Why I fly on WJ

[greenwich]

As most of you know I like WJ...and as most of you know by now I don't work for WJ.

So...

I'm flipping through the Globe and Mail (Canada's largest newspeper) today, and come across a 'full-page' advertisment on page six.

At first glance it appeared to be an AC advertisment, but when I read more I realised that it was an ad taken-out by the association that represents all of the ex-Canadian Airlines pilots that work at AC [yes, there's even an association that represents ex-Canadian Airlines pilots within AC].

According to this 'poor us' full-page ad, the seniority issue has come up again, and these poor ex-Canadian pilots are angry with AC for supposidly breaking a 'deal' that was made a few years ago regarding their seniority.

UNBELIEVABLE!

So this association pays $20,000, or more like $30,000, for the one-page spread in the Globe and Mail to let ALL of Canada know how screwed-over they are. And ironically, at the same time, letting all of Canada know how screwed-up AC is!!

Disgusting!

As I said: That's why I fly on WJ!!!

G

[sprucemonkey]

They should be happy to have those jobs.

[Mitch Cronin]

They should be happy to have those jobs.

I'm sure they are... but do you suppose that means they're happy with the prospect of perhaps losing some seniority?

[sprucemonkey]

I didn't know there was seniority in the EI lines.

[flyboeing]

They're screwing their company!

[Canus Chinookus]

they're the ones getting screwed and I fully support the ex-CAI guys!

[flingwing206]

Those sad sack CAI gang are lucky they didn't wind up flying a King Air out of Butthole, MB.

Their airline was dying, and they get rescued and screw the rescuers - and their mess of an airline wrecks AC.

Hope this gets adjusted so those CAI brats get put where they belong.

[complexintentions]

If AC/ACPA want to screw around endlessly with the process and try and re-open the seniority issue AGAIN then I say the ex-CAI guys/girls have every right to defend themsleves, with every means possible.

I saw the ad and I thought "right on". Don't sit there and take it - let the whole damn world know how twisted AC is. Maybe then something will change.

"Seniority in EI lines"?! oh what a load of bs. One company bought another, and that isn't going to change, with any amount of whining. Fast-forward to the present.

I fully support the ex-CAI guys. Comments like "they should be thankful for their jobs" are the height of paternal arrogance. As if being thankful for employment, can be equated with being thankful that an issue that was resolved by a judge is being challenged again!

flingwing, you say they "screwed the rescuers". By that, do you mean the OAC guys (the ones who are trying to re-open this can of worms, to be precise), are the "rescuers"?! I don't think so. Much as OAC would love to claim some exalted status, they're just employees like everyone else. They didn't "rescue" CDN, and if anything, they would probably have loved to see them "sink". You OAC supporters can't claim the high ground of "rescue" on the one hand, while trying to kick the ex-CAI guys to where you think they should be, on the other.

greenwich said:

According to this 'poor us' full-page ad, the seniority issue has come up again, and these poor ex-Canadian pilots are angry with AC for supposidly breaking a 'deal' that was made a few years ago regarding their seniority.

Well, actually it wasn't a "deal", it was a legal ruling made by a judge. "poor us"? Actually it had more of a "f=you we aren't going to take it" feel, than any self-pity, lol. But then again, I'm not even sure what the point of your hissy-fit was, other than to say how great WJ is...uh..ok. Get back to me when WJ has even one decade under it's belt, let alone about six.

Here's hoping some sort of compromise can be reached.

[flingwing206]

If AC/ACPA want to screw around endlessly with the process and try and re-open the seniority issue AGAIN then I say the ex-CAI guys/girls have every right to defend themsleves, with every means possible.

I saw the ad and I thought "right on". Don't sit there and take it - let the whole damn world know how twisted AC is. Maybe then something will change.

flingwing, you say they "screwed the rescuers". By that, do you mean the OAC guys (the ones who are trying to re-open this can of worms, to be precise), are the "rescuers"?! You OAC supporters can't claim the high ground of "rescue" on the one hand, while trying to kick the ex-CAI guys to where you think they should be, on the other.

Well, which is it, complex?? You tell the CAI group to not sit there and take it, but you want the OAC guys to not "open the can of worms" and defend their position?? They have the same right to "not sit there and take it"!!

Keller fumbled the ball thanks to McIssac's whining, and now the OAC fights back. Deal with it!

[N2]

I flew with CAI when ever possible and they were a great airline with super people working there. I hate to see anyone screwed over but in this day and age it's not surprising to see. I just resigned my managment position after being threatened with my girlfriends termination if she continued with her pregnancy.(we both worked at the same company) I tried to sue for constructive dismissal and under the human rights act but got nowhere. Laws simply don't work in this country so best to chin up and bare it! Hope they can all work this out together.

[Legacy]

Complex, I bet you attitude would be totally different if you were an AC pilot at the time of merger. Take agian on the outcome of that merger and what happened to the AC seniorities and you tell me if thats fair. Actually I use the term loosely when I say merger. You actually think AC had any intent of ever buying CAI?

[CID]

Their airline was dying, and they get rescued and screw the rescuers - and their mess of an airline wrecks AC.

Not totally accurate. Canadian was dying because Air Canada was killing it using predatory pricing. In other words they were killing Canadian by commiting suicide.

Air Canada destroyed the Canadian airline industry and Canadian Airlines using all but illegal practices that have proven to be non-sustaining.

[gelbisch]

Could it be that the OCP folks don't want the issue re-opened 'cause they hit jackpot last time 'round and have got nowhere to go from here but down? I think Flingwing got it right... why shouldn't the OAC folks be allowed to speak up and push for what they feel is right? The OCPs got themselves out of a "final and binding arbitration," so obviously the term is meaningless and shouldn't apply to the OAC pilots either.

[Dust Devil]

Their airline was dying, and they get rescued and screw the rescuers - and their mess of an airline wrecks AC.

Not totally accurate. Canadian was dying because Air Canada was killing it using predatory pricing. In other words they were killing Canadian by commiting suicide.

Air Canada destroyed the Canadian airline industry and Canadian Airlines using all but illegal practices that have proven to be non-sustaining.

Preditory pricing or competition? Would it be better if AC and Canadian banded togeather to fix their rates so they would be fairer to each other yet more expensive to the consumer. I put a big thumbs up to West Jet because they took both of the majors on and kicked their ass keeping the customers and emplyees happy the whole time.

[Turkey]

All I can say is, Thank God I don't work there. OAC, OCP, or other. I can't immagine a less healthy work environment. No thanks. You guys can have it. You poor souls.

And what's even worse, people are lining up at the door to join this. All of the OAC sons and daughters who are being hired right now. There's a whole new generation of OACers starting right now. It's not going to go away. Ever.

[CID]

Preditory pricing or competition?

Let me give you a little history lesson Dust Devil.

Competition is good. In fact it is mandatory for a healthy economy. However, when you start selling your product for below cost, you go beyond being "competitive" and enter the realm of predatory pricing. That is exactly what Air Canada has been doing for the last 15-20 years.

Air Canada employees will repeat the propaganda that their union reps tell them, namely that Air Canada was always profitible until they were forced to buy Canadian. That is a bunch of easily proved BS. Air Canada was well into the slide of insolvency by that time, covering up huge anual losses by selling off assets.

Would it be better if AC and Canadian banded togeather to fix their rates so they would be fairer to each other yet more expensive to the consumer.

In the 80's when Air Canada was converted from a Crown Corporation to a private company, the airlines were taking a whooping from high interest rates, unstable fuel prices, and deregulation. Many of the airlines were suffering financially but could have made it in the long run. But Air Canada came on the scene with its debt "zeroed" and tons of assets including airplanes, buildings, support vehicles etc etc. They used their leverage to kill the competition. They turned a zero debt airline with tons of assets into a bankrupt shell and dragged down the rest of industry with them. So YES. It would have been better in the long run to have higher prices. Fares are still too low and we in the industry are suffering for it.

I put a big thumbs up to West Jet because they took both of the majors on and kicked their ass keeping the customers and emplyees happy the whole time.

I agree somewhat. Westjet brought low prices into a market that was suffering with extremely high prices offered by the bloated players of the era. They did it by using really cheap (old) airplanes, lower labour rates and offering a no-frills service using the same forumla that Southwest airlines invented. Good for them!

Unfortunately Air Canada still had some creditors that were dumb enough to support their continued predatory pricing policy against Westjet. Right up until their bankruptcy and re-emergence as (again) a debt free company.

Now Westjet has brand new airplanes and higher costs to deal with as they try to compete against Air Canada's restructured scorched earth machine.

[complexintentions]

Could it be that the OCP folks don't want the issue re-opened 'cause they hit jackpot last time 'round and have got nowhere to go from here but down? I think Flingwing got it right... why shouldn't the OAC folks be allowed to speak up and push for what they feel is right? The OCPs got themselves out of a "final and binding arbitration," so obviously the term is meaningless and shouldn't apply to the OAC pilots either.

Hey, I never said the OAC kids couldn't do whatever they want, to try and improve their position. You're the one who started the thread by whining about the ex-CAI ad. You also stated that it's "disgusting" to see, and imply that it's destabilizing to the company. All I did was point out that this particular initiative (and the ad responding to it) are a result of OAC stirring the pot, and AC management trying to manipulate the situation, (as usual) by tying it to the new Boeing deal. Why do you even care if you can just go and fly on the sacred WestJet and avoid all of this sorry mess?

Well, which is it, complex?? You tell the CAI group to not sit there and take it, but you want the OAC guys to not "open the can of worms" and defend their position?? They have the same right to "not sit there and take it"!!

Keller fumbled the ball thanks to McIssac's whining, and now the OAC fights back. Deal with it!

Again, I never said that OAC couldn't open the can of worms - that's their right. But the first post tries to hang that on the ex-CAI guys for the Grope and Flail advertisement. The current shenanigans are sourced from the OAC gang that desperately wants to turn the clock back to about 1996.

I've got family and colleagues on both sides of this mess. And sorry, but my sympathies lie more with the former Team Blue. Why? Because the lines (in my situation) follow pretty strong demographic lines. The ex-CAI's are all older, senior guys (and one woman) who have decades into the industry, and will be retiring in a few years. The OAC that I know are all early mid-thirties guys who are pissed at seeing their quick progression stalled by the CAI acquisition. And when I listen to the two arguments, one seems about survival to retirement, while the other seems more about career aspirations. Nothing is ever this simple of course, but in general that is what it has broken down for me. Everyone for themself, I suppose. It's the Canadian aviation way.

Then there's the AC management, insinuating their oily selves into the situation, trying to leverage OAC vs ex-CAI for their own advantage, by tying this again to the 777/877 deal. That, to me, is far more disgusting, and will come back to bite them in the ass eventually. Absolutely zero leadership.

[CLguy]

This whole mess goes back many, many years. When AC was a Crown Corporation fed by the deep pocketed Liberal Government, they never had to turn a profit and secondly got all the plum routes that were off limits to the private companies such as CP and Wardair. Air Canada was granted the lucrative European routes while CP had to settle for the Asian routes, which AC didn't want. Then had to try and carve out a market and a profit. Domestically the same was happening. AC got the good ones and the other carriers got what was left.

Once AC was privatized and I do agree with CID, they had it all, money, no debt, lots of assets and the greed of wanting it all. Predatory pricing became the ways of the day after deregulation and it all came down to who could afford to lose money the longest would come up the winner. AC won but also paid a terrible price. They went in about 10 years, from owning over 30% of all their assets debt free, to today after bankrupcy protection and restructuring to owning less than 3%. Unfortunately the staff paid the biggest price when, once again the Liberal Government got involved and forced the buyout.

What we now have is nothing more than history repeating itself. Pilots got screwed on seniority numbers when PWA took over Transair and pilots got screwed on seniority numbers when PWA, Nordair, EPA and Wardair became Canadian Airlines. There will be and can be no winners in this. Whatever ruling comes forward there will be some group that feels they lost out.

It will take nothing but time to solve this issue, probably an entire generation.

[gelbisch]

Hey, I never said the OAC kids couldn't do whatever they want, to try and improve their position. You're the one who started the thread by whining about the ex-CAI ad.

Um, no I didn't.

You also stated that it's "disgusting" to see, and imply that it's destabilizing to the company.

Once again... no I didn't.

All I did was point out that this particular initiative (and the ad responding to it) are a result of OAC stirring the pot...

They're not stirring the pot... they're pursuing their own best interests. Contrary to what you believe, a lot of OAC guys/gals did get whammed pretty bad... and I think that those who weren't much affected are willing to go to the mat for what they think is right. Everyone's allowed to voice their opinion and fight what's proper in their mind.

I guess it's up to the arbitrator to decide what is right. Let's see how "final and binding" it is this time.



And once again... if the OCP folk believe they are in the right, why are they afraid to look at the issue again and have the opportunity to assert their arguments?

And while I do agree with you that the company's attempts to play one group off the other and manipulate the situation in any way possible are very poor, the fact remains that a lot of people voted "no" on the 777/787 deal just 'cause they didn't like it and are tired of concessions... not because of anything related to the seniority lists. I'm not saying that that didn't happen too... but let's not keep our heads in the sand.

[Blastor]

Okay, break it up. Nothing to see here




Camaraderie in the cockpit...

[CAPGEN]

Those sad sack CAI gang are lucky they didn't wind up flying a King Air out of Butthole, MB.

Hey! I live in Butthole, MB!

Why do I fly WJ? It's the 30 mins on hold you have to spend with Air Canada in order to change a ticket. Next time anyone has to do that, I encourage you to call the WJ customer service line, and when they pick up halfway through the first ring, it will help you make you next airline ticket purchase decision.

There's something to be said about "just trying hard."

[CID]

Just for the record folks, TCA/AC turned a profit for all but two years , the company put millions into the Feds pockets, The myth that they cost the taxpayer is just that, a myth.

Have you got some information to back that up? I remember when Air Canada's "budget" would be reviewed and passed with little argument. I don't recall them ever having a budget surplus at the end of the year.

I could be wrong. Maybe my memory isn't completely accurate, but I've having a hard time believing that statement.

[tripleseven]

Here's two reason's I fly Air Canada:

1. Aeroplan.
2. No stupid jokes.

[complexintentions]

gelbisch,

my apologies, I did indeed attribute comments made by greenwich, to you. My error. I stand by the rest of my post. I do agree, some OAC guys lost some ground. And I would also submit, so did some ex-CAI people (which led to some of them leaving for elsewhere, like EK). But the concept that the ex-CAI guys should just be happy to have jobs, just doesn't wash with me. I would feel exactly the same way had things gone the other way, with the attempted hostile takeover of AC by CAIL.

CLguy puts it best. There can be no winners in this. No matter what happens, someone will be unhappy and feel that they have suffered at the expense of someone else, and resent it. That's not a OAC or CAI thing, that's just human nature.

[CID]

2. No stupid jokes.

If the average Air Canada flight attendant tried to smile, her face would crack.