How to get rid of ACPA?

[Johnny767]

ACPA has been a smoldering dumpster fire for the last decade. The current MEC has disbanded the ALPA merger group and walked away from the process, don’t believe me, make a phone call or two. Nothing will change until the fall elections.

However I always wondered what would happen if a 500 plus member movement decided to differ their union dues to charity.

There is way more to that story and I do not to profess to know the gory details. For sure ACPA mico analysed it to the end of the earth, likely for their own political reasons. However, ALPA (Canada) was also being difficult limiting where the AC Pilots would fit in. The early agreement with ALPA was for AC Pilots to join the large Airline group.

ALPA (C) put an end to that and so ended any further talks with ALPA.

Pilots screwing Pilots - until that changes there is little hope.

[astronaut]

I do remember a few weeks ago in the YYZ crew room a pilot showing my F/O a website regarding change designed by a junior group of frustrated pilots.

I only got “ heresay” so cant comment any further.

Anyone else heard of this?

TS

That website is designed by a low time loud mouth that is counting his AC Seniority in weeks and months. Had over 1000 posts on the forum in no time, doing nothing but complaining. 250 hr Jazz guy and in 24 months is at AC - everyone from management to ACPA knows who he is. Ink is still drying on his ATP, beaking off about being a Q400 Captain and on the Jazz Negotiations committee.

Poster child for "Entitled Millennial!"

There is a large group of individuals behind this not just one person, with some names associated that you will be surprised to find out.

As for your condescending comment about another AC pilot, if you're talking about the person I think you are (but I'm not sure since this person was not a "250 hour Jazz guy with a wet ATPL") they seem to be one of the few who actually ask good questions and don't run away when attacked by people like you. Something you must hate, seeing a younger person with a mind of their own. Mind you I haven't seen them on the other forum in a while now, so who knows maybe they gave up dealing with the crusty old guard.

Must be tough to see things changing rapidly before your eyes, and realizing you're no longer going to be in control as the newer generations take over.

I fully support this movement and they'll all have my vote when elections come.

[Johnny767]

The Bloodless Coup being planned in the underground, should be entertaining. Not quite the way to go about making positive change, at least in my opinion. Not to mention the majority of the players are likely laid off or about to be laid off - for who knows how long. There are plenty of things that are in desperate need of improvement and there have been some very smart people try. There are always Pilots on the sidelines (cheap seats) that have great ideas, get involved with the Association and find out it isn't quite as easy as it looks.

So if you want to effect change, get involved and do your best, creating more silos around here is not the way.

[RRJetPilot]

They will have my support as well. Look at ALPA and their recent communication regarding stopping all flights to Ottawa. ACPA is so disappointing.

[astronaut]

The Bloodless Coup being planned in the underground, should be entertaining. Not quite the way to go about making positive change, at least in my opinion. Not to mention the majority of the players are likely laid off or about to be laid off - for who knows how long. There are plenty of things that are in desperate need of improvement and there have been some very smart people try. There are always Pilots on the sidelines (cheap seats) that have great ideas, get involved with the Association and find out it isn't quite as easy as it looks.

So if you want to effect change, get involved and do your best, creating more silos around here is not the way.

"Pilots on the sidelines or cheap seats" also known as the voting membership.

[PT6onH20]

Can someone please share more details about this website/forum? PM please with details if you don't feel comfortable sharing on this thread.

Thanks!

I can’t get the link to post properly on my phone. Google Ac pilots forum.

Not worth sifting through that echo chamber for the odd piece of good intel. Half the threads eventually end up bitching about the government.

I’m also ready to wave goodbye to ACPA. Take a walk through HQ and see where your dues go.

[gasbag1]

I think you might find the highest paid Union leaders and Local Representatives in Canada are the MEC and LEC ChaIrs Full time flight release for those in ACPA plus add ons. Unless something has changed ALPA only has the MEC Chairman on a full time release. So getting ACPA "leadership" to move towards ALPA would a large financial hit to those same representatives. Not much of an incentive.

I wouldn't hold my breath...

[astronaut]

ACPA is a dumpster fire.

[Johnny767]

Have the guts to come out of the shadows and do something about it, there is plenty of support for ALPA. Representation vote isn't quite as easy as some think.

In the good old days (before forums,) if you had something to say you had to get off your lazy @ss and attend a meeting, have the courage to speak your conviction in front of your peers.

Now it is liquid courage after a third Scotch and a keyboard.

[Ratherbe]

Johnny, plenty of support for ACPA. A lot of guys I have flown with that came across from Jazz said they were not impressed with the ALPA representation they got there. Also, if they are so marvellous how did Transat and WJ get their lousy contacts? Not to mention the high dues coming off every pay cheque.
I don’t think it’s time for a drastic change, it’s time to rebuild and regroup focussing on protecting all of our pilots’ careers.

[Mrbobmarly111]

Agreed Ratherbe

[yycflyguy]

Johnny, plenty of support for ACPA. A lot of guys I have flown with that came across from Jazz said they were not impressed with the ALPA representation they got there. Also, if they are so marvellous how did Transat and WJ get their lousy contacts? Not to mention the high dues coming off every pay cheque.
I don’t think it’s time for a drastic change, it’s time to rebuild and regroup focussing on protecting all of our pilots’ careers.

The difference between ACPA and ALPA dues is around 0.5%

How much has ACPA cost me in career income with piss poor negotiating? I would gladly pay the higher dues to protect career earnings.

[Captnflex]

[/quote]
The difference between ACPA and ALPA dues is around 0.5%
[/quote]

This is the only thing that is garantee higher union dues.

ACPA or ALPA if you vote the same poeple in office, if the membership does not want to fight the battle or get invlove
the end results will not change.

[Fanblade]

This is the only thing that is garantee higher union dues.

ACPA or ALPA if you vote the same poeple in office, .....the end results will not change.

There is certainly validity in your point. Or better put why would we expect change with the same people?

The thing is that point is based on the assumption people are the problem. In the past we have assumed governance was the problem. To be fair it has been part of the problem. Not following advice from professional advisors points directly at governance.

But I don’t think either are the whole or root problem.

If you have ever been involved with ACPA you would soon realize you don’t have good support. We are too small. Too many people trying to be the jack of all trades rather than the professional. A labor lawyer is a bad idea when looking for advice on pension for example.

Think of it this way. You are on approach somewhere and the advice you get is wrong. Let’s say some unqualified individual says the runway looks great. You decide to land and on touchdown you have zero breaking on ice. Off the end you go.

It was bad info that started you down the path that got you into trouble. Not the person who made the decision based on what they thought was accurate.

It’s a problem. A serious, repetitive problem.

Not saying ALPA is nirvana. Just saying I don’t think it’s the people. There are problem people of course. But most people are just trying to do their best. It’s why, I think anyway, we seem to see great people head into ACPA and the same stuff keeps happening.

[Captnflex]

Looking for end results...

Compare the differents contract of pilots in Canada represented by differents unions/associations.

Do you see any one with a better total package (salary, working conditions, pensions, benefits ie health insurance ect).

Yes there is always room for improvement but simply changing the name on the door (as the membership will not change) will not do any miracle.

The big difference is ACPA decision is made by AC pilots without undue influence by other group.

ACPA fund$ are used by ACPA no need to send your part of your dues south of the border, if you need some outside expertise you spend your funds not somebody else.

You fight your own battle (or you don't) but it remain your own decision.

[disco]

Looking for end results...

Compare the differents contract of pilots in Canada represented by differents unions/associations.

Do you see any one with a better total package (salary, working conditions, pensions, benefits ie health insurance ect).

Yes there is always room for improvement but simply changing the name on the door (as the membership will not change) will not do any miracle.

The big difference is ACPA decision is made by AC pilots without undue influence by other group.

ACPA fund$ are used by ACPA no need to send your part of your dues south of the border, if you need some outside expertise you spend your funds not somebody else.

You fight your own battle (or you don't) but it remain your own decision.

I totally disagree. I don't think you have a clear understanding of:

1) what is fundamentally wrong with ACPA and its flawed structure; and
2) what happens with your dues within the ALPA world. You aren't sending your dues "south of the border". You are procuring resources beyond what many carriers could reasonably achieve.
3) comparing contracts in Canada is a murky and questionable measure of representation but - ACPA has been leading the race to the bottom in this pond.
4) Comparing the contracts in Canada is a broad false equivalence. For eg. It's like comparing an American Eagle contract to a United contract. Would that be a reasonable thing to do?

[altiplano]

Economies of scale... we pay entirely for our own inept LRD/legal, our own office staff, CEO, analysts, lobbyists, head office, communications, etc, etc...

"South of the border" = chipping in our share for that... most of the money stays at home for our direct activities and in contingencies for our membership, MECs can also authorize reduced funds to an extent.

As soon as this shutstorm is over, the sooner we are Group A ALPA the better.

['97 Tercel]

So what did your Ledsham do anyway?

[Daniel Cooper]

Honestly who cares. Now is not the time to be spending "significant time, effort, expense, and deliberation in an effort to resolve these issues". An elected member could be jumping up and down and peeing on the roofs of cars in the Viscount parking lot and we'll deal with it later.

[ZBBYLW]

Honestly who cares. Now is not the time to be spending "significant time, effort, expense, and deliberation in an effort to resolve these issues". An elected member could be jumping up and down and peeing on the roofs of cars in the Viscount parking lot and we'll deal with it later.

And we should deal with it later. Honestly now is not the time to deal with the Tony BS. He should resign. It appears as though his clutch has started slipping. It's a huge distraction.

We have two very important things coming up very soon. Negotiations (in the worst economic environment for our industry imaginable) and the end of MOA number 1. Personally I think now is not the time to negotiate but I spoke to an elected rep and essentially if the company asks us to sit at the table we can't say no. Secondly the first MOA has almost run its course. Some guys are pissed off about the pay cut, others pissed off with the layoffs and that we should all take more of a pay cut. I don't have the answers, and while I am an optimistic person I fear the corporation won't be nearly as accommodating as most US airlines WRT an MOA.

All this to say we have probably the hardest negotiating environment to deal with and ACPA is dealing with the side circus. About time to focus on what's important. We've received zero communication regarding these very important issues.

[rudder]

We have two very important things coming up very soon. Negotiations (in the worst economic environment for our industry imaginable) and the end of MOA number 1. Personally I think now is not the time to negotiate but I spoke to an elected rep and essentially if the company asks us to sit at the table we can't say no. Secondly the first MOA has almost run its course. Some guys are pissed off about the pay cut, others pissed off with the layoffs and that we should all take more of a pay cut. I don't have the answers, and while I am an optimistic person I fear the corporation won't be nearly as accommodating as most US airlines WRT an MOA.

All this to say we have probably the hardest negotiating environment to deal with and ACPA is dealing with the side circus. About time to focus on what's important. We've received zero communication regarding these very important issues.

I could see the hits coming fast and furious in the fall of 2020.

By the end of September, the TRZ transaction should be officially declared dead. That clears the way for an AC only plan looking out to 2021/2022.

As far as collective bargaining is concerned, the terms of reference that apply to each renewal opportunity don’t really open the door for the company to leverage current circumstances to exact concessions either consensually or via arbitration.

Where things could get messy is equipment bidding. The last bid was obviously just a place setter moving people into awarded positions with the least amount of training and disruption. And it picked off the easy targets for layoff. It is certainly within the realm of possibilities that there will be a suggestion or threat of more dramatic reductions of pilot staffing coinciding with permanent reductions in fleet, particularly in the WB fleet. It is that discussion that may be presented with a proffer of extending the de facto work sharing arrangement of DMM 55 in to Q1 2021 as an alternative.

The war room at AC is running 24/7. And there has not been much positive news about revenue apart from cargo which is a relative drop in the bucket. The Feds are not going to do much if anything to help the industry. Health policy and travel restrictions are choking off any near term opportunities to generate sales and reduce cash burn.

There is little or no reason to offer permanent concessions when the situation could evolve in to yet another court supervised restructuring. That is the lesson that was learned south of the border.

[iflyroads]

latest bid that ran was projected to meet staffing requirements till 2022

vp of flight ops recently quoted as saying the entire surplus list will be on furlough by november, and if required any further downbid requirements will be addressed with a bid in jan 2021. (second hand information)

But in stating the above, as far as i have been told network planning and commercial have yet to release a final plan for winter flying. Any upcoming bid in the fall will not show any increase in positions to reflect rouge flying.

I am sorry, but I wish i had better news.

[PostmasterGeneral]

So what did your Ledsham do anyway?

I think he was the one to leak that internal memo regarding ACPA being able to give themselves all raises while other membership is laid off.

The fact they’re wasting ANY resources on this nonsense at a time like this is unbelievable.

[thrust set]

Tony couldn’t accept that his opinions sometimes were not always accepted with the praise and accolades that he thought they warranted. The results were often half truths, conspiracy theories against union leaders posted on ... I always enjoyed his posts but over the years it just seemed to get a little more jaded. One has to remember it’s a democracy and if someone is always rowing in the opposite direction then they are often left out.

It’s time he just resigned and devote the extra time to his family and hobbies.

[tailgunner]

Postmaster...
The issue is well before the leaked Memo you are referring to.
All members of the MEC are duty bound to follow the rules constitution of ACPA, and when dealing with Legal bargaining, they are legally bound to follow the law regarding good faith, and illegal job actions, or counseling others.
There will be a third party investigation.
TL is a very popular figure, but let’s not immediately take sides. Let’s wait for the independent review.
Cheers