Morningstar

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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Morningstar

Post by Yycjetdriver »

fishface wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:37 pm
Yycjetdriver wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:20 pm
Maybe it’s more of Morningstar realizing their own shortcomings and deflecting. They might realize their own WAWCON’s fall short
YOU WISH :smt040
No I don’t wish, I couldn’t care less. I’m one of the lucky ones still employed, just my observation. If your a company operating a fleet of aircraft including 757’s and you’re worried about guys jumping ship... something is wrong. Make take a look in the mirror first and become the destination company you should be.
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flyinhigh
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Re: Morningstar

Post by flyinhigh »

Redmud wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:08 am What surprises me the most is two fold: firstly, young pilots entering the industry believe that when you hit 16000 hours with 10K hours heavy turboprop command plus thousands of hours on multiengine sea aircraft that you are automatically employable when the industry tanks and a few job adds start appearing... secondly, that history is not repeating itself... back in the early ‘90’s during the Gulf War I found laid-off airline pilots with 16K hours back flying C-310, C-208 etc etc... and the operators at the time were more than happy to have them because of “insurance requirements”... almost all the entry level jobs were filled by middle aged laid-off airline pilots... and, now after applying for a few float jobs on Beavers I discover a couple of operators have hired float pilots with only a couple of seasons under their belt... I went and chatted with one guy on the Beaver and he had under 400 hours float time, was happy to have the job etc.... well, I have thousands of hours on Beavers... a buddy at Morning spoke up for me for the ATR Captain job... I got 4800 hours in the left seat of that type out of the turboprop stable of my experience (10K+ hours PIC large turboprop) and the reply was - over qualified... so, 16K+ hours in the industry with diversified experience - airline/bush/aerial firefighting/training/grad degree/multilingual and not a bite...
So, looks like this over qualified pilot will pack the pick-up with gardening tools and head out to Victoria to attend to elderly people’s gardens until something with wings comes along...
To all the younger pilots out there - don’t believe for a minute that when you reach our level of experience that you are automatically employable - the whole industry is a farse... first you need multi time... so you go get it... then you need PIC time... so go collect some PIC.... then you need turbine time... then you need >12500 time... then you need trigger time (aerial firefighting)... then you need time on the Shuttle... you get the picture...and during economic down turns later in your career you realize too late how utterly useless all that experience is... so, as previously mentioned by others - go get a high tech education in IT/coding/systems admin etc. and run a parallel career along with your aviation adventure... when the flying adventure stops you can just continue on with your other career track...
So, am I missing something? What happened to the “insurance requirements” or, was that just another part of the hiring farse equation?
Red
Firstly, I am also a laid off airline pilot and feel your pain.

On the companies side of things, there is many many flags that go up when it comes to hiring us like the following;
1) When the industry turns, this guy is leaving on the first call (Might be one month, Might be two years),
2) Generally under the airlines you have made it, however coming back to 703/704 your going to bust your ass working with crappy conditions, where you just came eating descent meals and having nice hotel rooms. Than comes the complaining. (I've interviewed a couple airline pilots at the 704 level, and they all asked what we provided than began to compare it to what they used to have).
3) The work days, you will work 14 hour days. Most airline pilots have contracts that make the working day easier and supportive. 704 you work hard for 14 hours, with no support (Fatigue rules are coming in, and most complaints i've heard about them are from airline pilots not the bush pilot).
4) Insurance doesn't mean anything anymore. They are blanket policies that cover all pilots, not individual policies. Having one 16K hr pilot will not lower the price for the rest of the group.

Also on the bolded section. Yes the kid had 400 hours, but what would you expect the operator do, fire the kid that has been with him for who knows how long and hire you instead. Thats not going to happen as that kid will be back for the next couple seasons.

Its a crap deal, I get it as I cannot get anything either but I understand the other side of the table.
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Redmud
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Re: Morningstar

Post by Redmud »

Interesting feedback guys - thanxs! The kid I chatted with had just been hired for this season on the Beaver - I had also applied... I have returned on/off over the years when I had holidays and leave to fly again in the bush, I can still lift a full 45 gal drum into the back of the Twin Otter! I’m the fittest I have ever been right now, and I made it pretty clear I’m not interested in returning to the airlines... so, why are operators so keen to get young talent onboard and discard more experienced drivers... if it’s not the insurance game, what is it? Afraid the more experienced pilots might speak up?
When I get to Victoria I’ll be a one man show tackling garden work for a few family friends and hopefully expanding my clientele... all long 14 hour days, living in my van towing my tool trailer with me or, just using my truck... not all that different from working in a bush operation. A lot of employers forget mature and experienced pilots can work alone unsupervised for days, weeks, months and provide a well managed operation that consistently produces results...
We definitely are all in this mess together - make the best of it, enjoy the gift of life each day and be grateful for what you have... I’m trying to stay positive! I just wanted to highlight to the younger pilots that when you do get to the peak of your career don’t believe your experience, type ratings, hours etc are worth the paper they’re written on.
Red
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shimmydampner
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Re: Morningstar

Post by shimmydampner »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:20 am
fishface wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:37 pm
Yycjetdriver wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:20 pm
Maybe it’s more of Morningstar realizing their own shortcomings and deflecting. They might realize their own WAWCON’s fall short
YOU WISH :smt040
No I don’t wish, I couldn’t care less. I’m one of the lucky ones still employed, just my observation. If your a company operating a fleet of aircraft including 757’s and you’re worried about guys jumping ship... something is wrong. Make take a look in the mirror first and become the destination company you should be.
It's not an observation, it's an assumption and a pretty baseless one at that.
My understanding is that the WAWCON there is actually quite good, and for a lot of people, far superior to the airlines.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Morningstar

Post by Yycjetdriver »

shimmydampner wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:12 pm
Yycjetdriver wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:20 am
fishface wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:37 pm

YOU WISH :smt040
No I don’t wish, I couldn’t care less. I’m one of the lucky ones still employed, just my observation. If your a company operating a fleet of aircraft including 757’s and you’re worried about guys jumping ship... something is wrong. Make take a look in the mirror first and become the destination company you should be.
It's not an observation, it's an assumption and a pretty baseless one at that.
My understanding is that the WAWCON there is actually quite good, and for a lot of people, far superior to the airlines.
It’s a fair assumption/observation given then details I’ve seen, now if you have any that prove me wrong please do share. I’m sure there are lots of candidates that may care to know, if you actually know any...
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Morningstar

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

With over 3000 resumes it appears the WAWCON is good enough.
I have seen some laid off airline pilots taking corporate jobs that were regularly turned down pre covid because the pay was too low. People need to eat.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Morningstar

Post by Yycjetdriver »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:31 am With over 3000 resumes it appears the WAWCON is good enough.
I have seen some laid off airline pilots taking corporate jobs that were regularly turned down pre covid because the pay was too low. People need to eat.
Not at all what we were talking about but thanks.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Morningstar

Post by shimmydampner »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:57 pm It’s a fair assumption/observation given then details I’ve seen
You started out by mentioning that they could have hired laid off WestJet pilots but did not. You speculated (with no basis in fact) that their motivation for doing so was because of their imagined "shortcomings" as a company that you guess would drive away a former airline pilot, accustomed to a certain working arrangement. The conjecture continues with the hypothesis that they are concerned about pilots jumping ship because "something is wrong" with the company and they are not "the destination company" that they "should be." Your whole argument is nothing more than a theory rooted in pure speculation for the purpose of explaining away the uncomfortable fact that they are not interested in hiring laid off airline pilots. You're starting with the assumption that for some reason airline pilots are more valuable and should be more sought after than non airline pilots, then inventing a narrative that explains away the cognitive dissonance that results when you find out it's not the case. Rather than having an honest examination of the reasons why a company may legitimately not want to hire a laid off airline pilot, you're just assuming that the company sucks and calling that an observable fact. It's a theory of convenience built on conjecture based on speculation. It's just a really, really bad argument.
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Last edited by shimmydampner on Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Morningstar

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:21 am
JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:31 am With over 3000 resumes it appears the WAWCON is good enough.
I have seen some laid off airline pilots taking corporate jobs that were regularly turned down pre covid because the pay was too low. People need to eat.
Not at all what we were talking about but thanks.
You are quite welcome!
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iflyforpie
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Re: Morningstar

Post by iflyforpie »

My how the tables have turned.

Morningstar isn’t a destination company not because of WAWCONS... but because of the simple fact that not everyone can or wants (wanted) to flow through to the YYZ based, non-commutable, likely years for an upgrade 757 spot when you could go 705 regional and get closer or commutable base with an upgrade inside of 2 years with decades of progression and perks.

You could probably have doubled the wages and there wouldn’t be any retention. Heck, lots of 703/704 operators did that in the last few years just to attract talent that went straight out the door as soon as Jazz or Encore or WJ called.

I don’t think they will have any problem attracting or retaining pilots in this market for the foreseeable future.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Bacunayagua
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Re: Morningstar

Post by Bacunayagua »

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Last edited by Bacunayagua on Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Chaxterium
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Re: Morningstar

Post by Chaxterium »

iflyforpie wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:18 am but because of the simple fact that not everyone can or wants (wanted) to flow through to the YYZ based, non-commutable, likely years for an upgrade 757 spot
It's absolutely commutable. And right now we have guys upgrading into the left seat with two years at the company. When I was hired I was told two years. That was one year ago. COVID has certainly changed things so I'm assuming it will be longer, but I'm not expecting it to be significantly longer than that.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Morningstar

Post by iflyforpie »

Ok. But what does the commuting look like? Probably not possible on company aircraft unless you want to eat further into your GDO so you have to go inter line or jump seat which gets old quick.

YYZ is a junior base for most of the majors because nobody wants to be there. Unless you’re from the GTA, most bid other bases as soon as they have enough seniority to do so. That’s what killed any idea of working for WJ for me.. even with guaranteed standby travel I’d be stuck in YYZ for a long time. With Morningstar, I’d be stuck there forever.

Maybe that’s why there’s movement on the 757 as well? No chances of getting out of dodge unless you jump ship?

And I still doubt there’s enough movement to absorb every 208 pilot who moves through the organization unless they want to wait years.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
genetic jack hammer
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Re: Morningstar

Post by genetic jack hammer »

I could be wrong, but I don't recall seeing Morningstar on AC's jumpseat agreement. If you get YYZ and commute from YUL, could one travel on company aircraft?
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fish4life
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Re: Morningstar

Post by fish4life »

I heard that fed ex won’t authorize them to put non company people on the plane making it impossible to sign jump seat agreements
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Chaxterium
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Re: Morningstar

Post by Chaxterium »

Correct. We have no jumpseat agreements with anyone. All commuting is done on company aircraft.
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viccoastdog
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Re: Morningstar

Post by viccoastdog »

AirportCoffee wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:35 pm I can certainly see how on one hand they don't want to invest their time in someone who will leave as soon as they are recalled back to AC or WS, but do they not realize that the same thing will happen to 704/705 lite captains who will go back to wherever they were making good $$$ prior?

While a job in this climate sure is nice, 55K in YVR only goes so far...
It actually works out closer to $70K to start.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Morningstar

Post by iflyforpie »

Chaxterium wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:50 am Correct. We have no jumpseat agreements with anyone. All commuting is done on company aircraft.
So I’m assuming that you’ll by flying out on the go home leg you’ll be flying 24 hours later.. and probably holding for most of the day before you can get the outbound leg back home? Is it a milk run? Can you hitch a ride on 208s or ATRs to live in a small city rather than YVR, YYC, etc?
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igorcanuck
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Re: Morningstar

Post by igorcanuck »

Does anyone know how many pilots on the last ATR GS?
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BE20 Driver
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Re: Morningstar

Post by BE20 Driver »

I am told that they are adding 2 machines to start with. At 11 pilots per machine that's 22 pilots. I have heard this is only the start for Calgary and there is expected expansion beyond the initial 2 ATR's.
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