How to get rid of ACPA?

[RippleRock]

WRT negotiating. The "hard sell sales job" of the 10 year deal by our leadership at ACPA has left the membership frozen out of any possible advances beyond "zero sum" bargaining over the last 6 years. Is that forgotten now? Record profits were made, but the membership was still obligated to divert 1.5% of their income into an overfunded pension plan. Not one inch was given by the Corp. ---Not one inch--- during years of record profits. Now in times of "need" we open the contract and offer what? What do we have to give? What do we have left to give after 17 years of giving? Hundreds of millions in lost in bargaining capital that is forever gone because we "lost our way" somehow. ACPA's mandate should have always been to protect every dime of "bargaining capital" all along. Now we are "problem solvers". Poor self-sacrefical ones at best.

An extension to the MOA will leave some members homeless once the 6-month mortgage relief from the banks expires (Oct 1st). Is that where we go? Give the Corp a 7 day life-line extension on behalf of the pilot group when other employee groups gave "zero" willingly. Maybe we'll all get a nice pat on the back for selling the profession and our homes. Bargain sure----but zero sum----just like that which was forced on us.

FWIW the FA's are at 85 hours next month.

[iflyroads]

latest bid that ran was projected to meet staffing requirements till 2022

vp of flight ops recently quoted as saying the entire surplus list will be on furlough by november, and if required any further downbid requirements will be addressed with a bid in jan 2021. (second hand information)

But in stating the above, as far as i have been told network planning and commercial have yet to release a final plan for winter flying. Any upcoming bid in the fall will not show any increase in positions to reflect rouge flying.

I am sorry, but I wish i had better news.

entire entire surplus ?

Yes. Direct quote from vp of flight ops.

Doesn't look like there will be any extra positions added to the bid coming up.

[altiplano]

WRT negotiating. The "hard sell sales job" of the 10 year deal by our leadership at ACPA has left the membership frozen out of any possible advances beyond "zero sum" bargaining over the last 6 years. Is that forgotten now? Record profits were made, but the membership was still obligated to divert 1.5% of their income into an overfunded pension plan. Not one inch was given by the Corp. ---Not one inch--- during years of record profits. Now in times of "need" we open the contract and offer what? What do we have to give? What do we have left to give after 17 years of giving? Hundreds of millions in lost in bargaining capital that is forever gone because we "lost our way" somehow. ACPA's mandate should have always been to protect every dime of "bargaining capital" all along.

100%

Go around flaps 2023

We are obligated to bargain - as in show up and hear what they have to say - but we are not obligated to give an inch.

Everyone should write their MEC reps and the CEO and NC Chair and tell them to do their job and protect the contract. Don't start concessionary bargaining when we don't have to.

We all ought to know that gains - beyond the guaranteed 2% per year and gains in benefits/expenses/DC pension - will be impossible to achieve... we couldn't even do it in '17...

I would be open to short term flexibility only and in only in exchange for real forever gains or fixes. Beyond that.... I don't see anything possible here. Our guys need to keep their mouths shut and if a status quo contract continuation doesn't work, let the company do the cost neutral arbitration under the framework moa to a maximum of 5 things.

It will be impossible for them to force concessions. The language for the arbitrator to follow is clear.

An extension to the MOA will leave some members homeless once the 6-month mortgage relief from the banks expires (Oct 1st). Is that where we go? Give the Corp a 7 day life-line extension on behalf of the pilot group when other employee groups gave "zero" willingly. Maybe we'll all get a nice pat on the back for selling the profession and our homes. Bargain sure----but zero sum----just like that which was forced on us.

I think some of us think that since we are the first to "help" and make sacrifice that we will get some special treatment, they hold up that we are fewer layoffs as a % vs. FAs or CSAs or Clipboard Managers.

But the company will do whatever it is they will do every time. They don't say, "Those pilots were sure honourable in trying to save us a day worth of cash burn, let's not lay them off." Harakiri won't do shit except fu ck us up.

[Inverted2]

Any idea what the total layoffs # will be?

[airboy1]

Any idea what the total layoffs # will be?

I've heard total layoff, including the current layoff, will total 1500 pilots next few months.

Could be a quick recall for the uppermost most layoffs though.

[Daniel Cooper]

Wow a Transat pilot knows that?

[RRJetPilot]

That's interesting, I would like to know where you heard that. Since the CEO and DFO are saying the employee numbers are now rightsized. Also considering they can only logistically lay off 100 a month, another 700 would bring it into next summer. Ive heard some pretty far out rumors, and this sounds like one of them. You may actually be confused with the reduction in required pilots since the last normal bid. At that time AC required approximately 5000 pilots, and now after ERIP and layoffs AC will be down to about 3400 pilots. So a reduction of 1600 from what they were planning before the Wuhan Flu.

[Boreas]

Any idea what the total layoffs # will be?

I've heard total layoff, including the current layoff, will total 1500 pilots next few months.

Could be a quick recall for the uppermost most layoffs though.

I heard 10,000.

[YHZFog]

Any chance to get a list of all the active pilots that got themselves a raise while others were being laid off?

[Johnny767]

If anyone around here thinks we should go to 85 hours, like the F/A's , we would need a down bid of nuclear proportions likely cutting the Pilot list in half. The existing bid was structured for a fast recovery, which unfortunately isn't happening. So now what? Massive layoffs and down training or try and hold on for another six months. For those in financial distress at 55 hours, how about feeling for the unemployed!

Two ex-wives, highly mortgaged house, cottage, Nautique Wakeboard boat, new BMW - sorry Pal.

Only kicker is ACPA not giving away the farm, which they are famous for.

Takes 22 years to be a gainfully employed F/A, is that what you want for the Pilots? We all know the down training and subsequent up training is what is saving us.

As for comparing ACPA to ALPA, it is PeeWee House league verse the NHL of Pilot Associations. Worth every cent of increased dues, in my opinion.

[altiplano]

Two ex-wives, highly mortgaged house, cottage, Nautique Wakeboard boat, new BMW - sorry Pal.

Still my first wife, no cottage, no boat, no BMW... where did I go wrong?

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Two ex-wives, highly mortgaged house, cottage, Nautique Wakeboard boat, new BMW - sorry Pal.

Still my first wife, no cottage, no boat, no BMW... where did I go wrong?

Working at AC?

Lol I jest of course

[RippleRock]

If anyone around here thinks we should go to 85 hours, like the F/A's , we would need a down bid of nuclear proportions likely cutting the Pilot list in half. The existing bid was structured for a fast recovery, which unfortunately isn't happening. So now what? Massive layoffs and down training or try and hold on for another six months. For those in financial distress at 55 hours, how about feeling for the unemployed!

Two ex-wives, highly mortgaged house, cottage, Nautique Wakeboard boat, new BMW - sorry Pal.

Only kicker is ACPA not giving away the farm, which they are famous for.

Takes 22 years to be a gainfully employed F/A, is that what you want for the Pilots? We all know the down training and subsequent up training is what is saving us.

As for comparing ACPA to ALPA, it is PeeWee House league verse the NHL of Pilot Associations. Worth every cent of increased dues, in my opinion.

You're kidding right? 85 hours? That would be really nice though, but hours like that been reserved for "ACPA MEC club members" only.

BTW, "massive down-training" and a "massive downbid" was NEVER a possibility. It would have tied up too many resources and might have left pilots trapped in conversion courses when they may have been needed online. No one knows now, or knew back in May when the 14-day quarantine for inbound travellers might be lifted.

How about stick to the CONTRACT, maybe?? It's there to protect us, just like it was rightly designed to protect the Corp from us asking for a "small piece of pie" in times of plenty. Our plate was purposefully kept empty because it was in the contract. Every single time we divert off-contract with another half-cocked, short sighted "save everybody" MOA we get burned. It's never been the pilots job to do that.

The Corp will ---crew the airline--- as they see fit, not more, not less. We cannot "buy" jobs with a pay reduction. If anyone understood how little our --direct pay-- actually made to the Corps bottom line, compared to the mistake of --under-crewing-- multi-million dollar aircraft and limiting deployment flexibility in the event of an unexpected upswing, they would actually understand what I'm talking about. Our pay means nothing, certainly not the 15 hours/mo each that we're all donating.

Our MEC charged straight into the fire to "save us all" without having any clue how long the Covid thing would even last. 55 hours for a limited # of lay-offs. Right. How could the MM team have had any clue how Flight Ops planned to crew the airline over the short or long term given how little ANYONE knew about the pandemic and its spread or duration? Think about it.

Handing over 15 hours per month of Membership salary for the duration of this 6-month MOA was a nice "gesture" though ---- done without a vote, and done without the MEC "donating" and suffering like the rest of us.

For the record, I want to say that AC has an excellent Flight Ops/Management team------they are stellar, and great at what they do. It's part of their job to extract gains from the employee groups. Murray S. is fantastic. I just --detest-- ACPA and it's weak kneed leadership, and general lack of direction. There should be NO DOUBT that the MEC answer to, and represent the Membership exclusively, and FIRST. They are NOT qualified to run an airline, and neither are we. Their contract/unity/Constitution guardianship over the years, and their record of preventing loss of bargaining capital is astoundingly poor at best.

['97 Tercel]

But is the issue the ACPA system or merely the people that have been elected/appointed within it?

Which one is the problem...what are the odds it's both?

[TheStig]

Doesn't look like there will be any extra positions added to the bid coming up.

The airline has stated they plan on restarting some rouge airbus operations this fall. The last bid didn't have any rouge airbus positions but there are still a large number of pilot qualified as the retraining over the summer has focused on; 1) pilots in YYZ and YUL who bid from LCC 319 to ML on the 320. 2) pilots who were flying the EMJ and 767. Those airplanes are gone, might as well retrain the pilots to fly whatever they been awarded.

Essentially Flight Ops is keeping options available to the commercial side. The last bid reflected a plan and a recovery strategy, the next bid, whenever it is released, will reflect shorter term updates to their forecast. Rouge can restart without a bid, but if the market for it's flying doesn't return, it wont.

With a focus on retraining pilots who's fleets have been retired the airline isn't stuck with the 795 surplus plan from the previous bid. They could release a bid next week that shows 1000 surplus, if they forecast that's what the demand will be for next summer. However, the airline would struggle to down-train enough pilots over the next 6 months to realize any offsetting savings from furloughs while removing the airlines flexibility to recover, should a vaccine become widely available.

The fact that air travel isn't returning this fall is irrelevant, it's too late. This is the reason why the pilot group shouldn't make any concessions to 'save' jobs, there aren't any to save at this point. The airline has shown its hand, the pilots don't need to fold.

I don't believe the airline will drastically change its overall crew requirements on the next bid, rather shuffle a few positions between types, as it need to maintain flexibility and the ability to recover should the market recover (to the airlines own forecast of 70-80% pre-covid) next summer. That was the focus of the last bid and will remain the objective.

[rudder]

I don't believe the airline will drastically change its overall crew requirements on the next bid, rather shuffle a few positions between types, as it need to maintain flexibility and the ability to recover should the market recover (to the airlines own forecast of 70-80% pre-covid) next summer. That was the focus of the last bid and will remain the objective.

True. Unless there are additional changes to the long term fleet plan that were not reflected in the previous bid.

[Fanblade]

I don't believe the airline will drastically change its overall crew requirements on the next bid, rather shuffle a few positions between types, as it need to maintain flexibility and the ability to recover should the market recover (to the airlines own forecast of 70-80% pre-covid) next summer. That was the focus of the last bid and will remain the objective.

True. Unless there are additional changes to the long term fleet plan that were not reflected in the previous bid.

I would say the fleet plan and next summers schedule are intertwined. Stig is correct AC’s plan is based on next summer. I think next summer’s plan will likely be changing and the new target for 70-80% pre Covid traffic will be summer 2022.

That will force AC into extreme survival mode/restructuring mode before summer 2021 to avoid CCAA. Assuming surviving until 2022 is even a possibility.

I would say all bets are off if AC decides next summer is another write off. I think it would be reasonable to consider the complete grounding of the 777 fleet as a possibility. We likely have no use for them over the medium term. It will be a challenge just putting the 787’s to work.

JMO of course. I think another shoe is going to drop unless government policy, not just here in Canada either, takes a drastic u turn. Which clearly I don’t think is on the radar. Dr. Tam has been quite clear. This will last until 2022 and quarantine will remain part of the government’s Covid strategy. That equates to 15% traffic for nearly another 20 months. Advanced bookings picking up 16-18 months out.

[iflyroads]

Doesn't look like there will be any extra positions added to the bid coming up.

I don't believe the airline will drastically change its overall crew requirements on the next bid, rather shuffle a few positions between types, as it need to maintain flexibility and the ability to recover should the market recover (to the airlines own forecast of 70-80% pre-covid) next summer. That was the focus of the last bid and will remain the objective.

a reduction in mainline bus for an increase in rouge bus is the plan.

[VeRmiLLioN]

Doesn't look like there will be any extra positions added to the bid coming up.

I don't believe the airline will drastically change its overall crew requirements on the next bid, rather shuffle a few positions between types, as it need to maintain flexibility and the ability to recover should the market recover (to the airlines own forecast of 70-80% pre-covid) next summer. That was the focus of the last bid and will remain the objective.

a reduction in mainline bus for an increase in rouge bus is the plan.

or just Rouge coloured planes flown by Mainline pilots. Easier.

[altiplano]

It looks like they're coming for the entrenched-82-hours-and-I-haven't-flown-a-line-in-years bunch at ACPA..