Can I log Pilot in Command time?

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Allan8552
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Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by Allan8552 »

I'm currently type rated on a Citation 2 and I do not have my atpl yet. The aircraft is listed on our AOC as rated to fly two crew as far as I know. Our company has the PF flying from the left seat. I log my time in the right seat as co-pilot time but my question is can I log my time in the left seat as Pilot in Command ? Or no.
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jschnurr
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by jschnurr »

PF does not equal PIC.
Seat position does not equal PIC.

Your Ops manual should have this clarified.
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porcsord
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by porcsord »

jschnurr wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:31 pm PF does not equal PIC.
Seat position does not equal PIC.
Oh how I wish people realized this.
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ahramin
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by ahramin »

Yes, you can legally log it as PIC ... IF you are PIC. If someone else is PIC and you're sitting in the left seat flying the plane and making all the decision until something goes wrong, that person is the PIC, not you, and you can't log it as PIC.
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Allan8552
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by Allan8552 »

Understood
jschnurr wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:31 pm PF does not equal PIC.
Seat position does not equal PIC.

Your Ops manual should have this clarified.
ahramin wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:27 pm Yes, you can legally log it as PIC ... IF you are PIC. If someone else is PIC and you're sitting in the left seat flying the plane and making all the decision until something goes wrong, that person is the PIC, not you, and you can't log it as PIC.
.

Understood!
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Chaxterium
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by Chaxterium »

It can be boiled down to this: If at the end of the day, your signature is NOT going in the logbook, then you are not the PIC. End of story. The only exception to this is PICUS. Which, if you're hurting for PIC time for your ATPL, could help you. But you'll have to look into whether your company has the PICUS program.
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Allan8552
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by Allan8552 »

Chaxterium wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:33 am It can be boiled down to this: If at the end of the day, your signature is NOT going in the logbook, then you are not the PIC. End of story. The only exception to this is PICUS. Which, if you're hurting for PIC time for your ATPL, could help you. But you'll have to look into whether your company has the PICUS program.
They do thankfully. Just need another 7 hours to qualify as I believe I need 150 hours PIC to qualify.
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by Chaxterium »

Yep. That's correct. In order to utilize the PICUS program the candidate must have 150 hours of PIC. You may have to bite the bullet and buy the hours. At least it's only 7. I know guys who've had to buy a lot more than that.

Best of luck.
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praveen4143
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by praveen4143 »

Chaxterium wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:33 am It can be boiled down to this: If at the end of the day, your signature is NOT going in the logbook, then you are not the PIC. End of story.
Do you mean personal logbook or Journey log? This isn't a thing in Canada as far as I can think.

Personal (pilot) logbooks are only required to be signed by the pilot who it belongs to. The Journey log is usually signed by anyone authorized to do so by the owner or operator of the aircraft. (Although I couldn't readily find the CAR reference for this, so maybe someone please correct me if I am wrong.)
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Chaxterium
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by Chaxterium »

praveen4143 wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:10 pm
Chaxterium wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:33 am It can be boiled down to this: If at the end of the day, your signature is NOT going in the logbook, then you are not the PIC. End of story.
Do you mean personal logbook or Journey log? This isn't a thing in Canada as far as I can think.

Personal (pilot) logbooks are only required to be signed by the pilot who it belongs to. The Journey log is usually signed by anyone authorized to do so by the owner or operator of the aircraft. (Although I couldn't readily find the CAR reference for this, so maybe someone please correct me if I am wrong.)
Journey log. For every airline I've ever flown for the captain always signs the journey log. I'm honestly not sure if there is a CARs requirement for this or not as I've never had to look it up but for each company I worked for it was a company requirement that the PIC must sign the journey log.
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photofly
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by photofly »

The required contents of the journey log are listed in schedule 1 to 605.94. Unless at an FTU, the PIC is responsible for the entry for each flight or series of flights. It doesn't say it has to be written by the PIC, it could be delegated. And there is no requirement for the entries to be signed at all.


Aside: why does everyone get a stiffie about signing things? Do people think it's ok to write untruths in logbooks as long as they don't have to sign it? "Oh, well, if I actually have to *sign*, then I guess I better write the truth." What's with that?
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Schooner69A
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by Schooner69A »

Allan8552: I flew 15 years corporate in a company where we were all aircraft captains and swapped seats every leg. On those legs where I was in the right seat, I logged 'co-pilot'...

John
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praveen4143
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by praveen4143 »

photofly wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:08 pm The required contents of the journey log are listed in schedule 1 to 605.94. Unless at an FTU, the PIC is responsible for the entry for each flight or series of flights. It doesn't say it has to be written by the PIC, it could be delegated. And there is no requirement for the entries to be signed at all.
Thanks for pointing me towards the schedule. Didn't realize that there was one, albeit a little further down.

For anyone else looking for reference:
JLog.png
JLog.png (38.37 KiB) Viewed 7961 times
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MrAviator19
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by MrAviator19 »

What does your OFP say with regards to who is PIC and SIC for each flight?

A brand new student training in a C172 can also be PF in the left seat... just saying.

MrA
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Gino Under
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by Gino Under »

The regulation has never been clear. Airlines clearly have pilot-in-command and second-in-command designees so, what to log isn't a mystery. The Journey log distraction is simply a disconnect from the pilot log. The logging of command is based purely the sole manipulator of the controls (with or without autopilot) unless otherwise spelled out in your ops manual. If you have one. Why not log what you can justify as legitimate command or second-in-command time?
Gino Under
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by digits_ »

Gino Under wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:05 pm The logging of command is based purely the sole manipulator of the controls (with or without autopilot) unless otherwise spelled out in your ops manual. If you have one.
Say what now?
Who is manipulating the controls is completely irrelevant to decide who is the PIC.
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Chaxterium
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by Chaxterium »

Gino Under wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:05 pm The regulation has never been clear. Airlines clearly have pilot-in-command and second-in-command designees so, what to log isn't a mystery. The Journey log distraction is simply a disconnect from the pilot log. The logging of command is based purely the sole manipulator of the controls (with or without autopilot) unless otherwise spelled out in your ops manual.
I think you're getting confused with the FARs. I've been licensed in Canada since 2002 and I've never heard the term 'sole manipulator of the controls' in regards to who is PIC. That's in the FARs; not the CARs.
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Gino Under
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by Gino Under »

You’re absolutely correct. It is a FAR and it’s what is used by numerous nations throughout the world. The comparison between a Canadian pilot logbook and say a Chinese, Korean, or Japanese pilot logbook is embarrassing.

From the FARs,
1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

I doubt Transport Canada would object to any Canadian pilot using this FAR as guidance. Nor do I doubt it deviates much or differs significantly from the applicable CAR to be a big deal. Unless someone has the applicable CAR that says otherwise?

Admittedly, I’m not that familiar with our CARs (due to my overseas career). But, this question keeps cropping up. This particular FAR makes it real easy for the average dummy (like me) to understand and log time.
Mind you, since attaining my ATPL, what I log and how I log it is my personal choice. I log everything the way that’s easiest defended by me if I’m ever challenged.

Gino Under
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

When Transport Canada wants to know who was PIC for any particular commercial flight they will ask to see the Journey Logbook and the Operational Flight Plan for that flight. If you can sign the JL and OFP you are PIC.

What the FAR's or any other regulator says regarding PIC time is immaterial for Canadian pilots.
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Re: Can I log Pilot in Command time?

Post by Chaxterium »

Gino Under wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:32 pm I doubt Transport Canada would object to any Canadian pilot using this FAR as guidance. Nor do I doubt it deviates much or differs significantly from the applicable CAR to be a big deal. Unless someone has the applicable CAR that says otherwise?
You'd be surprised. Determining who the PIC is is one area where the CARs and FARs differ significantly. Under the FARs there's actually a scenario where five people could simultaneously log PIC whereas in Canada there is only ever one PIC and it must be determined prior to the flight. If you're at an airline this determination is typically made by the company when they assign a captain and a first officer. I don't have the regs for you right now as I'm a couple gin and tonics into my night and I can't be bothered right now so I apologize. I've looked them up in the past and they're rather black and white. Only one PIC per flight. There can be no switching. No dual logging of PIC. If two people log PIC for the same flight then one of them is contravening the regulations.

Since I got to the airlines I've just always gone with what the logbook says. If I signed the logpage for that day, I'm the PIC. If I didn't, then I wasn't the PIC. This even goes for line checks. This way it's pretty damn easy to defend if I ever get asked. The one who signed the logpage is the one who the Chief is going to call when the CADORS for your altitude bust on the STAR coming into YYZ rolls into his or her office so therefore I think it's fair to say that that person is the PIC.

Enjoy your night.
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