The personal log book thing.

[Fatass]

Well,

I haven't had a log in years, no trouble over here yet.

stl

That is not good. Just don't let the Doctor know at medical time or you could be grounded.

[Cat Driver]

I wonder what the implications are as far as insurance is concerned?

No, the regulators have no connection with nor interest in what qualifications an insurance company requires.

When dealing with any foreign regulator they will have what ever requirement the person you are dealing with asks for.

Probably the reason I have never been asked for a personal log book is all my foreign authorizations were requested by my employers and good old politics rules every time.

Then as the years pass it gets easier because these people have a jungle drum message system that works real well.

For instance the last foreign regulator that I am associated with was the Greek HCAA, during the process of setting up the sea plane airline in Greece they made the decision that it would be better for all concerned if I were working for the HCAA as they could foresee other companies becoming involved in operating sea planes in that area for the simple reason the area lends its self to sea plane operations.

The idea was to try and set up the best rules and regulations for such an operation that would be acceptable to EASA.

Anyhow after several months I agreed to accepting the offer that the HCAA made to me.

Here comes the interesting part that all of you should remember.

One day I said to the head of the HCAA licensing department ,xxx , why did you offer me such a job considering I am about as far from a bureaucrat as the human mind could conceive of?

His answer really surprised me.

He said you are well known around the world for being someone who can be trusted and you can't be bought off, we trust you and we have enough bureaucrats anyhow.

I am not relating this just to stroke my own dick, because I am basically finished with aviation anyhow.

I am relating this to try and impress on all you young people that integrity is still something that is worth its weight in gold.

Being known as untrustworthy will never be of any value in any normal society.

[sky's the limit]

I am relating this to try and impress on all you young people that integrity is still something that is worth its weight in gold.

This is probably the single most important thing anyone can learn here. Integrity is key, perhaps if more people had it, we'd be fresh out of topics to discuss on here... One day, perhaps.

stl

[MichaelP]

if more people had it, we'd be fresh out of topics to discuss on here

You mean that with 'integrity' there's no aviation?

I know of a Thai pilot who wrote in twin time in his logbook in order to get the TG job.
They put him on the 747 course and then he fell out with his girlfriend... "Hell have no fury....", and she told TG about his false logbook and they rightly fired him.
He now has a job flying heavies in the middle east.

From my point of view, misrepresentation in one's logbook is one of the worst crimes a pilot can commit.
It is an insult to all who genuinely worked to build real experience.

[sky's the limit]

From my point of view, misrepresentation in one's logbook is one of the worst crimes a pilot can commit.

As far as crimes against aviation, I really can't get too worked up about Parker time to be honest. I've seen pilots flying shit heap a/c for months on end not reporting snags, letting mntc slide when the AME is too busy/lazy to do it right, overloading in the extreme and as a matter of course, conducting flights in conditions far beyond either their own or the a/c's capabilities, exceeding engine/transmission limits, and on and on. Things that can, and will, hurt themselves, paying customers, and maybe even me at some point.

If a company has the right people in place, those who forge logbooks will get caught, those who don't obviously learn fast enough to be competent, but integrity in others areas is what concerns me the most.

People are so hung up on time, be nice if skills meant the same to most pilots as "hours." They sure aren't the same thing...

stl

[Hornblower]

You bring up an interesting point: Statute of Limitations.

There are none on the CARs. You can be charged with a
contravention 10 or 100 years after the alleged occurrence.

Actually I wasn't talking about that. I was saying since there are no requirements relating to the point in time when the records you referred to are required to be made, such as in CAR 605 tech log requirements (i.e. before the next flight, or within 30 days), you can make them whenever you want, including at a point after you are asked to produce them. There is not even a requirement that they be accurate such as in 605.93(1). My point was that they really amount to guidance, and could not realistically be enforced.

As for the statute of limitations, I believe that you are wrong there also, for the Aeronautics Act section 26. states: No proceedings under sections 7.6 to 8.2 or by way of summary conviction under this Act may be instituted after twelve months from the time when the subject-matter of the proceedings arose.

[Cat Driver]

Hornblower, I think what Hedley is trying to say is TCCA can and do make arbitrary decisions on who, when and what they decide to do when laying charges.

What is written in the Aeronautics Act, the CAR's or anywhere else has no bearing on what they can do.

I know some of you have difficulty believing that but Hedly and I have unequivocal proof they do.

[FADEC]

I was asked for my logbook in Heathrow when being ramp checked on a 777 by the CAA.
Fortunately, I have such a thing and the Inspector was happy with my "Recency".
The F/O was not asked; good thing, he didn't have one and we would have been grounded.

AOPA just pointed out that a logbook is a legal requirement in the US as well.

My logbook is not a fancy blue book purchased at great expense, but rather a little red "Crew Log" sold by various aviation stores.
Make sure the required details are in it.

Why are some so childish that they refuse to do the obvious?

Transport can ask you to prove your recency; unless crew sked can provide you with an instant copy over the data link, you might just have a bad day.

For those without corporate support, keeping a small book or electronic record is very simple and will certainly come in handy at some point.

An Aviation Lawyer will be very happy to represent you if required; bring some cash!

[ahramin]

I don't see how an airline could operate without some way of tracking recency. Couldn't the F/O have simply logged in to that system and displayed it?

[digits_]

I was asked for my logbook in Heathrow when being ramp checked on a 777 by the CAA.
Fortunately, I have such a thing and the Inspector was happy with my "Recency".
The F/O was not asked; good thing, he didn't have one and we would have been grounded.

AOPA just pointed out that a logbook is a legal requirement in the US as well.

My logbook is not a fancy blue book purchased at great expense, but rather a little red "Crew Log" sold by various aviation stores.
Make sure the required details are in it.

Why are some so childish that they refuse to do the obvious?

Transport can ask you to prove your recency; unless crew sked can provide you with an instant copy over the data link, you might just have a bad day.

For those without corporate support, keeping a small book or electronic record is very simple and will certainly come in handy at some point.

An Aviation Lawyer will be very happy to represent you if required; bring some cash!

Do you carry a logbook showing all your ground training and recency for that training as well?
Commercially speaking, it's just as important as flight currency.

[iflyforpie]

I do carry my PPC card, elementary maintenance card, dangerous goods card... etc etc. Plus lots of calendar things are tracked by the company and a quick call to the CP or even a log in to Aerostudies will answer all of the other stuff pretty quickly if it came to it.

I have my logbook on my phone and it’s always up to date with entries as well as showing recency and currency, etc.

I don’t like to give anyone any excuses to make my life miserable.. and it’s worked out pretty good so far.

The not keeping a logbook group is like the anti-maskers. They think that they are being “wolves” instead of sheep. But I’ve seen a lot of wolves.. dirty, mangy, starving, cold, and lots of times.. dead. Any wonder they took up the offer of free food 10,000 years ago.

All you’re doing is showing how sensitive you are to trivial things...and ironically.. it’s often as you blindly follow another crowd.

[co-joe]

What ever happened to STL anyway?

[PeterParker]

Until I went digital with my logbook recently, I never carried my logbook with me all the time. Wouldn't it be reasonable to have some time to provide proof of currency if someone uses a paper logbook?

[valleyboy]

Some people are very anal and keep immaculate log books and I guess it's a wonderful record of where and what you have done. I wasn't one of those. I think my last entry in a log book was circa 1974, ironically I was never requested to produce a log book for employment after that, maybe the industry was a lot smaller then. I do have some regrets on not keeping it up but more regrettable was the lack of photos I took. If anything I think that would be what I would do if I had a chance to do it all over again. Like the old saying(thousand words thingy), a picture means a lot more than a printed line in a log book.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Personally I log all my flights in a paper log book. With 43 years of flying I am now on book number 5. Occasionally I browse my old logs and even the brief entries brings back old memories some good, some bad, some funny and some scary. I keep a picture album with a date on the pictures so I can cross reference the log entry. A friend of mine actually glues pictures in his log book but I never got that organized.

After you have all your licenses and ratings there is no CAR's requirement to keep a log but for me the ability to look back at my flying, alone is justification for taking the 2 minutes to jot down the details of my last flight

One issue that has not been mentioned is completing insurance pilot experience forms. I am on the insurance on 5 different private airplanes. Filling out these forms is a lot easier if you have a current logbook to reference. This matters as you are signing the insurance form which will have a statement that you are attesting to the accuracy of you information.

Finally I am with pie. Not keeping a log book simply because you see this a giving a finger to the man strikes me as a poor reason......

[digits_]

After you have all your licenses and ratings there is no CAR's requirement to keep a log

Don't you need to be able to prove recency/currency?

[Schooner69A]

Started keeping a logbook in 1957; latest entry is a few weeks ago.

Kept for personal satisfaction...

[Big Pistons Forever]

After you have all your licenses and ratings there is no CAR's requirement to keep a log

Don't you need to be able to prove recency/currency?

A journey log book entry will suffice

[digits_]

After you have all your licenses and ratings there is no CAR's requirement to keep a log

Don't you need to be able to prove recency/currency?

A journey log book entry will suffice

How would that work if you get ramp checked in plane B but it is your flight in plane A that made you current?

[photofly]

In Canada there's no power for an inspector to ad-hoc ground an airplane absent a pressing and immediate safety concern over airworthiness (bits are falling off) nor are you required to demonstrate you meet recency requirements in the moment. If there are airworthiness or other issues then it's still your choice to take off, albeit you might be on the receiving end of an enforcement action in due course.

The documents you have to carry on board an aircraft are well documented: airworthiness certificate, registration, insurance, aviation document booklet and any other medical certificate that's needed. No need to carry a log book.

Requirement to keep a personal log: it seems fairly clear cut that you have to *keep* a personal log:

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log ...

And it goes on to say what has to be in the log "in respect of each flight".

I cannot interpret that any other way than to understand you *must* keep a logbook, and it must have a record of every flight you make using the priviliges of your permit, licence or rating.

Now 401.08(1) is not a notified regulation, so there's no monetary penalty for disobeying. That leaves TC the option of judicial (court) action or the threat of withdrawing your licence or permit. Both seem a little heavy handed, but....

[digits_]

Requirement to keep a personal log: it seems fairly clear cut that you have to *keep* a personal log:

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log ...

And it goes on to say what has to be in the log "in respect of each flight".

I cannot interpret that any other way than to understand you *must* keep a logbook, and it must have a record of every flight you make using the priviliges of your permit, licence or rating.

That's only to acquire a license or show recency. You don't have to do it for every flight. The "each flight" refers to each flight in section 1).

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and

(b) recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder’s name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

(e) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

(g) the flight time;

(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and

(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

(3) No person shall make an entry in a personal log unless the person

(a) is the holder of the log; or

(b) has been authorized to make the entry by the holder of the log.

[photofly]

I don't interpret it the way you do. My interpretation is that the purpose of the log is to show recency, and for that purpose, you are required to log every single flight.

But there's never going to be a "right" answer, because there's no enforcement.

[digits_]

I don't interpret it the way you do. My interpretation is that the purpose of the log is to show recency, and for that purpose, you are required to log every single flight.

But there's never going to be a "right" answer, because there's no enforcement.

If the goal was to log every flight, then why would they specify you need it for recency? Why not just state you need to log every flight?

[photofly]

Dunno. If they only want you to log some flights, why not say you must log only as many flights as necessary to be able to demonstrate recency. It's not the only regulation that's worded somewhat ambiguously.

[digits_]

Dunno. If they only want you to log some flights, why not say you must log only as many flights as necessary to be able to demonstrate recency.

Isn't that exactly what (1) does? It doesn't specify "only", as you are allowed to log as much as you want.

It's not the only regulation that's worded somewhat ambiguously.

Maybe, but they rarely add useless info. If they wrote it like this instead of "log everything", it's probably safe to say you don't have to "log everything". I can't find any other reason why they would write it this way and still expect you to log everything, yet don't want to write "log everything".