training bond

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:35 pm

....

Viva Las vegas.. woohoo

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:47 pm

Like DOC said.

This isn't a training bond issue as there is no bond. You are paying some sleaze ball a ridiculous amount of money to fly an even more ridiculous heap of junk!

Take your 35K down to Lost Wages Nevada, At least if your gonna get screwed, you might as well have some fun.

tumbleweed · Post by **tumbleweed** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:35 am

Wow Doc you are very bitter. Did you get declined? The longer I am in aviation the more I understand the need for a bond. It seems the guys who rant and rave the most about them are the reason that they came into place.

Rig Piggy you should check your facts the king air bond is not 12,000. I know some guys up that were up there and have left after a number of years. They are still positive about the time they spent up there.

The bond repayment is not taxed it is given as a separate check and noted as a loan repayment.

All of us should look at ourselves and ask when have we ever left a company for what ever reason and see if that was before the amount of time promised. I doubt any of us has stayed full duration at every company. Now you will justify your departure on the company being a bottom feeder, but nobody forced you to apply and nobody forced you to agree to the terms in the begining.

My friends enjoyed working at Air Nunavut, it is not for everyone and not everyday is good but they look back at it as a positive experience and they don't rule out returning someday if the curcumstances were right.

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:42 am

I've heard from a few people that the legality of training bonds is questionable -- I'm talking about a bond in which you do not front any money, but agree to cough up the full or a pro rata amount upon "early" resignation -- ie. you could walk away and even if they come after you would have a very difficult time ever getting a penny out of you.

Just curious... has anyone ever successfully evaded a bond they'd previously agreed to?

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:46 am

tumbleweed wrote:All of us should look at ourselves and ask when have we ever left a company for what ever reason and see if that was before the amount of time promised. I doubt any of us has stayed full duration at every company.

How long have you been in aviation???

Now my follow-up question to y'all is: how many of you have stayed far, far longer at a company than you'd ever have thought in your wildest nightmares? Both my hands go up. Not exactly an industry that typically offers a plethora of opportunities...

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:04 am

but nobody forced you to apply and nobody forced you to agree to the terms in the begining.

I do agree with this statement in principle, however....

how many times do you start at a company and everything looks like it's on the up-and-up, and after 6 months(or less) you realize that is not the case. When you interview somewhere, do you scrutinize the logbooks, interview the DOM to see how he handles "snags", interview the customers to see what kind of pressure you will be operating under, etc etc.

It seems to me that many of the companies that "need" bonds because of high turnover, need to look at themselves to figure out why the talent is going.

IMHO which is worth.....almost nothing!

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:18 am

There is a very simple way to make good money in this Industry.

I think I will announce the opening of a new airline operating Lear 35s'

I will advertise for pilots and charge an upfront $35,000 training fee which the company will promise to pay back.

So we will run a groundschool for say 20 pilots at 35 grand each........thats seven hundred grand which I will in turn charge the company the same amount in consulting fees and then declare bankruptcy without ever buying an airplane.

Anyone who needs cash up front is this sleasy.

ottopilot · Post by **ottopilot** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:41 pm

Doc

First of all i'm in maintenance and we had the balls and common sense not to screw everyone else over for a job. Theres my real thoughts. Some jack ass who started flying for free or started paying for bonds. those are the guys you should shit on not the owners. They are just looking out for the company's best interest. My training was free. So it's your career choice. And right seat meat is not true i've seen some of the fast upgrades here. Including on the jet. I mean you need about 3000 hours for capt on the jet but thats life. Build a bridge and get over it.

bamboo · Post by **bamboo** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:10 pm

The fact that he would not even entertain that says to me he is a control junkie, similiar to thre CP who wants you to wash his car etc...

Hey RP when did you buy a car? lol. What a @$%!

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:11 pm

kingair93......"my training was free".....then you wouldn'd have a clue, now would you?? You sing a song from the other side of the fence, my friend. Your training is free...but the dumb pilots should pay through the nose up front to join your merry band of men??? And this actually makes sence to you?? If you'd had to pony up over 30K to be there, would you? I mean, is it THAT good?? It's not you vs me here, 93, it's you vs every young pilot out there. I'm at a point I dont need to cough up big bucks "buying" a job....and that's what you expect of pilots...and I have never signed anything for anybody. And, since you're not even in the same boat as the pilots here, what's your interest in screwing them??

Requesting FL280 · Post by **Requesting FL280** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:14 pm

On 1 good note about the training bond there. I took out a bond at Air N. and they paid me monthly with interest and never held a red cent from me. I rececntly spoke with a banker at my local branch and because of my timely payments on that loan, I now have incredible credit. It's a shitty way to get some credit I know, but I guess what I'm getting at is that those of you with any doubts about the company in that regard, there will always be a bond cheque at the end of the month with your pay cheque. And as for "right seat meat". that's a load of crap. An F/O works hard there, but his upgrade comes fast.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:28 pm

FL280.....ther "right seat meat" comment was a little, over the top shall we say......I just dont think you should have to "buy" your jobs. I know, this makes me the "bad guy" but if all you kids would stick together and refuse to write a cheque for a job....then nobody would ever have to again. But, I've been around long enough to know tha pilots dont stick together. So, maybe I am "swinging at windmills"?
OKAY KIDS, IF YOU WANT TO BUY YOUR JOBS....HAVE AT IT!!! I dont really give a crap anymore! I don't GARA.....Hell, let he who can write the biggest cheque WIN!!! Because, that's what aviation is really all about. Just dont let me catch you reading "Fate is The Hunter", or pretending you got where you are through hard work and pride, because you DID NOT!! You BOUGHT yourself where you are.......Happy?

springjob · Post by **springjob** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:23 pm

There is still companies not requiring any bond. They just want your word, but these are very hard to get in because people are not moving much, why would they, they are treated well. I interviewed with one lately and I am waiting for an answer. I can garantee that if I am hired, I will put my résumés back in the drawer. Because the working conditions are incredibly good.
Unfortunately those companies are pretty rare.
However I would be optimistic since there is movement again in the industry. With movement companies asking for bonds will have to adjust their requirements since they will have less and lesss experienced people. At one point I bet they will lose part of the profit in insurance who will increase the rate because of unexperienced personnel.
Maybe I am day dreaming, but just my 2 cents

Atthelake · Post by **Atthelake** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:15 am

I am new to posting messages on the board, but after reading this topic I just had to post. Although Doc is a little harsh, he's right. There is no other trade, job, career out there where the employee is expected to pay 10s of thousands of dollars for training - then - pay an employer for the "priveledge" of having a job. Lets allow only the "rich livin' out of daddy's wallet kids" get all the jobs. And if an employer really wants to keep experienced people working there - then pay them a decent wage and give them a schedule that they can live with.

bamboo · Post by **bamboo** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:07 am

Because a pilot is involved in a training bond doesn't mean that he/she PAID for their training. They get the money back. That is the theory of a training bond. If I bought a Chev will GMAC give me the money back over a few months. I wish.

The Airline pays for training. It just happens to be through the employee which makes the employee financially bound to the company for a set period so the Airline doesn't get stuck with a bad investment. The risk is therefore shared between the employee and the employer. That is it. And as 280 said the employee gets a great credit rating and a possible chance to make a few %. Maybe if a pilots word was worth anything anymore (after years of screwing employers) there wouldn't be a need for training bonds. And Atthelake, you do not need to live out of Daddy's wallet. Im sure that most people do it on their own. You do know that
you can go to the bank and get a loan don't you? With a job there is a pretty good chance that they will approve you.

And as for not paying the dues. If you go up north and pay a training bond or not, you're gonna pay your dues. And go ahead and read Fate is the hunter. This is the way aviation used to be, Not anymore. I guess Doc still flys accross the Atlantic using the ADF antenna out the back hatch to check the altitude of the aircraft.

Atthelake · Post by **Atthelake** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:05 am

I guess what puts the biggest thorn in my side is that all of these jobs that require a training bond are put out of my reach not because of my experience, personality, willingness to work, skill or ability, but purely on the ability or inability to aquire the credit to get the job. Whether you have the right experience or not, if you can't aquire the credit - you don't get the job.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:10 am

Actually I dont give a rat's ass anymore! If you guys want to open your wallets for jobs....have at 'er! Dosen't have any affect on me at all. So, you guys run down to your local bank and sign up for a job. We used to dump all over guy who "buy" a PPC. WTF do you people think you're doing walking into an interview with a chequebook? I know, I'm really old and semi-brain-dead, but it sure looks like you're "buying" a job to me? But then, my word actually "means" something? When the company goes under, or fires your sorry ass, and screws out of "your?" money, dont come crying back here....

springjob · Post by **springjob** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:19 am

Doc,

I understand your point and you are right. What is happening is when someone is jobless and is starting to get scared of his future, he becomes tempted by those options. It is a bit a tunnel vision but the scarest you become the less "bright" you become.

I can relate to that because days ago, I was in this situation and I was considering everythings even bad options. Now I found a great job with a great company and there is no question of paying a bond...I feel a lot stronger. It really depends where you sit.

Now I agree that if every one refuses to pay bonds it would not happen...but it is not realistic.

Atthelake · Post by **Atthelake** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:10 am

Doc,

Didn't mean to ruffle the old feathers.

I have a good job with a good schedule and pay that I didn't have to pay for. They are out there, but I am just trying to make my point that I hate the thought of this industry turning into one where if you think that you can get ahead with experience, hard work, loyalty and all those other things that employers prize you will be denied the job without a credit check.

There was a time when your deeds spoke louder than your words and and loyalty was prized. But that has to be shown from both employer and employee if you want to keep it. So who's failing who? As the movement increases in the next while, there will be changes. They will be trying to fill the void, and things will change. But will it get worse or better? and for whom? Only time can tell.

Like I've seen you write before, we as individuals need to "keep to the high ground, it will pay dividends in the end."

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:44 pm

atthelake...no problems with my feathers, mate....I really just dont care anymore.

Coast-dog · Post by **Coast-dog** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:39 pm

Meanwhile, back to the original subject....

What Air Nunavut is trying to do (and it doesn't take a brainiac to see) is pull what I'm going to call a 'Leblanc'.

As far as I understand, a bond is when the company ante's up the money for your training and you sign an agreement that if you leave before the end of the predetermined period of time, you're on the hook for whatever agreed amount of cash.

If you're getting a loan to pay for your training, that's exactly what it is - a bank loan and not a bond to the company.