Weight and Balance amendment requirements

[mirobot200]

I'm trying to clarify whether I need to amend the weight and balance report, after carrying out a mod with negligible effect on W/B.

I removed a 0.88lbs weight with change on CG of 0.03% of the envelope, so determined negligible per AC43.13-1B CH 10-1(c).

However, CAR Standard 571 Appendix C states:

(2) Amendments to Weight and Balance
(a) Following a modification or a major repair that involves a change to the empty weight or centre of gravity of an aircraft, the person who made the change shall make an entry into the journey log or approved alternative system as soon as practicable after the change but, at the latest, before the next flight, which shall include: ...

(b) Subject to the requirements of section (1), the particulars in respect of changes to the empty weight or centre of gravity shall be transcribed in the empty weight and balance report, ... , in accordance with the requirements applicable to the transfer of data from the journey log, set out in section 605.96 of the CARs.

(c) Following any change to installed equipment, the weight and balance report equipment list shall be amended to reflect the change.

Am I correct in my understanding of the above that, I have to amend the Weight and Balance Report following ANY modification (Major or Minor), and whether it has a negligible effect on W/B or not is irrelevant?

[Found]

We do a weight and balance often with little change in weight, it doesn't seem to make sense, but when did the government ever make sense.
Do you need to change the equipment list as well, it is a part of the weight and balance.

[mirobot200]

Yeah I figured. No change to the equipment list as I removed the original Cessna cabin speaker (part of Type Design not listed on the equipment list).

[Heliian]

An amendment to the Weight and balance is required whenever equipment is removed or installed, that is easy.

The confusion is coming from the requirement to re-weigh the aircraft. You don't have to re weigh if the change is less than 2%.

[boeingboy]

The cabin speaker was an option on the Cessnas and was included on the original equipment and weight and balance sheets

[Found]

An amendment to the Weight and balance is required whenever equipment is removed or installed, that is easy.

The confusion is coming from the requirement to re-weigh the aircraft. You don't have to re weigh if the change is less than 2%.

I don't think the reweigh of 2% applies anymore, can you find it in the CARs?

[PilotDAR]

I don't think the reweigh of 2% applies anymore, can you find it in the CARs?

I agree that I recall this, and was held to it once by a TC inspector, but, I can't find it in the CARs either. Has this rule changed? I did not get the memo!

[mirobot200]

The cabin speaker was an option on the Cessnas and was included on the original equipment and weight and balance sheets

I tried finding the original equipment weight and balance information for mine but couldn't find it. It's a 1961 150A model, and there was very limited information provided in both the AMM and the POH. My POH/Owners Manual is only 64 pages, and is very basic. I found a 1977 150M POH online, and its almost 200 pages with a lot more information, including the original equipment weight and balance list, which mine lacks.

My W/B Report Equipment List only includes equipment that has been installed as mods/STCs to the original aircraft configuration.
I weighed the speaker, measured the arm, and entered it as "removed" item in the W/B Report amendment.

[PilotDAR]

Yea Miro,

The older Cessnas did not provide equipment lists as the later ones did. Do your best to follow the regulations, and anyone who loots at what you did will see that you did...

[Heliian]

The 2% change requirement has disappeared from record and is now only retained by commercial operators and AMO's as part of their own control manuals.

To clarify the requirements for a weight and balance amendment, CAR 605 Schedule 1 item #2 states that an entry must be made
"Except where an approved fleet empty weight and balance control program is in place, aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity and any change in the aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity"

This entry is to be made : On starting to keep a journey log and on bringing a new volume of an existing log into use and, when a change is made, as soon as practicable after the change but, at the latest, before the next flight

The person responsible for the entry: The owner of the aircraft and, for any change, the person who made the change

[Found]

The 2% change requirement has disappeared from record and is now only retained by commercial operators and AMO's as part of their own control manuals.

To clarify the requirements for a weight and balance amendment, CAR 605 Schedule 1 item #2 states that an entry must be made
"Except where an approved fleet empty weight and balance control program is in place, aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity and any change in the aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity"

This entry is to be made : On starting to keep a journey log and on bringing a new volume of an existing log into use and, when a change is made, as soon as practicable after the change but, at the latest, before the next flight

The person responsible for the entry: The owner of the aircraft and, for any change, the person who made the change

Can you provide an example? As TC is not standard across the country if we could prove other AMO's are doing this maybe we could not have to update the W&B and equipment list for adding or subtracting a part that weighs ounces.

[Heliian]

Can you provide an example? As TC is not standard across the country if we could prove other AMO's are doing this maybe we could not have to update the W&B and equipment list for adding or subtracting a part that weighs ounces.

No, i think you are mixing it up here. The regulations are standard across the country and they say that you have to do an entry. If you remove enough ounces then you'll eventually get to pounds. This stuff needs to be documented.

[Found]

Can you provide an example? As TC is not standard across the country if we could prove other AMO's are doing this maybe we could not have to update the W&B and equipment list for adding or subtracting a part that weighs ounces.

No, i think you are mixing it up here. The regulations are standard across the country and they say that you have to do an entry. If you remove enough ounces then you'll eventually get to pounds. This stuff needs to be documented.

Sorry I misread you here, we just have seen other AMO's write the old negligible change to weight and balance change required. I was hoping to finally see someone approved to write this.

[Heliian]

Can you provide an example? As TC is not standard across the country if we could prove other AMO's are doing this maybe we could not have to update the W&B and equipment list for adding or subtracting a part that weighs ounces.

No, i think you are mixing it up here. The regulations are standard across the country and they say that you have to do an entry. If you remove enough ounces then you'll eventually get to pounds. This stuff needs to be documented.

Sorry I misread you here, we just have seen other AMO's write the old negligible change to weight and balance change required. I was hoping to finally see someone approved to write this.

Ah yes, i imagine that was also changed when the other requirements were updated. Nowadays with everything being digital, it's really easy to create and update w+b forms and equipment lists. Still no reweigh required for private aircraft. It seems asinine but I've even redone the forms for a 35gram change which came out in a service bulletin.

[Found]

No, i think you are mixing it up here. The regulations are standard across the country and they say that you have to do an entry. If you remove enough ounces then you'll eventually get to pounds. This stuff needs to be documented.

Sorry I misread you here, we just have seen other AMO's write the old negligible change to weight and balance change required. I was hoping to finally see someone approved to write this.

Ah yes, i imagine that was also changed when the other requirements were updated. Nowadays with everything being digital, it's really easy to create and update w+b forms and equipment lists. Still no reweigh required for private aircraft. It seems asinine but I've even redone the forms for a 35gram change which came out in a service bulletin.

I do understand following the law, but no one wins when you have to do a weight and balance for a 0.08 pound of a change. This is where we often see other shops not doing an update to the W&B and equipment list.

[Heliian]

Sorry I misread you here, we just have seen other AMO's write the old negligible change to weight and balance change required. I was hoping to finally see someone approved to write this.

Ah yes, i imagine that was also changed when the other requirements were updated. Nowadays with everything being digital, it's really easy to create and update w+b forms and equipment lists. Still no reweigh required for private aircraft. It seems asinine but I've even redone the forms for a 35gram change which came out in a service bulletin.

I do understand following the law, but no one wins when you have to do a weight and balance for a 0.08 pound of a change. This is where we often see other shops not doing an update to the W&B and equipment list.

It only matters if you get into trouble or when selling the aircraft. If you have a current report with an equipment list then perspective buyers will be able to get a quick overview of the state of it. Be sure to include the date last weighed for reference.

[hangarline]

If you make a change to the weight or C of G to an aircraft, a new w&b amendment needs to be done, regardless of how much weight. As the owner of an aircraft, it is in your interests to keep an accurate record of the w & b. If you do not have an accurate record of amendments tracing back to the report from the factory (with corresponding log entries), or last weighing of the aircraft, then you will have to re-weigh the aircraft and start an accurate record from that date forward.(including equipment list) This is of course mandatory for commercial operated aircraft, but should be adhered to in any aircraft.

Yes, this can be time consuming and expensive, which only highlights the importance of keeping accurate logs.

[photofly]

This is of course mandatory for commercial operated aircraft, but should be adhered to in any aircraft.

How is it any different for commercially registered aircraft compared to privately registered aircraft? Can you cite any regulatory difference?

[hangarline]

How is it any different for commercially registered aircraft compared to privately registered aircraft? Can you cite any regulatory difference?

Its not. I apologize for a misleading statement. The difference is that a lot of private aircraft owners would not bother because of the expense involved and the fact nobody is holding them to account. Of course there are private owners that are just as fastidious with their logs as commercial operators.

[Found]

How is it any different for commercially registered aircraft compared to privately registered aircraft? Can you cite any regulatory difference?

Its not. I apologize for a misleading statement. The difference is that a lot of private aircraft owners would not bother because of the expense involved and the fact nobody is holding them to account. Of course there are private owners that are just as fastidious with their logs as commercial operators.

But if the work is done at an AMO they are required to update the W&B if the airplane is commercial or private.

[hangarline]

But if the work is done at an AMO they are required to update the W&B if the airplane is commercial or private.

Absolutely, however not all private owners choose to get their maintenance done at an AMO because of...you guessed it, the extra rate per hour that is charged. And the extra rate that is charged is usually needed to cover things that are required because of regulation.

And again, I understand that not all owners fit in that category, I've just seen enough to get the broad strokes. The ones that do get their maintenance done at a good AMO will understand.

[boeingboy]

I tried finding the original equipment weight and balance information for mine but couldn't find it. It's a 1961 150A model, and there was very limited information provided in both the AMM and the POH. My POH/Owners Manual is only 64 pages, and is very basic. I found a 1977 150M POH online, and its almost 200 pages with a lot more information, including the original equipment weight and balance list, which mine lacks.

My W/B Report Equipment List only includes equipment that has been installed as mods/STCs to the original aircraft configuration.
I weighed the speaker, measured the arm, and entered it as "removed" item in the W/B Report amendment.

No Problem - what you did was fine. I have a 1962 B model and I happen to have the factory delivery sheet still...which showed the options and their weight and moments.

[Pratt Punk]

AC 43.13-1B CHG 1
"c. Negligible Weight Change is any change of one pound or less for aircraft whose weight empty is less than 5,000 pounds; two pounds or less for aircraft whose weight empty is more than 5,000 and 50,000 pounds; and five pounds or less for aircraft whose weight empty is more than 50,000 pounds.
Negligible c. g. change is any change of less than 0.05% MAC for fixed wing aircraft, 0.2 percent of the maximum allowable c. g. range for rotary wing aircraft."