How to Move Forward

[Cessna 180]

Now is not the time to look down upon a “pilot apprentice” position. The pilots who worked ramp jobs were the first ones to get seats when things start moving again and a lot better than retail being completely out of the industry.

I’ll look down on them.

For the last 4 years I was like finally... aviation is done with this bullshit of making pilots do jobs completely unrelated to their profession at rates and hours that would make general labourers scoff. @#$! you Buffalo Joe.. I’m going straight into a Q in YYC.. not slinging bags in Hay River for a chance at a flight attendant position while being in a fishbowl of reality TV.

And especially not for someone who already has some experience. For the 19 year old where daddy paid all of their tuition and they’ve never held a real job in their life? Sure. But not for someone who made themselves a pilot.

This is ruthless opportunism, that’s it. Pretty soon we will see Mr Skydive advertising his “wide body” 182s that you can have an opportunity to pay for your company required initial training on, and if you’re lucky, get a paid position out of it.

And all this does is push down or stagnate wages further up. The best thing you can do is not apply. I’d quit aviation forever before ever doing that.

There's a certain skydive operator that's been doing that for years. Probably still are.

[EPR]

I really wouldn't mind learning a new skill or trade, but again the money aspect comes into play. I just don't have enough money for going back to school.

Some places will convince you that you need to take some amount of 'foundation' courses to enter the trades. Not true. Son is a plumbing apprentice, 4th year. He started down that road by simply getting a job as a labor at a plumbing company. The deal they set out, work as labour for 3 months, if everybody gets along still at the end of that time, sign him up for an apprenticeship using his original start date. He had worked with them for a year before doing the first year of school. He'll do 4th year school this fall, and likely have all the hours in for the apprenticeship when he starts, so the red seal plumbing ticket will be there shortly after finish.

If you get on with a good outfit, you dont need to do school for quite some time, and when it is time for the 6 weeks of classes each year, you can draw EI over that time. Trick is, choose a trade that's in demand so you can find a place that'll hire you of the street without doing the optional 'foundations' courses.

And here's the big hint, in that respect, it's much like a flying job. You wont find that outfit in the big city because they tend to hire folks coming out of the foundation courses in the schools. But get away from the big city into the smaller towns, things change a lot, and those companies tend to hire more on attitude and availability and lots of companies will take somebody on as an apprentice without having been thru those courses.

FWIW, son has not missed a day of work thru this whole episode, in fact has ended up doing significant overtime. Turns out a lot of commercial establishments in his area took the shut down time to do a lot of remodelling and updating on the buildings.

You just described my oldest boy...lol. I always swore I'd never recommend aviation to any of my kids. The last couple of years I did suggest to my poor "middle child", maybe the RCAF... might be an option or ATC, as he was "kinda interested in aviation"(but I knew he didn't have that "burning desire"). Anyways, I'm a very proud Dad of my kids!

[EPR]

SJS, Instructing will never pay the bills! Go get your Tractor-Trailer license for half the price and actually make a livable wage!

[ayseven]

Ramp is a job. Period. All the promises in the world do not change that fact. You have to enjoy it or do not do it - life is just too hard otherwise. I worked construction, washing dishes, door to door surveys, and hotel night clerk, all to pay bills while not flying. You are not defined by flying; you are who you are.

I worked a ramp type job off and on for 4 years, and enjoyed every single minute of it; there were no promises, and although I saw the right seat of a few airplanes, it was never the company recommending this, just pilots I knew pretty well anyways - those days were definitely highlights. I never went anywhere with that company, not even a pilot interview (minimum hours were always just too high for me), but did eventually fly commercially elsewhere.

Work is for making money and living, and doing the things you want. If you enjoy it, you are a very lucky person.

[Tertle]

I can definitely understand how some people's experience would be this way. But it by no means is the norm, there are many 703 companies out there that have great owners/bosses and treat their pilots well.

I for one worked at a great 703 and enjoyed my time there. The flying was challenging and there was always something to deal with like you mention but when you have the support of you CP or Ops Manager who allow you to make a decision it makes a huge difference.

That's great to know. I was pretty shocked at how things worked at the place I was at, but I suppose it's a bit unfair for me to paint all 703 companies under the same brush. I'm glad you managed to find a place like that.

I had similar experiences...

You don’t sound like an “ entitled millennial” you sound like someone I’d really like to work with.

For me, it sounds like you want a safe and fair workplace.
I left 703 for 705 for this exact reason.

FYI - some or the pilots who were willing to brown nose the CP, OPS Man were worse than management itself.

Damn, kind of feels good to know my experience wasn't unique Best of luck to everyone, may the brown nosers rot!

[L1900Edge]

I’m in a crappy spot to be in, and I’m sure there’s many more like me thanks to Covid. I was hoping someone might have some suggestions or advice.

I have less than 500 hours and thanks to what was a pilot shortage, I was very lucky and privileged to find employment at a 705 carrier, and I left my previous job at a 703 up north. Unfortunately, the day before I was supposed to fly out for my groundschool, it was cancelled due to Covid. I briefly returned to my 703 job, but I was laid off from there as well.

Now I’ve got tons of student debt, no job and hardly any flying experience. How would you move forward from this? I’ve considered starting my flight instructor rating, but I’m not fond of the idea of increasing my debt with no guarantee of a job at the end. I can imagine that if any FI jobs do open up, they’d go to ex-instructors who were laid off from the regionals. The job board has completely dried up too, except for that “apprentice pilot” position at Wasaya.

My current plan is to try and find a retail job for the winter and start my FI rating, or to just stay current and then try out the famed road trip next spring in hopes of finding a ramp gig. Are those good ideas or would you try something else? I’d really appreciate any input. A career as a pilot feels pretty hopeless right now and there doesn’t seem to be any real recovery on the horizon.

Learn to code.

[Ash Ketchum]

I’m in a crappy spot to be in, and I’m sure there’s many more like me thanks to Covid. I was hoping someone might have some suggestions or advice.

I have less than 500 hours and thanks to what was a pilot shortage, I was very lucky and privileged to find employment at a 705 carrier, and I left my previous job at a 703 up north. Unfortunately, the day before I was supposed to fly out for my groundschool, it was cancelled due to Covid. I briefly returned to my 703 job, but I was laid off from there as well.

Now I’ve got tons of student debt, no job and hardly any flying experience. How would you move forward from this? I’ve considered starting my flight instructor rating, but I’m not fond of the idea of increasing my debt with no guarantee of a job at the end. I can imagine that if any FI jobs do open up, they’d go to ex-instructors who were laid off from the regionals. The job board has completely dried up too, except for that “apprentice pilot” position at Wasaya.

My current plan is to try and find a retail job for the winter and start my FI rating, or to just stay current and then try out the famed road trip next spring in hopes of finding a ramp gig. Are those good ideas or would you try something else? I’d really appreciate any input. A career as a pilot feels pretty hopeless right now and there doesn’t seem to be any real recovery on the horizon.

Learn to code.

I no longer recommend coding these days. Oversaturated market - I'm trying to break back into it with a bachelors degree in software engineering and have had no luck. A skilled trade would be better I would think.

[fish4life]

To “make it” coding today you can’t just learn how to code, you need to have a lot of talent and imagination/ ingenuity. If a company just wants someone to code stuff they will outsource it to India for $5/ hour.

[Kosiw]

Airlines walk tightrope on pilot furloughs...from Flight Global

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/a ... 63.article

[co-joe]

...
I really wouldn't mind learning a new skill or trade, but again the money aspect comes into play. I just don't have enough money for going back to school. Especially not for multiple years. I can make instructing work, but it's the employment aspect that worries me a bit. If I had a ton of cash, I'd definitely take this opportunity to go back to school and diversify my skills.

...

So just for planning purposes, a first year apprentice in a red seal trade gets paid 50% of jman rate. Look at the NOC (National Occupation Classification) for average salaries country wide to get an idea of what this would be. Electrician, Plumber, and HVAC technician are all usually around $35 an hour, so 1st year wage would be $17.50/ h. Most construction trades also pay 10% vacation on every cheque so your wage is actually 19.25/h. If you work in an industrial or manufacturing setting they will likely bank that 10% and you get 2 weeks paid vacation a year.

When you go to first year school, you get EI minus that 2 week BS. Every year after that they waive the 2 week crap. 1st year school is a tough pill financially to swallow for a lot of people. I didn't find it that hard, but I was working for a company with Merritt benefits and they had a bonus for coming back to them after school, plus you get a 20% pay raise, plus the Harper Economic Action plan paid 1k/ year. It still stings being out of work for 2 months, plus odds are you'll be having to buy tools through the first couple years. Unless you go into heavy duty mechanic, there are no tool write offs unfortunately.

You'll find out quick, which trades are in demand where you live, and which ones pay the best. If you're in Alberta you'll soon realise that no trades are hiring, and they haven't been since 2016.

If I had the choice it would be Elevator Repairman, Sprinkler Fitter, Power Systems Electrician, or Power Lineman. Those are all difficult to get into because they pay the best. Elevators, PLT, and PSE are seriously dangerous work, and sprinklers are boring as shit...

[digits_]

Airlines walk tightrope on pilot furloughs...from Flight Global

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/a ... 63.article

not to worry though:

Now, experts say the pilot shortage has not gone away, but rather been pushed out two to three years.

“We are seeing, in some cases in North America, as much as 15-20% of the pilot seniority lists taking early retirement,” says Murray. “When you combine that with the additional retirements taking place in the next two or three years, we are going to be dealing with a significant shortage as early as 2023-2024.”

Jeesh....

[shimmydampner]

The old prophecy finds new life!

[Peachtrees]

Become a nurse and get paid 50/hr , it's a job guaranteed career, can't go wrong regardless of the "situation" going on right now. I'm seriously considering that or a chef .

[Turboprops]

Become a nurse and get paid 50/hr , it's a job guaranteed career, can't go wrong regardless of the "situation" going on right now. I'm seriously considering that or a chef .

Where do nurses get paid $50/hr? My girlfriend works in a hospital in metro vancouver as a RN, it’s been 2 years and her base pay per hour is still <40/hr.
That being said she still makes a huge amount of money while working 15 days per month

[Launchpad1]

Airlines walk tightrope on pilot furloughs...from Flight Global

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/a ... 63.article

This is like asking a realtor if the housing market is going to falter once the government subsidies start to fall away. Of course not they say, just keep on buying.

CAE does kind of have an inherent interest in talking up the possibility of a rebound and Pilot shortage.