RCAF Cyclone Down

[Jean-Pierre]

No disrespect, but are you sure that’s a question you want to ask after 2013?

FWIW, I wouldn’t hesitate to ride with 440 Sqn or Borek. Now, can you show some respect and stop with the military/non-military pilot nonsense?

I didn't bring up the military/non-milatary topic I'm just responding to some post above. It was said there is no civilian equivalent to military and I give an example with one. There are other example with civilian flying just as dangerous or more than military. Like forest fire fighting, crop spraying, heli-logging. This is in peacetime mind you. During war when people are trying everything they can to kill you then there is no equivalent in civilian flying other than maybe humanitarian flying in some violent place.

[Gannet167]

I didn't bring up the military/non-milatary topic I'm just responding to some post above. It was said there is no civilian equivalent to military and I give an example with one. There are other example with civilian flying just as dangerous or more than military. Like forest fire fighting, crop spraying, heli-logging. This is in peacetime mind you. During war when people are trying everything they can to kill you then there is no equivalent in civilian flying other than maybe humanitarian flying in some violent place.

In peacetime, no civies are hoisting from a rolling ship in high winds and sea state, icing up, at night, on nvg, a few hundred miles off shore, at bingo fuel. Firefighters aren’t flying low level letdown profiles requiring high g inverted dives close to the ground. It would be uncommon for civies to fly in formation at 500 kts, 250’ agl. Few civies have a crew day and crew rest rules (often broken) that the military uses - until they’re waived and the military crew extends to 26 hours etc. We all have jobs to do with associated risks. To say that military aren’t facing heightened risks in many of the daily flight profiles (in peace time) is not an accurate or informed statement.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Best part of non military flying, I don't have to write PER's

[SAR_YQQ]

Amen BPF - I wrote 15 this year and signed 32. But at least I got to fly a bit too.

[co-joe]

How much do orders play into PDM in the military. Does "I order you to do this mission", take precedence over "I don't feel safe doing this mission under these conditions"?

Ultimately the AC makes the final call to fly or not. We utilize a MALA (Mission Acceptance Launch Authority) matrix to determine risk and if risk is too high for the AC to self-authorize, he/she must seek higher authority. I’ve routinely had SAR pilots call me at night asking for authority to launch due to variable X.

That's positive. Not being military, I assumed that you do what you're told and that's that, and if you don't like it there's a cushy desk waiting for you .

Just to confirm terminology, Maritime Surface and Sub-Surface Officers (MARS)?

[Gannet167]

That's positive. Not being military, I assumed that you do what you're told and that's that, and if you don't like it there's a cushy desk waiting for you .

It depends. There are circumstances where the direction to fly your mission may come from higher levels, and you go. You do not, not go. There are circumstances where you say no and stand by your decision in the face of pressure. It's complicated and depends on who has command and to what degree. Ultimately, you can be ordered.

[SAR_YQQ]

There are circumstances where you say no and stand by your decision in the face of pressure. It's complicated and depends on who has command and to what degree. Ultimately, you can be ordered.

To be clear, as a flying supervisor, I would never pressure aircrew to fly a mission - nor have I ever seen such pressure exerted on aircrew. Ultimately the authority resides within the AC to fly, he cannot be ordered to fly against his will. If his objections to fly are nefarious or without merit, he will face consequences for sure. If the reasons are due to mission safety, aircraft serviceability or weather - the AC will always be protected.

[Gannet167]

I wish it worked like that everywhere.

[Heliian]

From the sounds of it now, being military or civilian had no bearing on this crash. Making poor decisions is universal.

Someone is now saying this happened during a "high speed, low level" photo op pass.

It's 2020 and still people push the limits to the end, for no good reason.

[AuxBatOn]

From the sounds of it now, being military or civilian had no bearing on this crash. Making poor decisions is universal.

Someone is now saying this happened during a "high speed, low level" photo op pass.

It's 2020 and still people push the limits to the end, for no good reason.

What if they did this within the limits of the aircraft and the rules?

[Heliian]

From the sounds of it now, being military or civilian had no bearing on this crash. Making poor decisions is universal.

Someone is now saying this happened during a "high speed, low level" photo op pass.

It's 2020 and still people push the limits to the end, for no good reason.

What if they did this within the limits of the aircraft and the rules?

Oh, for sure the intention was to keep it all in the green, just like many other collisions with terrain during low passes.

When you take away your margin for error, any mistake can be fatal. Helicopters have a tendency to sink fast and you can't just jerk back on the controls like an airplane to gain altitude. There is a very good reason why most HV diagrams prohibit low level, high speed flight.

Now, since this cyclone was fly by wire, it's possible that even if you did jerk on the controls, the inputs would be muted by the system to keep the aircraft from destroying itself.

One scenario I could see happening is if the aircraft made too steep of an approach for the deck and collided with the surface before the descent could be arrested. Maybe they were trailing a sonobuoy still? Maybe they had a triple computer failure.

In any case, it's just a tragedy to lose a crew during what should be a benign training sortie.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Someone is now saying this happened during a "high speed, low level" photo op pass.

If true, its a good thing for the investigation, for a photo op pass means photos of the crash, or even better, videos.....

[Jean-Pierre]

If true that is very sad. I feel terrible for the innocent passenger on board who had no say in the stunt. The record for lowest pass has been set and can not be beat. And 3000 meter below the ocean does not count.

[7ECA]

The story also keeps changing in the media, first it was the helicopter crashed during training near one of the Greek Islands, then it was within 2 miles of the HMCS Fredericton when it suddenly crashed - then later it was less than 2 kilometres away...

There's something very odd about this whole situation, certainly the lack of any definitive release as to where the helicopter was in relation to the Fredericton and what was going on, makes it seem as though the military or the Government are trying to bury facts.

[mijbil]

The story also keeps changing in the media, first it was the helicopter crashed during training near one of the Greek Islands, then it was within 2 miles of the HMCS Fredericton when it suddenly crashed - then later it was less than 2 kilometres away...

There's something very odd about this whole situation, certainly the lack of any definitive release as to where the helicopter was in relation to the Fredericton and what was going on, makes it seem as though the military or the Government are trying to bury facts.

For starters, it's the media. How often do they get the crucial details wrong? The cynic in me says every time they do a 'story'. For the just the facts part, you will have to wait for the FSR = mil equivalent of an SMS report. The detailed one can take ages. It's soooo tempting to regurgitate what you heard via the grapevine, but it's best to just wait.
Here is an example: One fine day in Moose Jaw a student on trip #1 with his instructor in the back with the canopy closed and the seats armed and just about to taxi - ejected. We all figured that the kid was fiddling with the ejection handle and accidentally pulled it a little too far. It was the consensus of most of us Monday morning QBs that that was the only way it could happen. Flash forward and the report comes out and finds that he ejected by turning his head to clear left. Whaaat? On the Hornet, there is a thin piece of material sewn around the loop of the ejection handle. You could drive your fingers through it if required, like in an actual ejection. It prevents anything from getting entangled with the ejection loop. On the Harvard II there is no such material. The loop is open. The instructor will watch you do most of the preflight on flight #1 (CH1) but when it comes time to hop in you're basically on your own and hopefully learned it well enough in the sims. Like any ejection seat aircraft, you literally tie into it. Your oxygen hose clips into part of your harness on the right and then you connect the O2 hose and the comms cord to the airplane. Somehow the kid managed to feed the comms cord THROUGH the ejection handle loop. Arm the seat, start the engine, get the ATIS etc, taxi clearance, clear left and BOOM....start your impromtu parachute lesson.
I know the guy who led the FS investigation. In fact he is one of my resume references. He told me the full back story. The kid had no idea how it happened and swore he wasn't playing with the ejection handle. Kid was telling the truth. Reason they knew? They found small chunks of the insulation of the comms cord embedded in the ejection loop. Accidental ejection, but you had to wait for the FS team to do their thing.
Sidebar note: I also know the instructor who was in the back when it happened. He got minor burns from the rocket blast of the seat since he hadn't clipped his mask on fully. It certainly got his attention. "So what did you do"? "Well, I shut down the airplane called the tower and called it a day in a nutshell." "What did you give the student for ground handling on the assessment card, a zero or a five?"
I'll let you guys fill in the blank

Wait for the FSR and no the government will not bury this one. Check back to this link from time to time.
http://airforce.forces.gc.ca/en/flight- ... ports.page

[Dry Guy]

Terrible design that someone turning their head could exert enough force to activate the handle.

[TT1900]

The story also keeps changing in the media, first it was the helicopter crashed during training near one of the Greek Islands, then it was within 2 miles of the HMCS Fredericton when it suddenly crashed - then later it was less than 2 kilometres away...

Perhaps it’s because the media runs with whatever they’re given and do very little verification before publishing. Notice how in the first story run they pushed out all sorts of info, but the only official response from DND was that contact with a Cyclone has been lost.

As others have said, wait for the FSR. That goes double for those jumping to conclusions about “low-passes” and “stunts”. Very naive comments.

[mijbil]

by Dry Guy » Wed May 13, 2020 12:37 pm

Terrible design that someone turning their head could exert enough force to activate the handle.

That thing always made me nervous. I flew a little bowlegged. I'd have to ask around as to the "fix" or what we called 'preventative measure'. A simple one would have been to install a piece of fabric around the loop just like the Hornet. Getting that approved via the mil bureaucracy and then putting out tenders to produce the fix.....well that's probably a story of bureaucracy run wild which in its own way is the 30 years back story to the Cyclone replacement of the 55 year old Sea King.

[TT1900]

by Dry Guy » Wed May 13, 2020 12:37 pm

Terrible design that someone turning their head could exert enough force to activate the handle.

That thing always made me nervous. I flew a little bowlegged. I'd have to ask around as to the "fix" or what we called 'preventative measure'. A simple one would have been to install a piece of fabric around the loop just like the Hornet. Getting that approved via the mil bureaucracy and then putting out tenders to produce the fix.....well that's probably a story of bureaucracy run wild which in its own way is the 30 years back story to the Cyclone replacement of the 55 year old Sea King.

Comm cord was shortened to a length that precludes it being able to go through the handle.

[Heliian]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cyclon ... -1.5566656

A gathering of what is known so far.

The DND has confirmed there are witnesses to the crash. The government has been extremely slow and/or cautious about the information it releases but with the cvr and fdr already downloaded I'm sure they have a good start to their investigation, not to mention whatever other telemetry they would have been receiving from the aircraft leading up to the accident.

[7ECA]

The government has been extremely slow and/or cautious about the information it releases...

The Government is going to be under a fair bit of scrutiny, if it turns out this was either caused by a gearbox issue or the known fault with the FBW computer(s), then there's going to be an inquisition. Well, there should be an inquisition if the cause of the accident ends up being partly to blame on standard government-dumb-fuckery and procurement processes that take decades.

And yes, I'm fully aware that I've said inquisition rather than inquiry - that's intended.

[Gear Jerker]

You could probably count on one hand, in the history of aviation, how many times the media has reported useful, accurate, and contextually relevant information regarding an aviation incident - especially soon after the occurrence.

At my airline, a CBC reporter with a deadline published an article about a crew conducting a routine go around, and included a quote from a passenger who declared that they almost died. This passenger had no aviation background. In fact, the approach became unstable, and the go around led to a subsequent stable approach. IE a crew followed SOP's perfectly.

Point being, let's view ANYTHING in the media regarding our fallen brethren through several layers of course rock salt.

In time, we will know what happened, and aviation safety will advance incrementally through whatever lessons there are to learn.

[OldTracker]

Not a bad write up of operation ending today here:
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/military-ends ... 38505.html

[boeingboy]

Update from the recorders. Not much but it seems whatever happened was unexpected.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/m ... r-BB15cMHg

[Heliian]

Update from the recorders. Not much but it seems whatever happened was unexpected.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/m ... r-BB15cMHg

Oh, it's all there, the fdr will provide an excellent picture of the final moments of flight.

From RCAF:

"During the return for recovery, the aircraft made a pass on the port side of the ship, from stern to bow. The aircraft then executed a left hand turn to establish a downwind leg in preparation for approach to the ship. Astern and inside the control zone of the ship, the aircraft commenced a final left turn to set-up for the approach. During this final complex manoeuvring turn to close with the ship, the aircraft did not respond as the crew would have anticipated. This event occurred at a low altitude, was unrecoverable and the aircraft entered a high energy descent and impacted the water astern the ship."

This sounds like servo transparency or settling with power(not to be confused with VRS).