How to get rid of ACPA?

[planebored]

I think it's fucking hilarious.

[Ratherbe]

Kind of cringe worthy. I'm not so out of touch to not know memes can be powerful tools of communication and influence. These facebook-tier memes and videos just end up making you look dumb though. It was funny once or twice now it's getting sad. I want ALPA as much as anybody but I don't think this is the way forward.

Cringeworthy might be a good handle for whoever has created these. It seems their strategy is not to unite our pilots but to target and insult older pilots - anyone older than them I guess? Raymond are you lurking here? Perhaps some of their posts are ageism ie illegal? Maybe it would be better to focus on the actual issue - ACPA or cALPA.

We left CALPA because the “tail was wagging the dog,” the union was in financial distress, and that they had pursued a labour relations experiment (industrial merger) that went horribly wrong. I see a real risk of a retreat to CALPA.

We could expect the c-ALPA Board to pressure our MEC to hand over our work to the regionals. In 1993, when the 243 junior AC pilots got laid off, our “brothers” flying dash 8’s we’re getting promoted. Reluctantly, they allowed us to come over and fly as their FO’s. Now we have a strong scope clause that has the potential to shut them down. ACPA fought for that scope language and gave up pay to get it.

ALPA’s dues are already considerably higher than ours and I would guess that they are considering increases soon. Once their layoffs kick in the dues revenue will crash and unless they slash their staff and resources who will pay for it all? Us? Expect a large increase in ALPA’s dues. I suspect this will be a deal-killer for most AC pilots.

The “experiment” was an example of unbridled entitlement. ACPA won that fight, hands down, after years of negotiations and litigation. I don’t know what kind of experiment these guys want to partake in now but personally I will have none of it.

We are in a once in a lifetime event that is threatening all of our careers. We need stability. Yes we will have to change but not retreating to a past failure. ACPA looks after AC pilots only and anyone suggesting we should do otherwise will not get my vote, especially someone not even living in this country.

[planebored]

We are in a once in a lifetime event that is threatening all of our careers. We need stability. Yes we will have to change but not retreating to a past failure. ACPA looks after AC pilots only and anyone suggesting we should do otherwise will not get my vote, especially someone not even living in this country.

Who's that?

One of the many Sr skippers living in the Caribbean or Bellingham/Lynden WA to get around Canadian taxes?

The current YVR rep doesn't live in Vancouver. Honestly I don't really care where someone lives as long as they represent me well.

Lastly a move to ALPA is not retreating and you need to stop thinking CALPA = ALPA.

We'll have our chance to vote on it, and you'll have your voice. If it's what the majority want then it's what we do.

I personally think it's time AC pilots stop living on an island.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

We are in a once in a lifetime event that is threatening all of our careers. We need stability. Yes we will have to change but not retreating to a past failure. ACPA looks after AC pilots only and anyone suggesting we should do otherwise will not get my vote, especially someone not even living in this country.


This comment is a perfect metaphor of why we need to toss ACPA to the curb. Our leadership gave itself a pay raise after reducing pay for its members. It removed communication from its furloughs. It defended the worst website this side of the solar system.

The entire industry is failing and we need true unity across all airlines. The government is not our friend right now. They may literally watch us sink with endless restrictions and no plan. ACPA's response is comical at best. We have a CEO making $350k/year and his response has been 1 letter written to the government. We have zero strategy. Zero social media. Zero brand. Zero visibility.

Other unions do not look up to us. When I spoke to other aviation professionals about coming to AC, most had apprehension towards joining an organization that is so hard on its junior members

Managers continue to easily divide & circle us. We need a proper structure to operate. We need to be a force in aviation. This is simply not happening at ACPA.

And that comment about "being out of country" has me chuckling all the way to the crapper. I personally like the idea of someone who see's what a real union can do for it's workers. Look no further than yesterday with United Airlines. Don't worry - ALPA perhaps won't even take us after seeing our dismal performance as of late. They have a brand, you know

[Mrbobmarly111]

.... But that Island is paradise well at least in my mind

[planebored]

.... But that Island is paradise well at least in my mind

Probably because it's all you've known for years and forget (or don't know what it's like now... in 2020) off that Island.

Keep keeping your head in the sand if you like.

I know I, and many others are done waiting for ACPA to finally show up and do something substantial that justifies its existence.

[planebored]

We are in a once in a lifetime event that is threatening all of our careers. We need stability. Yes we will have to change but not retreating to a past failure. ACPA looks after AC pilots only and anyone suggesting we should do otherwise will not get my vote, especially someone not even living in this country.


This comment is a perfect metaphor of why we need to toss ACPA to the curb. Our leadership gave itself a pay raise after reducing pay for its members. It removed communication from its furloughs. It defended the worst website this side of the solar system.

The entire industry is failing and we need true unity across all airlines. The government is not our friend right now. They may literally watch us sink with endless restrictions and no plan. ACPA's response is comical at best. We have a CEO making $350k/year and his response has been 1 letter written to the government. We have zero strategy. Zero social media. Zero brand. Zero visibility.

Other unions do not look up to us. When I spoke to other aviation professionals about coming to AC, most had apprehension towards joining an organization that is so hard on its junior members

Managers continue to easily divide & circle us. We need a proper structure to operate. We need to be a force in aviation. This is simply not happening at ACPA.

And that comment about "being out of country" has me chuckling all the way to the crapper. I personally like the idea of someone who see's what a real union can do for it's workers. Look no further than yesterday with United Airlines. Don't worry - ALPA perhaps won't even take us after seeing our dismal performance as of late. They have a brand, you know

I think I know who he's talking about now... And that individual AFAIK has been back in Canada for the last year or so and recently made a permanent move to Vancouver.

Given the fact he's had the opportunity for years to bail out and go fly in the USA with his wife, but sticks it out here at AC is enough for me to know where his loyalties lie.

['97 Tercel]

I heard the new MOA is pretty good all considered.

Does AC know something about the future of air travel demand?

[planebored]

I heard the new MOA is pretty good all considered.

Does AC know something about the future of air travel demand?

It's better than I thought it would be, mind you the bar was set pretty low.

At least they are acknowledging the 75 hour flat pay problem from MOA1.


On a related note anyone else find it hard to believe it's only been 6 months? Man... Feels like it's been a year or more since covid started.

[Curiousflyer]

I heard the new MOA is pretty good all considered.

Does AC know something about the future of air travel demand?

It's better than I thought it would be, mind you the bar was set pretty low.

At least they are acknowledging the 75 hour flat pay problem from MOA1.


On a related note anyone else find it hard to believe it's only been 6 months? Man... Feels like it's been a year or more since covid started.

There are some scope items given up, ratios on rouge, JV, and codeshares.

[planebored]

I saw that, but is it really a big issue if it's just JV and codeshare?

Now the Rouge ratios, I'm not OK with. That's a big deal and I think a bid of a red herring.

[landshark]

It’s for 6 months - I don’t think RV is going to be doing too much within that period.

[RippleRock]

.

[iflyroads]

I saw that, but is it really a big issue if it's just JV and codeshare?

The JV issue allows the company to take the 45 passengers booked on their YYZ to FRA flight to be put on a Lufthansa flight and cancel the AC flight. Essentially the Lufthansa pilots doing ACPA work.

Simplistic view and a lot more to it but it's just one of the many main concerns.

[Daniel Cooper]

For 6 months. I've yet to see any of the sky is falling alarmists explain how it doesn't snap back to contract at the end of the 6 months.

Are we going to let the company continue putting people on the street over 2 hours a month while many of us are going to get paid to sit at home? Because I believe that is what's going to happen. This is a business not a charity.

[Dry Guy]

The JV issue allows the company to take the 45 passengers booked on their YYZ to FRA flight to be put on a Lufthansa flight and cancel the AC flight.

Good? Sending a 250 passenger airplane flying with 45 people is not a money making proposition. Neither is competing against a partner airline that got a 10 billion dollar government bailout while we probably won't get anything.

[skypirate88]

The article 1 lets were in COVID MOA 1 already, read item 12. The barn door has been opened for 6 months already.

[Curiousflyer]

MOA #2 is a bag of crap. Just like the "union" that is proposing it.

Does it include the MEC continuing at 82 hrs while the Membership languish at 63 --- 2 hours below the Contract bare minimum??

Article 1 should have been sewn up tight, with NO outstanding grievance. Any "Flat-payer" that votes in favor now gets what they deserve down-line. Let a clear violation of Article 1 go unattended now, and your career is done. Over and out.

Get us a real union. Don't bother wasting your dues on this one, the charity option will get you further.

These scope ratios are nothing new. They are have been “Given up” already in MOA1.0. I don’t recall seeing the outrage about this anywhere 6 months ago.

[RippleRock]

I have been asked to remove my posts as they do not follow the "narrative".

I guess the quotes will stay.

[RippleRock]

Good luck with things.

[Daniel Cooper]

These "Flat-payers" you deride are not going to be easily influenced by fear mongering. They've been subjected to it their whole lives by the media and have become numbed.

Do you know what's actually scary? Having a real layoff notice already in your hand during a major economic downturn when nobody is hiring.

Or Force Majeure, when the company can just stop paying anyone that's not flying. No block guarantees . That's real and it's in the contract.

[RippleRock]

.

[Daniel Cooper]

Can you say why it doesn't snap back to contract in 6 months when the MOA ends? I haven't seen any of the doomsayers explain that yet.

[PT6onH20]

Again vote Scope away for a few buck if you sleep better.

Ripple, Flat payer here- hard to go convey tone, so I wanna make clear I’m not stoking your fire. But help me see it the way you do - Spell it out for me.

My understanding of MOU2 is that the scope/JV lets are for 6 months, after that we go back to the 10 yr plan or work out a new MOU. With the demand as low as it is, I see this scope/JV point as using the right aircraft for the trip, and if that means consolidating and putting our pax on another airline, so be it. Do we really need WBs going across with 70 pax?

What am I missing?

[RippleRock]

?