how long

[tsgas]

In a pilotless airplane the autopilot will likely be the last working system in an airplane with dual engine failures and total power loss.

It bloody well better be!!

The thing that pisses me off about automation is the expectations vs the realities of its true benefits. I do believe that there isn't really any job that couldn't be automated at some point: I like to believe we could automate top executives. However, they are the only ones who have the power to ensure they aren't ever replaced by computers. The thing is, by the time we have robot drivers and robot pilots and robot doctors and robot teachers and robot cleaners and robot geologists, we were supposed to be able to enjoy all the free time, wear togas, drink, work on art, in a beautiful garden maintained by all the robot workers. Instead what will probably happen is that fewer and fewer people will have fun jobs, people will keep reproducing until the world is full, we all have to take our food in pill form, and live in sea-cans.

That all sounds like Futurama with a cigar smoking , whiskey drinking, and crooked robot called Bender.

[Rockie]

[quote=Rockie post_id=<a href="tel:1124350">1124350</a> time=<a href="tel:1597115036">1597115036</a> user_id=5632]
MS flight sim doesn’t count garp.

If that’s all you’ve got, I’ll take my victory lap now. I expected better from a stable genius like you.
[/quote]

I can’t debate flightsim with you because I’ve never had it. You can’t debate real airplane stuff with me because you’ve never done it.

Doesn’t leave us much to debate, but you go ahead and take your victory lap around your parents basement. Watch out for the washing machine.

[digits_]

FBW is just another system subject to failures and incorrect responses like everything else. Did you know FBW systems degrade and have switches in the FD that can deselect them?
Why would they put flight control computer switches in the flight deck?

Yes, but even in the degraded system, it is still electronics controlling the flight controls.

The switches are there because their are still pilots on board. No pilots means the degraded mode could be automatically selected (if it doesn't already) and a switch would not be necessary.

No, you are not correct. The Airbus 320 for example today has a number of engineering bulletins alerting the crew to various guidance issues. One of them (since rescinded) was where due to erroneous inputs the FBW triggered high alpha protection which forced the nose of the aircraft down. The fix was to turn off two of the air data computers which forced the FBW system into direct mode and of course disconnected the autopilot precluding its further use. FBW is just a system that not only can fail on its own, but is wholly dependent on all kinds of inputs from other systems that themselves can fail or provide erroneous data that affect the FBW.

FBW is anything but foolproof, so I would stop regarding it as a failsafe alternative to a human with a brain.

In direct law, it is still an electronic signal that gets send to the actuators, no? It is not meant aa a failsafe alternative, but it indicates that a smart critical system can be built that keeps working even at a reduced capacity if something goes wrong.

Something that I never expected to trust by the way, and still not fully trust, but it is hard to argue with the safety record of such system.

[Rockie]

In direct law, it is still an electronic signal that gets send to the actuators, no? It is not meant aa a failsafe alternative, but it indicates that a smart critical system can be built that keeps working even at a reduced capacity if something goes wrong.

It means that while there are electrical signals being sent from the flight controls to the surfaces, the commands for those signals are being generated by the pilot, not a computer. The electronics are merely a conduit for the signal between the pilots brain > transferred by their hands and feet to the stick/control column or rudder > through wires to the hydraulic actuators. It is not the same as a computer flying...not anything like. If the pilot were not actively controlling the flight path of the aircraft it would just be a ballistic piece of aluminum and graphite.

[tsgarp]

I can’t debate flightsim with you because I’ve never had it. You can’t debate real airplane stuff with me because you’ve never done it.

Doesn’t leave us much to debate, but you go ahead and take your victory lap around your parents basement. Watch out for the washing machine.

And therein lay the problem. You think supervising an autopilot from one 12000' paved ILS served runway, through a RADAR environment to another 12000' paved ILS served runway is 'real airplane stuff'. I really hate to break this to you, but you know all those guys that failed out of PFT and went on to become Navigators? That's what a lot of them do now, at least the ones that became UAV operators. So, congratulations; the acme of your career is to perform the functions delegated to a Navigator.

My parents basement is not an option for my victory lap; they passed away coming up on 20 years ago and they left the house to my sister. Given the restraining order she has against me, I just don't see her accommodating that request. (for the intellectually impaired among you, the forgoing was typed with tongue in cheek). I'm not sure what I'll do the victory lap in. I might grab a Decathlon and go do some aeros, or just some grass strip work. One thing I can tell you it won't be; taking an airliner on autopilot from Winnipeg to Vancouver; that's work and its boring (don't get me wrong, it beats a real job any day of the week). Its the sort of work we developed computers to do for us.

Sadly, regardless of your acceptance of my flying experience or not, at the end of the day the fact remains that both you and I are replaceable in the cockpit by modern technology. Your acknowledgment, or lack thereof, of that fact has no bearing on the solidity and irrefutibility of that fact. I know you wont give up this argument, and that is fine. It's not your fault that your pig headed.

[Rockie]

And therein lay the problem. You think supervising an autopilot from one 12000' paved ILS served runway, through a RADAR environment to another 12000' paved ILS served runway is 'real airplane stuff'.

Proof you're full of shit. Stick to your flightsim junior....

['97 Tercel]

[Rockie]

Not even close, I got rid of that computer last year.

[pualani-mapleleaf]

While there is still some time, please tell me where I can fly an airliner whitout AP/FD/AT (raw data) and have some fun?

I regularly (before COVID) fly without the AP/FD/AT, in the Airbus. At my company it’s actually encouraged when suitable conditions permit.

[tsgarp]

While there is still some time, please tell me where I can fly an airliner whitout AP/FD/AT (raw data) and have some fun?

I regularly (before COVID) fly without the AP/FD/AT, in the Airbus. At my company it’s actually encouraged when suitable conditions permit.

That is a great idea. Hand flying is becoming a bit of a lost art. It’s kind of scary how many new FOs go a little bit dear in the headlights when the AP comes off.

Reminds me of a story from back when I was flying the mighty Dash. We were at 15000’ and I had it all trimmed out, AP off. I was just sitting there with my hands in my lap monitoring. It was so smooth that the aircraft needed no control inputs to hold course and altitude. I had been flying along like that for five minutes or so when I notice my FO lean forward, look at the EADI, look at me, look back at the EADI, look back at me;

FO: The AP is off....
Me: Yep....
FO: but you haven’t had your hands on the controls in .....like... a while...
Me: Nope, I haven’t .
FO: How’s the airplane staying level?
Me: Trim.
FO: ***stares at me and the instruments in awe and disbelief for a few minutes***

[pualani-mapleleaf]

Lol. Funny, but a bit sad.

[Rockie]

That is amazing. Was the seat belt sign off?

[leftoftrack]

Do you need the seatbelt sign off?

['97 Tercel]

While there is still some time, please tell me where I can fly an airliner whitout AP/FD/AT (raw data) and have some fun?

I regularly (before COVID) fly without the AP/FD/AT, in the Airbus. At my company it’s actually encouraged when suitable conditions permit.

That is a great idea. Hand flying is becoming a bit of a lost art. It’s kind of scary how many new FOs go a little bit dear in the headlights when the AP comes off.

Reminds me of a story from back when I was flying the mighty Dash. We were at 15000’ and I had it all trimmed out, AP off. I was just sitting there with my hands in my lap monitoring. It was so smooth that the aircraft needed no control inputs to hold course and altitude. I had been flying along like that for five minutes or so when I notice my FO lean forward, look at the EADI, look at me, look back at the EADI, look back at me;

FO: The AP is off....
Me: Yep....
FO: but you haven’t had your hands on the controls in .....like... a while...
Me: Nope, I haven’t .
FO: How’s the airplane staying level?
Me: Trim.
FO: ***stares at me and the instruments in awe and disbelief for a few minutes***

[Rockie]

Do you need the seatbelt sign off?

No, but it adds to the awesomeness of the story. It is truly remarkable that even with people and crew moving about in the cabin not even small corrections were needed to return to altitude or course for five whole minutes. What’s unfortunate is that tsgarp chose not to say how much longer it continued like that after his FO expressed his awe and disbelief. Why, it could have lasted like that for the entire cruise but perhaps he was just too humble to say. Sparing our feelings of inadequacy I suppose.

I couldn’t achieve that even with nobody moving around the cabin. The closest I came to that was in a citabria on floats one unearthly calm early morning. It was just me in it, but I could keep it on altitude just by leaning back and forth. But the thing is I had to periodically (say once every 30 seconds) lean back or forth to keep it on altitude, I didn’t have the skill to set the trim so the airplane didn’t budge from the altitude for five whole minutes. Still don’t 40 years later. As I said...amazing.

I have to wonder though, how is it one of the two pilots didn’t know the autopilot was off? AP and mode awareness is sort of important according to every book I’ve read, and in every company I’ve worked for their status is stated by one pilot and acknowledged by the other. It’s the one blemish in an unbelievable story.

[tsgarp]

Do you need the seatbelt sign off?

No, but it adds to the awesomeness of the story.

The cargo was fully strapped down. It’s amazing what a fine touch on the trim can do. It was also a good example of both static and dynamic stability. The aircraft did not stay exactly on altitude. It would wonder up about 30’, loose a knot or so and then wonder back down to about 30’ below altitude, gain a know or so, then head back up. The whole cycle took a minute or so; a perfect, long period, symmetrical oscillation.

What the aircraft did not do was wonder in its heading. It’s amazing what trimming your rudders and your aileron can do. It really pays off when you are hand flying an ILS.

Another fun story from my days at that outfit. There was another aircraft commander there who had a similar mindset to my own. We were paired up one night, he was the PIC. As we’re prepping for the flight, he gets a smirk and says “Wanna do this flight hand flown NDB only?”. I reply, “Sure thing brother”. Game on motherfucker. So we proceed to do the flight, hand flown, NDBs only for navigation. We did wus out and use a Jetplan for flight planning. We both fly our legs, both keeping times and fuel burns as close to the Jetplan as I’ve seen the autopilot do it. We ended up having a great deal of fun on the flight. We were talking about it a day or so later, when the FO from the previous story overhears us. He says, “Hand flown NDB only at night? Is that legal?”

[Rockie]

Wow, totally amazing.

Keep them coming, you must have one where you did the entire flight inverted. All a simple matter of trimming it just so...

[tsgarp]

Wow, totally amazing.

Keep them coming, you must have one where you did the entire flight inverted. All a simple matter of trimming it just so...

Nope. I don’t have much experience with sustained inverted flight. You’d have to ask Hedley about that. I’m sure he could offer you some tips if you’d like.

[Rockie]

Wow, totally amazing.

Keep them coming, you must have one where you did the entire flight inverted. All a simple matter of trimming it just so...

You’d have to ask Hedley about that. I’m sure he could offer you some tips if you’d like.

Haha, no thanks.

Seriously, how do you consistently leave FO's in gaping awe and disbelief like that? You sure it's not your six year old brother sitting beside you at the computer?

[digits_]

Wow, totally amazing.

Keep them coming, you must have one where you did the entire flight inverted. All a simple matter of trimming it just so...

You’d have to ask Hedley about that. I’m sure he could offer you some tips if you’d like.

Haha, no thanks.

Seriously, how do you consistently leave FO's in gaping awe and disbelief like that? You sure it's not your six year old brother sitting beside you at the computer?

Wouldn't you be gaping awe and disbelief either if your captain just discovered the trim on the plane