The personal log book thing.

[photofly]

The discussion about falsification Comes from here:

I have always wondered, is the personal log book considered a legal document? Aircraft log books are and to falsify entries is a criminal offence. I have never heard of anyone being charged for padding their times, even when they get caught by their employer, Air Canada but I know of people and airlines being charged for false aircraft logbook entries.

[digits_]

You still need a logbook (as you are a holder of a license and need to show recency). According to the CARs, if you need a logbook, you need to log every flight.

No, you need to log every flight needed to show recency.

[valleyboy]

The total irony of it is that TC does not go by your log book if there is a question of currency or legality. If they consider you might be in violation they will not just take your log book information. They will ferret out your the journey logs, which there is no question, it's a legal document and they want an airtight case if there are charges. If they don't do this and you challenge they know it will be thrown out. They might violate you and hope intimidation cause you to just plead guilty, oh ya you are guilty until you can prove it not to be true. Surprising the number of pilots who will just lay down. As soon as you do not have a certified and witnessed log book what does that acutely prove. Night flights, they may take your log book as being OK but if there is any question you will need to produce actual aircraft documentation.

There is a lot of confusion to what constitutes a log. I maintain, as it's written imn the regs, there are none certified by transport canada as an official government log book. There is a format that is required but as far as I'm concerned you can keep it on toilet paper if you so choose.

Now you have to realise I am looking at this from a commercial, working pilot point of view. The company keeps records and this satisfies any logging requirements. Once you cross over from general aviation, no one produces log books to conduct training, PPC's or any other currency issues. Even new type endorsements, no log book. I never even checked log books when I was hiring.

My last log book entry was in 1974 and I have never needed to produce one since. That shows you how important it is. If I walk into a place to rent an aircraft I can rent without producing a personal log. They will check my licences and if they meet the requirements I do their training and I'm in. Once you achieve your ATP you have established an experience level that they can accept.

Even if I were a private pilot with IFR and a night rating I would still take pictures of the journey log to prove my currency and produce those if asked. I think you would find that's all TC is looking for, they really don't care about a personal log book if you have documentation that is traceable and easy to find. I know I would never accept a personal log book as being accurate. When I started fly I only logged air time and was so surprised when pilots who started a year or more behind me passed me in total time in one season. I guess adding an hour of taxi time on a 20 minute flight adds up, especially with 15 hour days and the average of 10 trips a day. -- damn !! That's"legal" padding as far as I'm concerned. I guess that's why I have maintained my mindset to dismiss a personal log book as being possible bullshit. That's why qualifications during hiring was all I looked for and would take the time on the CV as a starting point of the interview and I could pretty much tell you if the guy was truthful about his experience level. Personal log books after I achieved the highest license possible became something I wasn't interested in any more. People ask me what my total time is, I can't honestly answer that but I do say that in 1974 I had more than 5000 hours so I let them do the math. We flew our asses off and ski season on the DC flying as much as 60 hours a week or more and not a day off for the whole season except for WX. In YRB they were doing even more. Times have changed and for the most part for the good. FLD times and fatigue is slowly moving to where they should be but a lot of push back from carriers, especially in 703 where they are needed to most.

Final point, if you are not certifying your personal log continuously by a third and qualified person or keeping a reference to journey logs. It's just a piece of personal information produced by you and no real legal standing.

cheers

[AuxBatOn]

You still need a logbook (as you are a holder of a license and need to show recency). According to the CARs, if you need a logbook, you need to log every flight.

No, you need to log every flight needed to show recency.

Nope. If you need to maintain a log (there are two reasons you would be required to maintain a log: show recency and apply for a license/permit/rating), you need to log every flight.

[AuxBatOn]

The total irony of it is that TC does not go by your log book if there is a question of currency or legality. If they consider you might be in violation they will not just take your log book information. They will ferret out your the journey logs, which there is no question, it's a legal document and they want an airtight case if there are charges. If they don't do this and you challenge they know it will be thrown out. They might violate you and hope intimidation cause you to just plead guilty, oh ya you are guilty until you can prove it not to be true. Surprising the number of pilots who will just lay down. As soon as you do not have a certified and witnessed log book what does that acutely prove. Night flights, they may take your log book as being OK but if there is any question you will need to produce actual aircraft documentation.

There is a lot of confusion to what constitutes a log. I maintain, as it's written imn the regs, there are none certified by transport canada as an official government log book. There is a format that is required but as far as I'm concerned you can keep it on toilet paper if you so choose.

Now you have to realise I am looking at this from a commercial, working pilot point of view. The company keeps records and this satisfies any logging requirements. Once you cross over from general aviation, no one produces log books to conduct training, PPC's or any other currency issues. Even new type endorsements, no log book. I never even checked log books when I was hiring.

My last log book entry was in 1974 and I have never needed to produce one since. That shows you how important it is. If I walk into a place to rent an aircraft I can rent without producing a personal log. They will check my licences and if they meet the requirements I do their training and I'm in. Once you achieve your ATP you have established an experience level that they can accept.

Even if I were a private pilot with IFR and a night rating I would still take pictures of the journey log to prove my currency and produce those if asked. I think you would find that's all TC is looking for, they really don't care about a personal log book if you have documentation that is traceable and easy to find. I know I would never accept a personal log book as being accurate. When I started fly I only logged air time and was so surprised when pilots who started a year or more behind me passed me in total time in one season. I guess adding an hour of taxi time on a 20 minute flight adds up, especially with 15 hour days and the average of 10 trips a day. -- damn !! That's"legal" padding as far as I'm concerned. I guess that's why I have maintained my mindset to dismiss a personal log book as being possible bullshit. That's why qualifications during hiring was all I looked for and would take the time on the CV as a starting point of the interview and I could pretty much tell you if the guy was truthful about his experience level. Personal log books after I achieved the highest license possible became something I wasn't interested in any more. People ask me what my total time is, I can't honestly answer that but I do say that in 1974 I had more than 5000 hours so I let them do the math. We flew our asses off and ski season on the DC flying as much as 60 hours a week or more and not a day off for the whole season except for WX. In YRB they were doing even more. Times have changed and for the most part for the good. FLD times and fatigue is slowly moving to where they should be but a lot of push back from carriers, especially in 703 where they are needed to most.

Final point, if you are not certifying your personal log continuously by a third and qualified person or keeping a reference to journey logs. It's just a piece of personal information produced by you and no real legal standing.

cheers

What you are required to maintain in a log is detailed in 401.08(2). If the journey logs contain that information, you can take pictures and maintain your log that way. If you want to scribble that information on a white piece of paper, you go for it. Format is not mandated. The information your log contains is mandated. Note that being certified is not required. It doesn’t prevent it from being official. TC, in this case, trust that pilots are honest in how they log flights. If people are caught falsifying their logs, there are penalties associated with it.

[photofly]

Final point, if you are not certifying your personal log continuously by a third and qualified person or keeping a reference to journey logs. It's just a piece of personal information produced by you and no real legal standing.

cheers

That is not true. A log is required to be kept, as dictated under the regulation issued pursuant to the Aeronautics Act, which itself states:

28 In any action or proceeding under this Act, an entry in any record required under this Act to be kept is, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, proof of the matters stated therein as against the person who made the entry or was required to keep the record or, where the record was kept in respect of an aeronautical product, aerodrome or other aviation facility, against the owner or operator of the product, aerodrome or facility.”

It is settled law that when a written record is required In law to be kept, that record stands as evidence of the truth of its contents, unless evidence can be adduced to show its falsity. This is particularly important in fields like medicine, where the medical chart is taken to be the truth of what actually happened, unless you can show otherwise. And it’s why there are stiff penalties for falsifying a record.

[digits_]

You still need a logbook (as you are a holder of a license and need to show recency). According to the CARs, if you need a logbook, you need to log every flight.

No, you need to log every flight needed to show recency.

Nope. If you need to maintain a log (there are two reasons you would be required to maintain a log: show recency and apply for a license/permit/rating), you need to log every flight.

Lets say I do a flight test with 6 landings in January. I don't log a single flight after that. I only fly in March. I then do another checkride next January. Which CAR did I violate? For my flight in March I can show my recency if requested. For my next checkride the flight from one year ago is sufficient.

The CARs don't say to log every flight to show recency. They merely say that for each flight you log to prove recency, a certain amount of info needs to be recorded.

[photofly]

What will you do when you want to fly in November with passengers?

[AuxBatOn]

No, you need to log every flight needed to show recency.

Nope. If you need to maintain a log (there are two reasons you would be required to maintain a log: show recency and apply for a license/permit/rating), you need to log every flight.

Lets say I do a flight test with 6 landings in January. I don't log a single flight after that. I only fly in March. I then do another checkride next January. Which CAR did I violate? For my flight in March I can show my recency if requested. For my next checkride the flight from one year ago is sufficient.

The CARs don't say to log every flight to show recency. They merely say that for each flight you log to prove recency, a certain amount of info needs to be recorded.

Read the CARs carefully. 401.08(1) spells the conditions requiring you to maintain a log. If you have to show recency, you need to maintain a log.

401.08(2) tells you the how to maintain a log (when you need to maintain one). One of the condition identified is to log each flight. It doesn’t say only the flights to show recency.

[mijbil]

When I started fly I only logged air time and was so surprised when pilots who started a year or more behind me passed me in total time in one season. I guess adding an hour of taxi time on a 20 minute flight adds up, especially with 15 hour days and the average of 10 trips a day. -- damn !! That's"legal" padding as far as I'm concerned.

VB I can see your point. I know in the USAF and USN they only log airtime. In the RCAF it was "engines on" to "engines off" which meant moving under your own power with the intent to go flying until the final resting spot. For the helo crowd it was from rotor engagement.
At the airline it's from door close to door open which is concurrent with the money clock.
I don't have a problem logging taxi time. I look at it this way. Can I be violated while taxiing? Could an emergency occur such that an evacuation is required? The only time I wouldn't log it would be if we taxied out and then returned without ever taking off.

I do like your point about a logbook needing to be certified. In the RCAF, it was stamped and signed off every month. In the civ world, I try to get a chief pilot or DFO to sign it off at least annually but for the other 11 months it's basically me self certifying. Does TC have a plan to make logbooks as legal as journey logs? I doubt it.
Maybe the Pakistanis will come up with a workable method shortly. They seem to have a bit of a documentation problem at the moment. https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... 20by%20CNN.

[digits_]

Read the CARs carefully. 401.08(1) spells the conditions requiring you to maintain a log. If you have to show recency, you need to maintain a log.

401.08(2) tells you the how to maintain a log (when you need to maintain one). One of the condition identified is to log each flight. It doesn’t say only the flights to show recency.

I have read it carefully. I've even quoted it a couple of times in the previous posts. I've asked it before, but it might have gotten lost. In your interpretation, you basically need to log every flight. If so, why aren't the rules just written like that, that you need to log every flight? It's because you don't have to.

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and

(b) recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder’s name and the following information in respect of each flight:

Each flight refers to each flight in the log. Not each flight you've flown. If you can document your recency, you've maintained the log as per 401/08 (1) (b).

We can see a similar train of thought in the new drone regulations:

Access to Certificate and Proof of Recency
901.57 No pilot shall operate a remotely piloted aircraft system under this Division unless both of the following are easily accessible to the pilot during the operation of the system:

(a) the pilot certificate — small remotely piloted aircraft (VLOS) — basic operations issued under section 901.55 or the pilot certificate — small remotely piloted aircraft (VLOS) — advanced operations issued under section 901.64; and

(b) documentation demonstrating that the pilot meets the recency requirements set out in section 901.56

They need to demonstrate that they meet the recency requirements. Nothing more.

Some other recency requriements regulations:

(3.2) The holder of a Canadian pilot licence endorsed with an instrument rating or to which is attached instrument rating privileges shall retain a record of having met the applicable recency requirement set out in subsection (3) or (3.1) for three years.

All they need is proof you were recent for your flights. For some people that might mean having to log every flight, for most of us, it doesn't.

[AuxBatOn]

Each flight refers to each flight in the log. Not each flight you've flown. If you can document your recency, you've maintained the log as per 401/08 (1) (b)

That’s an assumption you are making. The way it is written, you must log each flight.

[digits_]

Each flight refers to each flight in the log. Not each flight you've flown. If you can document your recency, you've maintained the log as per 401/08 (1) (b)

That’s an assumption you are making. The way it is written, you must log each flight.

Isn't that an assumption too?

You didn't answer my question: why would the regulator write that you need to record flights to demonstrate recency if they really wanted you to log each and every flight?

[AuxBatOn]

Each flight refers to each flight in the log. Not each flight you've flown. If you can document your recency, you've maintained the log as per 401/08 (1) (b)

That’s an assumption you are making. The way it is written, you must log each flight.

Isn't that an assumption too?

You didn't answer my question: why would the regulator write that you need to record flights to demonstrate recency if they really wanted you to log each and every flight?

No it isn’t an assumption. It is written that way.

The regulator just sets the conditions of when you need to log flights. As I demonstrated earlier, there are instances where someone doesn’t need to log flights. Explicitly stating who needs to log flights allows people not in those categories not to log anything. Otherwise, would a passenger need to log flights?

[digits_]

What will you do when you want to fly in November with passengers?

Do 5 take offs and landings, log that flight, then take your pax with you.

[digits_]

That’s an assumption you are making. The way it is written, you must log each flight.

Isn't that an assumption too?

You didn't answer my question: why would the regulator write that you need to record flights to demonstrate recency if they really wanted you to log each and every flight?

No it isn’t an assumption. It is written that way.

The regulator just sets the conditions of when you need to log flights. As I demonstrated earlier, there are instances where someone doesn’t need to log flights. Explicitly stating who needs to log flights allows people not in those categories not to log anything. Otherwise, would a passenger need to log flights?

Let's assume you are right for a moment, should I log the following flights:

- if I am a licensed PPL, and post PPL I go fly with an instructor because I feel rusty (but I am not legally required to fly dual)
- if I am a licensed PPL and want to learn tailwheel flying
- if I am a licensed PPL, and a friend of mine with a PPL goes flying. I sit in the right seat, he flies and is PIC
- a PPL holder is a passenger on board a commercial airline

If not, could you specify why? If your interpretation is correct, it would imply one would have to log all the above flights.

[photofly]

I don’t see why this is contentious. Log flights for which you are a flight crew member.

[digits_]

I don’t see why this is contentious. Log flights for which you are a flight crew member.

My point is that the regulation doesn't specify that. If you use AuxBatOn's interpretation, and if you hold a license then you have to log every flight. Well, then log every flight you are on board an airplane. It doesn't specify you need to be a crew member. This interpretation opens up a rabbit hole that leads to silly situations. Which only strenghtens my point that this can not be the intended interpretation.

The purpose is to document recency, so yes, logging time as a passenger is ridiculous for that purpose, but so is logging your 4th flight of circuits giving you 30 landings that day. Hence they specify why you are logging the flights. To document recency. Nothing more.

[photofly]

Who are you trying to convince? Me, or you?

[digits_]

Who are you trying to convince? Me, or you?

Usually not a good sign if that question gets asked.

I'm trying to convince AuxBatOn and you that you only need to log the flights necessary to document the recency for the flight you are about to do. Not every flight.

Interpreting the quoted regulations as that you have to log every flight you do, leads to silly conclusions. Therefore I conclude that my interpretation is more likely to be correct, as this does not lead to silly situations. If you do find some, I'd be happy to read them.

[photofly]

Interpreting the quoted regulations as that you have to log every flight you do, leads to silly conclusions.

You’re the one drawing silly conclusions, not I. I honestly have no difficulty following the regulation as I interpret it, which is to log every flight. Really not difficult.

[tuqi]

AuxBatOn, "if you need a logbook, you need to log every flight"

That conclusion cannot validly be drawn from paragraph 2 of 401.08. The paragraph states as:

"A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) ..."

Paragraph 1 only creates an obligation to record flight experience in each of two specific circumstances. Any other flight experience does not need to be recorded in the form prescribed in paragraph 2.

[digits_]

Interpreting the quoted regulations as that you have to log every flight you do, leads to silly conclusions.

You’re the one drawing silly conclusions, not I. I honestly have no difficulty following the regulation as I interpret it, which is to log every flight. Really not difficult.

Could you quote a regulation that differentiates between flights as a flight crew member and flights as a passenger? Why to log one and not the other?

It may seem obvious, but then there should be a reference in the CARs.

It sounds like a silly question, but I would really like to read your reply. It is actually at the core of our discussion.

[photofly]

Why to log one and not the other?

401.08(2)(c)

[digits_]

Why to log one and not the other?

401.08(2)(c)

If that were true, you only need to log flights that have intermediate landings and takeoffs according to 401.08(2)(f). So that can't be it.



401.08 (1) is the one that governs which flights need to be recorded. Only the ones needed for your recency. Flights as a passenger don't affect that, so you don't have to log it. Neither does a second flight of touch and goes of the day.


While you might disagree, do you understand the point I am trying to make?