Jazz Recalls?

[Inverted2]

I’m sure Calin is getting out his chequebook to write you all a big bonus as we speak.

Maybe he will sub in the A220 for the YSB and YTS routes with about 20-30 pax per flight. The 787 could do YQM with the bigger runway no problem. Just tell him it’s your flying after all.

[rudder]

I mean when company can literally end your operation, I would have to agree with Genius here. This is AC flying, Jazz is lucky to have the contract. Without Air Canada, Jazz would be tarnished to the levels of bush flying. Air Canada pilots deserve and have the right to fly anything and everything with their brand on it. At the end of the day you guys are regionals, and if WestJet swept up your loyalties would change overnight. Not the case for the real employees.

Good luck getting a ‘cease and desist’ remedy from the arbitrator.

ARIBITRATOR:

“What proportion of normal schedule is AC operating?”

“What proportion of AC pilots are active”

“Why did ACPA agree to a 55 hour MOA?”

“Why is ACPA extending the 55 hour MOA?”

“How have the AC pilots been harmed?”

Having said that, ALL provisions of a CBA remain valid until mutual agreement to set aside. And the FM provision of the ACPA CBA applies to a very narrow issue (minimum block hours).

I don’t see this grievance or remedy changing anything. But it makes for good entertainment and a distraction from the very real crisis facing AC and the industry.

[Malfunction]

The level of garbage on this thread make me sick. ALL I see is scared little boys and girls trying to grab as much as they can. If only pilots could work together instead of against each other. No wonder we are all underpaid.

[flyer 1492]

The level of garbage on this thread make me sick. ALL I see is scared little boys and girls trying to grab as much as they can. If only pilots could work together instead of against each other. No wonder we are all underpaid.

+1

[Sharklasers]

The level of garbage on this thread make me sick. ALL I see is scared little boys and girls trying to grab as much as they can. If only pilots could work together instead of against each other. No wonder we are all underpaid.

This is a grievance between ACPA pilots and their employer, not pilot vs pilot.

How long can ACPA pilots continue to ignore an obvious violation of our scope before it becomes desuetude?

Air Canada isn’t over staffing due to the charity of their hearts, they are staffing to the level of what they are able to train to or what has been negotiate. This grievance is part of the latter, it isn’t a personal attack against regional pilots but merely an attempt to enforce the rule of our contract. I am sure there will be a negotiated settlement soon which will see compensation in either the form of small financial gains similar to that of our wet lease clause or of further deferred furloughs. I am quite confident that this Grievance will not result in further hardship for our regional colleagues but merely a clarification of what is acceptable as we all move towards our new normal.


I am deeply disappointed in any pilot colleague who attempts to paint an effort to enforce our scope provisions and contract language as an act of greed or treason. I would never shame a regional pilot for trying to get or maintain what they were entitled too, we should be trying to lift each other up and part of that will be enforcing and maintaining contract language so that when things turn around our wawcon hasn’t been deeply eroded.

[Malfunction]

Hard times make hard men, soft times makes soft men. We have had a long time with soft times..i see the product from some people in this thread.

[Sharklasers]

Hard times make hard men, soft times makes soft men. We have had a long time with soft times..i see the product from some people in this thread.

Lol what’s are your babbling about? This is about contract enforcement, nothing else. “Hard men” never got anywhere from giving shit away for free. I get it that your sour you are floating around out there with your wet ink atpl and your college diploma that got you straight into Jazz and now you have to go work for a living, that sucks, I hope your back at work soon but not at the expense of an ACPA pilots family if it can be helped.
Good luck man.

[rxl]

It should be easy for all of us to agree that this is economically the worst time in the history of the airline (and just about every other) industry.
At the end of July, the Canadian Press reported that Air Canada lost almost $20 million per DAY through April, May and June, based on the company reported loss of $1.7 Billion for that quarter.
Another thing that we should all agree on is that preserving the integrity of collective agreements is paramount. The potential real world effects, however, of filing a grievance like this at a time like this has to raise a few questions.

The possibility of an arbitrated monetary settlement has been mentioned in this thread. Is this a wise thing to pursue given today’s economic realities?

Should the company not have the operational flexibility to deploy the entire fleet of aircraft that it has under its control in the most economically advantageous way?

Is pursuing this grievance the best way to get your/our brothers and sisters facing furlough back to work as soon as possible?

Is this the best investment of precious time and resources for all parties involved?

Is this the best way to help ensure the long term future and stability of the enterprise and, as a result, our careers?

[rxl]

Duplicate posting. Sorry!

[21cdnflyer]

It should be easy for all of us to agree that this is economically the worst time in the history of the airline (and just about every other) industry.
At the end of July, the Canadian Press reported that Air Canada lost almost $20 million per DAY through April, May and June, based on the company reported loss of $1.7 Billion for that quarter.
Another thing that we should all agree on is that preserving the integrity of collective agreements is paramount. The potential real world effects, however, of filing a grievance like this at a time like this has to raise a few questions.

The possibility of an arbitrated monetary settlement has been mentioned in this thread. Is this a wise thing to pursue given today’s economic realities?

Should the company not have the operational flexibility to deploy the entire fleet of aircraft that it has under its control in the most economically advantageous way?

Is pursuing this grievance the best way to get your/our brothers and sisters facing furlough back to work as soon as possible?

Is this the best investment of precious time and resources for all parties involved?

Is this the best way to help ensure the long term future and stability of the enterprise and, as a result, our careers?

This is why we are the lowest paid pilots on the planet.

[Sharklasers]

It should be easy for all of us to agree that this is economically the worst time in the history of the airline (and just about every other) industry.
At the end of July, the Canadian Press reported that Air Canada lost almost $20 million per DAY through April, May and June, based on the company reported loss of $1.7 Billion for that quarter.
Another thing that we should all agree on is that preserving the integrity of collective agreements is paramount. The potential real world effects, however, of filing a grievance like this at a time like this has to raise a few questions.

The possibility of an arbitrated monetary settlement has been mentioned in this thread. Is this a wise thing to pursue given today’s economic realities?

Should the company not have the operational flexibility to deploy the entire fleet of aircraft that it has under its control in the most economically advantageous way?

Is pursuing this grievance the best way to get your/our brothers and sisters facing furlough back to work as soon as possible?

Is this the best investment of precious time and resources for all parties involved?

Is this the best way to help ensure the long term future and stability of the enterprise and, as a result, our careers?

This site is hilarious.

Pilots at other organizations constantly bitch about Air Canada’s poor contract and working conditions. Then when we try to enforce the contract provisions we do have we are suddenly bad people.

They company can absolutely deploy whichever aircraft under their control that they would like. Either within the confines of the collective agreement wet lease or CPA section or simply with an ACPA Pilot at the controls, in case you haven’t heard there are currently 800 surplus of them to choose from. Those are the pilots (or brothers and sisters as you call them) I am personally interested in getting back to work first.

[mbav8r]

Sharklasers,
You are right to defend your contract or at the very least a temporary MOA to allow some flexibility in return for an extension to the no layoff provisions but when things like, I’m paraphrasing, when this grievance goes through Jazz will be laying off a lot more pilots. What did you expect as a response when half of our pilots are on the street already and come March when our temporary agreement to no more than 70 downgrades is over, it’s very likely that 15 years of service won’t hold left seat.
However, I will say this, in our contract it is mentioned in the fleet guarantee and elsewhere, that the small jet agreement forms a part of this agreement, so contractually Jazz can have a fleet of 50 RJs and 15 705s, notwithstanding any of your scope limits, meaning they don’t count. Also, as someone pointed out, you are still over employed compared to how many are needed, your grievance could have opposite consequences, perhaps force the company to right size.
Jazz management has told us the the flying is expected to remain and 20-30% of what we were supposed to be doing for the rest of the year, I’m not sure how a 70-80% reduction doesn’t fit with the ratio.
Good luck, truly, I have many friends at AC and hope we all come out of this soon.

[the-minister31]

This is a grievance between ACPA pilots and their employer, not pilot vs pilot.

I am deeply disappointed in any pilot colleague who attempts to paint an effort to enforce our scope provisions and contract language as an act of greed or treason. I would never shame a regional pilot for trying to get or maintain what they were entitled too, we should be trying to lift each other up and part of that will be enforcing and maintaining contract language so that when things turn around our wawcon hasn’t been deeply eroded.

The problem isn't with you pressuring AC to explain themselves or compensate you, it is with the guys that now look at the 20-30% or our flying and are pissed *at sky/jza* pilots for taking their flying. I have seen AC pilots on layoff bitching at sky/jza pilots on layoff too that they are flying too much... We are in the same boat, how fucking delusional do you have to be?

I am all for keeping staff on with CEWS for example, or monetery gain, in respect with the agreement, since our WAWCONs are definitely sensitive in Canada. But don't argue that "regionals fly too much", argue that "AC should bring back the 20% that are laid off and keep them on as long as regionals are still flying" or pressuring the federal even more to help airline re-hire their staff...

I am sure that the greivance is in favor of AC pilots gain and not regional pilots loss, but seems like some pilots only want regionals to shutdown because "they steal our routes". That's bullshit.

Even worst, some of those guys where very happy to fly the maple leaf at JZA, proudly saying that they "fly the flag" and suddenly at the first day of ground school at AC, now regionals are just "borrowing the flag" and the Express branding isn't worth shit anymore because they fly the real thing... Those guys do not help your case at all saddly when dealing with regional pilots.

I truly hope that you will get your staff back, that you will win that grievance. I just hope that it won't be at the expense of collegues jobs.

[rxl]

Not sure where I said anything about “bad people”.
We all have a stake in this and need to make sure that the things within our control are on track to help get things back towards normal and to get all of our colleagues back to work no matter what airline they work for. NO ONE’S stake in this is any more or any less important than anyone else’s.
Good luck with the grievance, but I have a hard time seeing how it’s helpful in the current situation.

[21cdnflyer]

NO ONE’S stake in this is any more or any less important than anyone else’s.

When ACPA pilots are jobless and regional guys are getting paycheck, there’s a major issue. So yes, the Air Canada pilot’s stake is what matters here; and is more important.

[Sharklasers]

Not sure where I said anything about “bad people”.
We all have a stake in this and need to make sure that the things within our control are on track to help get things back towards normal and to get all of our colleagues back to work no matter what airline they work for. NO ONE’S stake in this is any more or any less important than anyone else’s.
Good luck with the grievance, but I have a hard time seeing how it’s helpful in the current situation.

I do not understand how you do not understand that this is 0 sum.
Every passenger flown on a MPA/MJA is a passenger not flown on AC mainline metal. So the growth of the Jaz/sky fleet comes at the expense and furlough of an AC pilot. Alot of the trunk routes being flown by the regionals could be flown by mainline with some consolidation. The entire contingent of emb pilots can fly the 175 next week. You cannot possibly argue that there is no harm.
I too am interested in all pilots getting back to work but not at the expense of the ACPA pilots. We are running a union not a charity, we cannot be giving away entire sections of the contract for nothing in return.

Mbav8r, the threat that AC will go out to the desert source and bring back 50 clapped out parked RJ-100s during a time of massive contraction to stick it to the pilot union is silly and you know it.

[rudder]

When ACPA pilots are jobless and regional guys are getting paycheck, there’s a major issue. So yes, the Air Canada pilot’s stake is what matters here; and is more important.

Wow. If you believe that you are either really ignorant or really arrogant.

Prepare yourself to be disappointed.

[altiplano]

If the company needs short term flexibility on this scope issue to right size aircraft on some routes I think AC pilots will be happy to help - we always are - but it comes in exchange for permanent gains.

Otherwise they can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned, as was mentioned, this isn't a charity, there are clear lines on scope and they have already pushed the bar and pilfered too much from our contract. If they don't want to play or the numbers don't work, bring the E175s back. We have guys current that can fly those planes.

[rudder]

If the company needs short term flexibility on this scope issue to right size aircraft on some routes I think AC pilots will be happy to help - we always are - but it comes in exchange for permanent gains.

Otherwise they can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned, as was mentioned, this isn't a charity, there are clear lines on scope and they have already pushed the bar and pilfered too much from our contract. If they don't want to play or the numbers don't work, bring the E175s back. We have guys current that can fly those planes.

It is more likely than not that the COVID crisis is going to accelerate the end of the EMB era for both mainline and Express. Hoping to turn back the hands of time is not a high probability outcome.

Mainline will be smaller. Express will be smaller. But dreams of returning to the times of ‘only AC pilots fly the jets’ are pure folly.

[mbav8r]

If the company needs short term flexibility on this scope issue to right size aircraft on some routes I think AC pilots will be happy to help - we always are - but it comes in exchange for permanent gains.

Otherwise they can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned, as was mentioned, this isn't a charity, there are clear lines on scope and they have already pushed the bar and pilfered too much from our contract. If they don't want to play or the numbers don't work, bring the E175s back. We have guys current that can fly those planes.

Wholeheartedly agree, bring those 175s back, they should have never left your fleet but we all(over 30 years old) know why that happened.

[quote=rxl post_id=<a href="tel:1126523">1126523</a> time=<a href="tel:1599404713">1599404713</a> user_id=40209]
NO ONE’S stake in this is any more or any less important than anyone else’s.

When ACPA pilots are jobless and regional guys are getting paycheck, there’s a major issue. So yes, the Air Canada pilot’s stake is what matters here; and is more important.
[/quote]
How old are you cdnflyer? Seriously, there is major history you’re dealing with here, for starters Jazz was a wholly owned AC company, yes we are under contract but only because AC needed money post bankruptcy and sold it on the market, this seems to be lost on you.
The history of Jazz goes back to 1934 as Austin Airways, two years before TCA. Austin eventually became Air Ontario which is now one of the four that became Jazz. The only reason it’s “Air Canada flying” is ego. This slope you’re on has some slippery ramifications, when unions start fighting for their piece of the pie, you can bet some 100s would be added to the fleet, you’re dreaming if you think otherwise. I also believe there is some replacement language about 3 to 2 , RJs for Q400s, one thing for sure, this could get messy, force majeure has not been used yet. Careful what you wish for and remember who you’re dealing with, Calin Rovinescu rarely if ever is embarrassed by pilots.

[rxl]

If the company needs short term flexibility on this scope issue to right size aircraft on some routes I think AC pilots will be happy to help - we always are - but it comes in exchange for permanent gains.

Agreed.

[planebored]

Scope language is not ego.

Jazz is a contractor, plain and simple. I don't get what is so hard to understand about this.

[rxl]

It should be easy for all of us to agree that this is economically the worst time in the history of the airline (and just about every other) industry.
At the end of July, the Canadian Press reported that Air Canada lost almost $20 million per DAY through April, May and June, based on the company reported loss of $1.7 Billion for that quarter.
Another thing that we should all agree on is that preserving the integrity of collective agreements is paramount. The potential real world effects, however, of filing a grievance like this at a time like this has to raise a few questions.

The possibility of an arbitrated monetary settlement has been mentioned in this thread. Is this a wise thing to pursue given today’s economic realities?

Should the company not have the operational flexibility to deploy the entire fleet of aircraft that it has under its control in the most economically advantageous way?

Is pursuing this grievance the best way to get your/our brothers and sisters facing furlough back to work as soon as possible?

Is this the best investment of precious time and resources for all parties involved?

Is this the best way to help ensure the long term future and stability of the enterprise and, as a result, our careers?

This is why we are the lowest paid pilots on the planet.

Dear 21cdnflyer,

When you’ve walked the picket line 3 times in your career for a total of 4 months like a lot of Jazz pilots and your mainline colleagues have done, you come back and talk to me.

[mbav8r]

Scope language is not ego.

Jazz is a contractor, plain and simple. I don't get what is so hard to understand about this.

This doesn’t warrant a proper response, it’s just too ignorant

[rudder]

Scope language is not ego.

Jazz is a contractor, plain and simple. I don't get what is so hard to understand about this.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the terms of the AC/CHR CPA. It - like the ACPA CBA - is a legally binding contract.