Lufthansa May file for bankruptcy

[boeingboy]

Lufthansa is on the cliffs edge now.....(like most airlines I'm sure.) It wont be the last either...
Airlines need bailouts - or it's going to be a really hard future.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/lu ... spartanntp

[gtappl]

Lufthansa is on the cliffs edge now.....(like most airlines I'm sure.) It wont be the last either...
Airlines need bailouts - or it's going to be a really hard future.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/lu ... spartanntp

I'm actually seeing CANADIANS whining that the airlines got huge bailouts and wasted their money, I ask for examples and they point to articles about AMERICAN AIRLINES and United and seem to forget what country we live in.

I doubt AC we will get a bailout here :/

[Daniel Cooper]

The general public despises airlines here. At some point we need to do some soul searching and figure out why that is. I'm sure many people here will say it's "entitlement" though. It's not a worldwide phenomenon though. There are places in Asia for example where people love their airlines. The staff they interact with during their travel are kind, pleasant, and helpful. It doesn't take a lot.

[Boreas]

The general public has seen airline profits increase while their legroom has decreased, and while they've had to fork over additional cash for baggage fees, fuel surcharges and meals.

The general public is quasi aware of the shenanigans the current duopoly in Canada has been pulling. They are opposed a bailout because they're aware AC is one of the most profitable airlines in the world, at their expense.

[mbav8r]

The general public has seen airline profits increase while their legroom has decreased, and while they've had to fork over additional cash for baggage fees, fuel surcharges and meals.

The general public is quasi aware of the shenanigans the current duopoly in Canada has been pulling. They are opposed a bailout because they're aware AC is one of the most profitable airlines in the world, at their expense.

At their expense!
It’s a business who’s goal is to make money!
The CFL wants 150 million bailout if the season is cancelled due to government imposed restrictions, they are not the only industry with their hands out. How about the rent being covered for business, etc.
How about the 1.7 billion for the oil industry? Every sector is suffering and so far no mention of airline specific bailout!

[Boreas]

It’s a business who’s goal is to make money!

You're right, it is a business. Stop pretending like the airlines are a socialized state entity... only when things are bad, of course.

[nottellin]

It’s a business who’s goal is to make money!

You're right, it is a business. Stop pretending like the airlines are a socialized state entity... only when things are bad, of course.

It seems everybody and everything is a social state entity these days with their hands out.

Nothing can fail.

[Gino Under]

Virgin Atlantic are about to go down as well.
Undoubtedly, more to come.

https://simpleflying.com/virgin-atlanti ... -survival/

Gino Under

[dhc#]

It's a worldwide CTRL--ALT--DEL for airlines.

[sanjet]

Airlines, specially in Canada, are probably the most hated industry no matter where you live in Canada. Doesn’t help airlines refuse to refund tickets for cancelled flights and give credits instead.

The CEWS is probably the better way to bail out companies undercover.

[boeingboy]

Airlines, specially in Canada, are probably the most hated industry no matter where you live in Canada. Doesn’t help airlines refuse to refund tickets for cancelled flights and give credits instead.

...and why should they? If they give refunds - they will collapse. This was completely out of their control. As such - the government should be bailing them out.

The CEWS is probably the better way to bail out companies undercover.

That's a ridiculous statement. The CEWS does nothing for a company that's not operating.

[montado]

Airlines, specially in Canada, are probably the most hated industry no matter where you live in Canada. Doesn’t help airlines refuse to refund tickets for cancelled flights and give credits instead.

...and why should they? If they give refunds - they will collapse. This was completely out of their control. As such - the government should be bailing them out.

The CEWS is probably the better way to bail out companies undercover.

That's a ridiculous statement. The CEWS does nothing for a company that's not operating.

Why should a company refund borrowed money they are holding onto for a service they can no longer provide? How is it that an airlines accounting principals have expensed all this air travel that has not even taken place? I don't know of any other industry where I would pay for goods or services and not receive a refund if I'm not able to use them... Ah maybe lost or stolen gift cards, that's the only one I can think of.

[goldeneagle]

...and why should they? If they give refunds - they will collapse.

They didn't deliver the product they sold. Every other company in Canada is required by law to give refunds for products not delivered.

In essense, the airlines have interest free loans from the customers when the 'refund' comes in the form of a voucher with customer may or may not be able to use over time. Some of them will not be able to finance the rest of a holiday, so voucher will expire worthless. Other customers will die before they get to use it. All of those unused vouchers become a 'gift'.

I may feel different if our airlines were like the ones in the US, and gave refunds for product not delivered, but as long as they hold onto that money then they dont need or deserve any form of bailout.

If giving refunds for product not delivered causes them to collapse, they were living on borrowed money and time to begin with.

[florch]

Lufthansa is on the cliffs edge now.....(like most airlines I'm sure.) It wont be the last either...
Airlines need bailouts - or it's going to be a really hard future.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/lu ... spartanntp

I wonder if bankruptcy will be used to open up contracts and give everyone a haircut. If so, expect others to follow the example. I'm not saying I like it or support it, just that I've seen some history.

[FL320]

Lufthansa is on the cliffs edge now.....(like most airlines I'm sure.) It wont be the last either...
Airlines need bailouts - or it's going to be a really hard future.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/lu ... spartanntp

I wonder if bankruptcy will be used to open up contracts and give everyone a haircut. If so, expect others to follow the example. I'm not saying I like it or support it, just that I've seen some history.

We switched to an employer market and they will ask for concessions. Since half of the airlines union members were hired recently they will massively vote yes to any haircut just to keep their jobs (most still on flat pay).

[montado]

Lufthansa is on the cliffs edge now.....(like most airlines I'm sure.) It wont be the last either...
Airlines need bailouts - or it's going to be a really hard future.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/lu ... spartanntp

I wonder if bankruptcy will be used to open up contracts and give everyone a haircut. If so, expect others to follow the example. I'm not saying I like it or support it, just that I've seen some history.

We switched to an employer market and they will ask for concessions. Since half of the airlines union members were hired recently they will massively vote yes to any haircut just to keep their jobs (most still on flat pay).

We could just do a C scale... You know the A scale had a 2 year flat pay, then the B scale millennials got the 4 year flat pay and no DB pension.... we could take the next generation of pilots and do 6 year flat pay, no pension!

[Eric Janson]

Lufthansa is on the cliffs edge now.....(like most airlines I'm sure.) It wont be the last either...
Airlines need bailouts - or it's going to be a really hard future.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/lu ... spartanntp

I wonder if bankruptcy will be used to open up contracts and give everyone a haircut. If so, expect others to follow the example. I'm not saying I like it or support it, just that I've seen some history.

I was also wondering if this was going to happen - I'm not an expert on Bankruptcy (works differently in different countries).

There may come a point where Bankruptcy may be cheaper than continuing operations.

I believe this option is on the table at Lufthansa because any bailout comes with a number of conditions that are not acceptable to the Lufthansa Management.

I'd be surprised if this was allowed to happen - but we're living in a different World. All bets are off imho.

[ayseven]

Well they told me they were still going to pay my refund on my flights that got cancelled in late March. I am not holding my breath. And here I was looking forward to business class...

[goingnowherefast]

I wonder if bankruptcy will be used to open up contracts and give everyone a haircut. If so, expect others to follow the example. I'm not saying I like it or support it, just that I've seen some history.

We switched to an employer market and they will ask for concessions. Since half of the airlines union members were hired recently they will massively vote yes to any haircut just to keep their jobs (most still on flat pay).

We could just do a C scale... You know the A scale had a 2 year flat pay, then the B scale millennials got the 4 year flat pay and no DB pension.... we could take the next generation of pilots and do 6 year flat pay, no pension!

Don't they remember the mess they were in just a few months ago with not enough pilots? Hopefully they remember it was a primarily a PAY shortage and few people actually wanted to be pilots for the crap conditions. I know executives are short sighted, but holy crap, we're talking about February.

[dhc#]

More on Lufthansa's plans

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/l ... 82.article

[boeingboy]

Looks like Lufty will get a bailout after all. Seems like a fair deal for all sides...

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstor ... li=AAgh0dA

The bailout comprises an equity injection by the government, which will take a 20% stake by buying new shares at the nominal value of 2.56 euros apiece or for a total of about 300 million euros. The WSF plans to sell its shareholding by end-2023.

Separately, the WSF will make a capital contribution of 5.7 billion euros in the form of a so-called silent stake, which is unlimited in duration and can be terminated by company on a quarterly basis in whole or in part.

A part of that silent stake can be swapped into an additional 5% equity stake if Lufthansa does not pay the coupon or Germany moves to protect Lufthansa against a takeover.

[The Hammer]

Airlines, specially in Canada, are probably the most hated industry no matter where you live in Canada. Doesn’t help airlines refuse to refund tickets for cancelled flights and give credits instead.

...and why should they? If they give refunds - they will collapse. This was completely out of their control. As such - the government should be bailing them out.

The CEWS is probably the better way to bail out companies undercover.

That's a ridiculous statement. The CEWS does nothing for a company that's not operating.

Why shouldn't they refund for cancelled flights? They cancelled many flights because it wasn't profitable, not because people couldn't legally travel. There are still international flights inbound to YYZ from destinations/countries AC no longer chooses to serve.

Refunding the fares is not an option in the US and Europe. When the US does a better job of protecting the general public vs a Corporation than Canada we have a problem. I shouldn't get better prices and protection by driving to Buffalo.

If it's international travel for a family the $$$$ are significant and they have to avoid a financial crisis too. It could be years before they can afford to travel again and I'm curious to see what fares look like post COVID. The credit may not even cover the flights they initially booked. Not everyone travels to play tourist.

This is why Canadians hate airlines.......

[boeingboy]

Why shouldn't they refund for cancelled flights? They cancelled many flights because it wasn't profitable, not because people couldn't legally travel. There are still international flights inbound to YYZ from destinations/countries AC no longer chooses to serve.

Refunding the fares is not an option in the US and Europe. When the US does a better job of protecting the general public vs a Corporation than Canada we have a problem. I shouldn't get better prices and protection by driving to Buffalo.

If it's international travel for a family the $$$$ are significant and they have to avoid a financial crisis too. It could be years before they can afford to travel again and I'm curious to see what fares look like post COVID. The credit may not even cover the flights they initially booked. Not everyone travels to play tourist.

This is why Canadians hate airlines.......

Just how out of touch are you?

Your first statement is completely false. The government closed the boarders to all non-citizens...as did most if not all other countries. That was not within the airlines control. That is still the case. If they refund all the money to people now - they would all go broke. I'm not even sure there would be enough to cover everyone right now as no-one knows how long this will go on. Canada would be left with no airlines. You can't just let an entire sector with hundreds of thousands of people disappear. Some countries are about to re-open and Aircanada, Sunwing and Transat are preparing to start ops again.....I don't know how successful that will be if the Canadian government keeps imposing this 2 week quarantine though.

As for the US - The airlines there made the same plea so, quite quickly, the government gave them Billions - it ensure no one was laid off and to help issue those refunds. If Trudeau gave each airline in Canada a Billion dollars and said pay back the people - I have no issue with that.

The final word I have is the insanely cheap mentality of the public. Since I was knee high to a grasshopper - my parents always told me to buy cancellation insurance in case something happens. However most people are so cheap they don't want to spend the extra 50 - 150 dollars. The people that did buy insurance have gotten a refund, Those that didn't are the winers complaining their life is so bad and the industry is evil. I watched a report on the local news the other night and they asked people about the fact that due to new restrictions (like blocking out half the seats) airfares could double. 2 out of the 3 people said that was outrageous and that they pay too much already!

Really?? That $800 dollar ticket to Europe barely gets the engine started never mind a 9 or 10 hour flight. People have no idea how much these things actually cost.

[mixturerich]

Oh the public is the worst. Totally entitled. Especially the young crowd. They forget the fact that they are flying in a $300 million state-of-the-art machine at 500mph in the thin upper atmosphere where it’s -50 and impossible to breath, made safe for them using advanced technology and stringent training standards.

But they expect a cheap ticket to Southeast Asia or Europe and wear sweatpants and wifebeaters and complain about how there’s crappy legroom, as if it isn’t better than than taking a boat across the ocean for weeks.

[ayseven]

You are forgetting that right or wrong, the flying public pays the freight. I am not particularly happy about being out $4850 for two tickets to Europe that got cancelled for this outbreak; and though i was told by phone Lufthansa would refund, they have not contacted me at all. It is your attitude towards the paying public that makes us dislike airlines. Bait and switch, nickel and diming: $50 for this, $50 for that, tax, fuel surcharges, and all the other crap you add on, plus the inadequate air conditioning in summer (how much does it cost to cool the fricken plane to a human level?) makes for a frustrating experience for the guy with the wallet. How much? TOTAL. Thanks. I will, or will not pay that. Why is that so hard?

Customers can sense your disdain for us. We choose our airlines accordingly.