Flight training with masks?

[Cessna 180]

There's nothing the province can do to stop a flight training unit from opening. In fact, they never had to close. They're federally regulated, like an airline. Flight schools all around Ontario are opening (or are already open).

[photofly]

Not true. Ontario׳s Emergency Management and Civil Protections Act - which is being used -give the province the power to close any business premises they wish. Specifically:

Under s. 7.0.2(4) of the EMCPA, Cabinet may, among other things:

“[r]egulat[e] or prohibit[] travel or movement to, from or within any specified area” (s. 7.0.2(4)2);
“[e]stablish[] facilities for the care, welfare, safety and shelter of individuals, including emergency shelters and hospitals” (s. 7.0.2(4)4);
“[c]los[e] any place, whether public or private, including any business, office, school, hospital or other establishment or institution” (s. 7.0.2(4)5);

The flight training part Is federally regulated, but you can’t train people if your premises are shut by law. More generally, although flight training is federally regulated, not every aspect of an FTU is outside the province’s reach: employment law, business registration, sales tax, health and safety, are all within the province’s jurisdiction.

The full act is here:
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/ ... -c-e9.html

It’s actually the federal government that has no power to close an FTU for health reasons.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

An exhale valve is exactly what you don’t want. Masks are typically designed to filter inbound air, and if that’s what you want then an exhale valve makes perfect sense. If you are protecting yourself from particulates in the air it makes no sense to filter when you breathe out.

But with COVID-19 you are trying to prevent droplets generated in your mouth and lungs spraying out when you breathe out. So you need filtration for the out-breaths. That would be defeated by an exhale valve.

Quite true - but if my glasses fog up wearing a mask without a valve, my breath must therefore be going out the top of the mask to some extent regardless. One could say that fog on your glasses is also proof that the mask is ineffective, and the valve simply redirects the flow away from the eyes, and the valve would still limit the velocity and range of exhaled droplets.

It's not my glasses fogging up that I'm concerned about - I wear contacts while flying, generally. It's finding one that I can comfortably wear (read: one that doesn't hurt me) for hours at a time. I actually haven't tried cloth masks yet, I haven't found one that fits. I have a couple that are made from old donated medical scrubs and pinch around the nose quite well, but still, a bit too small for me, and they do fog up my glasses. I'm still looking.

Now, if both occupants were wearing masks with exhale valves they would still serve their intended purpose I think. They're tough to find though. The cabin would still need to be disinfected, however I assume that is already a normal procedure now.

I've worn plenty of respirators before, but of course, they were all designed to keep nasty stuff from coming in, and all had adjustable rubber straps. They're a bit much for flight training methinks. No issue with an O2 mask - those have exhale valves, and are only designed to be used for 15 minutes or so.

[praveen4143]

Quite true - but if my glasses fog up wearing a mask without a valve, my breath must therefore be going out the top of the mask to some extent regardless. One could say that fog on your glasses is also proof that the mask is ineffective, and the valve simply redirects the flow away from the eyes, and the valve would still limit the velocity and range of exhaled droplets.

Quoted from Health Canada - “Masks with exhalation valves are not recommended, because they don't protect others from COVID-19 and don't limit the spread of the virus.”

Link - https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/ ... rings.html

[Transjet]

I've found its easiest to not live in fear of something that has a death rate of less 1% and don't wear a mask.

[koto]

I had my first lesson since my flight school opened on Sunday. Instructor and I both wore masks and I had sunglasses on too. I also have a larger head and had zero issues. I just wore a disposable surgical mask. Was I very happy to take it off after about 2 hours of wearing it? Absolutely! But it meant that I could fly again so it was well worth it.

[2R]

I've found its easiest to not live in fear of something that has a death rate of less 1% and don't wear a mask.

Where did you get that 1 % death rate from ?

10 million infections 500,000 deaths from Reuters might indicate 1% is not accurate . Many of those who have recovered are not in good health after the infection , due to organ damage . Thirty percent of those in ICUs now under forty . So if you think this disease is just a granny killer , think again . Pay attention , according to the WHO it is only getting started , the worse is yet to come .

Anyone know what the size of COVID 19 virus is ?

[photofly]

I've found its easiest to not live in fear of something that has a death rate of less 1% and don't wear a mask.

You may find it's easiest to be told not to bother turning up for lessons then

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Quoted from Health Canada - “Masks with exhalation valves are not recommended, because they don't protect others from COVID-19 and don't limit the spread of the virus.”
Link - https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/ ... rings.html

Ah yes, the Appeal To Authority argument. This is the same agency that, until April, incredulously recommended we all not wear masks of any kind. So while I'll take what they say into consideration, I'll take it with a grain of salt.

Using an exhalation valve is no worse than using a mask that doesn't seal around the nose (which in my experience, is all of them, if the fog on my glasses is any indicator), and vastly better than wearing a mask and not covering your nose, which I see everywhere (and I wear glasses, so I get why people do it - it's better than nothing), in my admittedly uninformed opinion. Beyond that, I have my doubts regarding the effectiveness of masks after two hours in such an enclosed space with so little air circulation, and where you cannot avoid touching the same controls and checklists sooner or later. I'll wear one regardless, even if only to assuage the fears of others, and of course, I may be wrong in my suspicion that masks aren't effective in a flight training environment.

All that said, it's a non-issue regardless, at least for me - I just wear contacts. Bingo bango bongo, no issue with fog on my glasses. But the issue of the masks being painful persists. Wearing a mask for half an hour in a grocery store or DMV lineup is not an issue for me. But during a two hour flight, they become quite painful for me. Not just sore ears - downright painful. I'm still searching for something that works for me.

[Pilotdaddy]

My wife sewed me a pair of cotton masks, with straps that you can tie behind your head. Since they don't clamp to the back of your ear and can adjust the tightness of the straps, I find them much better fitting and not as painful as the N95s. I, too, have a big head and can relate to the pain of having to wear ones that strap behind your ear.

[Kejidog]

Sewn masks? Cloth masks? Maybe we should just pull our shirts up over our faces? Not a fan of a mask and due to what I do as a first responder can not see the benefit of one. Maybe some responsibility on the personal level? If you’re sick don’t get into a confined space with another person. That includes a cold or any other type of illness. Seriously how often do you think anyone cleans those home made jobbies? Or replaces the paper ones? Just like security making you remove your shoes at preboarding. It is theater and a waste of time. And please don’t try to “educate” me on the asymptotic super spreader bull. My last commercial flight in early june westjet made us “wear” masks. But then gave us water bottles and food........... so i slowly sipped my water from Toronto to BC. Absurd. But hey we’re “saving lives”.

Panicdemic in my small survey sample as a first responder.

[Pilotdaddy]

Ok, as a first responder and an expert on this matter, you've convinced me that my cloth mask (and all masks of any nature, actually) are useless.

I will now stop wearing masks and not buy into the panicdemic as you called it. Oh, and asymptomatic spread is purely a myth and the world is definitely better if everyone isn't wearing a mask. It's nothing but theatre and a waste of time indeed.

[Aviatard]

Not a fan of a mask and due to what I do as a first responder can not see the benefit of one.

What does a first responder do that makes you skeptical of masks?

[photofly]

Not a fan of a mask and due to what I do as a first responder can not see the benefit of one.

That sounds like a tow-truck driver saying he doesn't believe that brakes in cars are worthwhile because every car he sees at work has been crashed.

Masks, like every other epidemiological response, are probabalistic in nature. if you can reduce the probability of transmission by 15% by wearing a mask - any kind - and the probably of transmission by 17% by staying 6' away from someone, and by 32% by not going out as much as you used to, then you've reduced the probability of transmission by 78%. That can make the difference between exponential growth, and exponential decay.

Every individual who forms their own opinion that "they don't see the benefit" or wants to make a point about how they're braver, smarter, and more in-the-know by not wearing one around others, misses the point. Even if they reduce the risk of transmission by only one half of one percent, that's still worth doing.

[HavaJava]

Airlines do not require crew to wear masks on the flight deck. Don’t know why they need to be worn during training.

I would be looking for a like-minded instructor who would remove their mask when out of sight of the panicky public.

[Kejidog]

Wow. Sorry to trigger the meltdown of society. As i stated i do not see the benefit of a home made dirty sewn mask made from a piece of cotton. I don’t claim to be an expert, unlike all the armchair epidemiologists on here. I didn’t claim to be an expert i just stated my experience with 30 years in the field. If my opinion is so radical to unleash all this self important crybabism. I guess i will continue to fly my aircraft with people who are not afraid of a chest cold, and let the rest of you all cower in fear and follow blindly the “rules” created by mommy and daddy government. Have a nice day snowflakes.

[photofly]

ATAC guidelines for the flight training industry are to use respiratory protection when it is not possible to maintain physical distance requirements. The responsible Flight Training Unit will follow its own industry guidelines.

This is not about panic. This is about having everyone's cooperation in achieving what may only be a modest reduction in infection rates. However, even a modest reduction is worthwhile.

It's regrettable that people see this as a (frankly, childish) opportunity to polish and display their non-conformist credentials.

[Pilotdaddy]

Wow. Sorry to trigger the meltdown of society. As i stated i do not see the benefit of a home made dirty sewn mask made from a piece of cotton. I don’t claim to be an expert, unlike all the armchair epidemiologists on here. I didn’t claim to be an expert i just stated my experience with 30 years in the field. If my opinion is so radical to unleash all this self important crybabism. I guess i will continue to fly my aircraft with people who are not afraid of a chest cold, and let the rest of you all cower in fear and follow blindly the “rules” created by mommy and daddy government. Have a nice day snowflakes.

The way I understood it, you wear a mask to protect others from your own droplets... You're not protecting yourself, necessarily. That's why cloth masks are just as effective as it stops the outgoing gunk from your mouth and nose into the air.

People wearing masks are out there protecting YOU, the older folk who are more likely to die from it. We're not necessarily wearing it to protect ourselves. If that makes me a snowflake for caring about the old people around me, then so be it.

Signed
Snowflake

[digits_]

Masks, like every other epidemiological response, are probabalistic in nature. if you can reduce the probability of transmission by 15% by wearing a mask - any kind - and the probably of transmission by 17% by staying 6' away from someone, and by 32% by not going out as much as you used to, then you've reduced the probability of transmission by 78%.

You mean you've reduced it by 52% if you do everything, right?

(0.85 * 0.83 * 0.68 = 0.48)

[photofly]

Yes. My error. (1.15*1.17*1.32 = 1.776 which is the wrong calculation.)

[Aviatard]

I didn’t claim to be an expert i just stated my experience with 30 years in the field.

Understood. You're a brave soul who won't be told what to do. You still didn't say what makes you skeptical of masks. Nothing, I guess.

[Canuck1988]

Airlines do not require crew to wear masks on the flight deck. Don’t know why they need to be worn during training.

I would be looking for a like-minded instructor who would remove their mask when out of sight of the panicky public.

I think one of the differences there is they need to be able to quickly don their O2 masks in case of an emergency. If you were wearing a mask, it would add an extra step when time of useful consciousness could be low.

[Kejidog]

I didn’t claim to be an expert i just stated my experience with 30 years in the field.

Understood. You're a brave soul who won't be told what to do. You still didn't say what makes you skeptical of masks. Nothing, I guess.

In my field. We put masks on sick people to keep them spreading the virus. Not healthy people to “save lives” or whatever the latest feel good bullshit statement around them is. Theater for the weak minded.

[FenderManDan]

I didn’t claim to be an expert i just stated my experience with 30 years in the field.

Understood. You're a brave soul who won't be told what to do. You still didn't say what makes you skeptical of masks. Nothing, I guess.

I don't think there is anything to do with being brave, Kejidog is just informed. We have the data about the virus and the measures and all that seems to be ignored by the conformist sheeple. Stop watching the fn tv and think for yourself. I did not see anyones heroic attempts to ("save lives" tm) from other corona or influenza viruses in the past.

I do agree about the social distancing since i don't want any of you unknowns near me anyways.
I do agree on good hand washing and general good personal hygiene and that is what i see lacking on a lot of folks that are touting wearing masks.

My 2c
Just let the fn thing run its course, the virus does not want to kill its host.

As per op topic: did TC mandate FTU to have masks on?

[photofly]

TC doesn’t have the authority to mandate health measures; it’s a provincial issue.

I actually very much don’t want this virus to “run its course”, exactly the opposite, in fact. I want stringent measures taken to prevent its spread. So does my entire family, many of whom are elderly, and many of whom work in healthcare.

I no more have any difficulty with asking you to wear a face covering of some kind in an enclosed space in public than I do asking you to drive on the right side of the road and stop at red lights. A little inconvenience for individuals is a public benefit for all.