Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

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jetpilot
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by jetpilot »

My Opinion is for now keep Air Transat seperate give us the AC add on ( insurances and pass) let's talk back in 5 year to see where we are in that way nobody will lost seniority and we let that covid crap go away! i understand that will need a LOU special time need special agrements :)


jet
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Fanblade
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Fanblade »

planebored wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:12 am
Fanblade wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:36 am
planebored wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:32 pm

All furloughed AC pilots continue to accrue company service entitlement for the purposes of seniority. Won't matter either way.
Using the words accrue company service and seniority in the same sentence has me confused.

Your seniority slot is fixed within our seniority list. As people retire, even though you maybe on furlough, your seniority position moves up the list.

However that has nothing to do with “company service”. A furloughed or pilot on leave, temporarily suspends accruing company service. For example a pilot on leave for 2 years. After his/her 30 year career will have 28 years of service.
The way I read it, that is not correct. The only thing you don't continue to accrue is YOS for anything pay related and vacation. Technically that person would get their "30 year anniversary" letter or whatever.
Your initial post seemed to imply that time furloughed can’t impact seniority integration. An arbitrator doesn’t give a rats behind what is in the contract. In fact doesn’t ours say BOTL?

Many past arbitration have applied discounts for furloughed pilots during seniority integration. The Pitcher award placed furloughed AC pilots below regional pilots for one. That triggered the AC pilots leaving CALPA to avoid the merger. One of the Canadian Airlines mergers was entirely done on length of service and not DOH because of furloughs.

Furlough absolutely comes with seniority integration risks.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by Fanblade »

jetpilot wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:17 am My Opinion is for now keep Air Transat seperate give us the AC add on ( insurances and pass) let's talk back in 5 year to see where we are in that way nobody will lost seniority and we let that covid crap go away! i understand that will need a LOU special time need special agrements :)


jet
So you think it’s a good idea for there to be two different pilot groups, competing with each other for work with AC management, for 5 years?

Think about it. It’s probably going on to some extent right now. What do think ACPA will be trying to achieve?

AC management will be in for sure. They would love the two pilot groups competing to get their respective pilots back first.

This is why a representation vote happens first and fast. To stop the two groups from competing. Because I guarantee you they will.

I will give you an example. Have you noticed all RP positions were removed from the AC equipment list two bids ago? Those RP positions were an Achilles Heal for AC pilots when merging with Canadian. Poof all of a sudden they are gone. AC no longer has RP’s. Coincidence? All pandemic related? Maybe.

It is a complete non starter for ACPA and should be for everyone. ACPA’s article 1 language means it can not happen without ACPA .
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

Fanblade wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:51 am
planebored wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:12 am
Fanblade wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:36 am

Using the words accrue company service and seniority in the same sentence has me confused.

Your seniority slot is fixed within our seniority list. As people retire, even though you maybe on furlough, your seniority position moves up the list.

However that has nothing to do with “company service”. A furloughed or pilot on leave, temporarily suspends accruing company service. For example a pilot on leave for 2 years. After his/her 30 year career will have 28 years of service.
The way I read it, that is not correct. The only thing you don't continue to accrue is YOS for anything pay related and vacation. Technically that person would get their "30 year anniversary" letter or whatever.
Your initial post seemed to imply that time furloughed can’t impact seniority integration. An arbitrator doesn’t give a rats behind what is in the contract. In fact doesn’t ours say BOTL?

Many past arbitration have applied discounts for furloughed pilots during seniority integration. The Pitcher award placed furloughed AC pilots below regional pilots for one. That triggered the AC pilots leaving CALPA to avoid the merger. One of the Canadian Airlines mergers was entirely done on length of service and not DOH because of furloughs.

Furlough absolutely comes with seniority integration risks.
Tough to know what an arbitrator will do, but... in our contract LOA and furlough are different regarding accumulating service.

9.01.05.02
A Pilot on furlough continues to accrue Company service except for the purpose of pay progression, pension and vacation entitlement.

8.01.05
A Pilot will retain his seniority date and accrue seniority, but not service, during a LOA.

Also if you extend a furlough by LOA and deferring your recall, your service date cannot be later than any pilot junior to you.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by 98 Corolla »

It probably depends on the type of LOA. For a parental LOA they still might accure service.
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Fanblade
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by Fanblade »

The only thing that will matter is what the arbitrator thinks. He/she won’t care what the contract say while integrating lists.

Repeat. What the contract says means nothing.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by planebored »

Fanblade wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:29 pm The only thing that will matter is what the arbitrator thinks. He/she won’t care what the contract say while integrating lists.

Repeat. What the contract says means nothing.
Tell that to all the AC pilots who think because our contract says BOTL, that it will be BOTL... :roll: :lol:
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by FL320 »

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business ... reasonable

The biggest shareholder in Air Canada and Transat A.T. Inc said on Tuesday that AC’s revised offer for the Canadian tour operator was “a very reasonable one,” given the turmoil in the aviation industry.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Mike1985 »

Fanblade wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:42 am
FL320 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:38 pm
Yeah the lay-off situation is going to make this one a mess! The bottom AC pilots might be YEARS from getting called back if the AT pilots integrate into the list. Gonna be interesting.
On a side note: no pilot is laid off at Transat as we speak, although more than 2/3 are inactive at the moment they are still on the payroll (Transat collects the CEWS) and they will use it as long as they can (june 2021?).
It is great Transat is using CEWS. There are rumours under the new CEWS the AC furloughs might be coming back as well. That would also be great.

But it won’t be fooling an arbitrator one way or the other. CEWS is simply EI for a pandemic. It is trying to keep people on payroll who are not actually required. Anyone on EI, CEWS or even still employed but showing surplus is in the same boat.

We have just under 800 on EI/surplus. How many does Transat have on EI, CEWS or showing surplus?

How an arbitrator factors in the “pandemic” to seniority integration is anyone’s guess. It’s now a wild card.

We are all far better off skipping the arbitrator and figuring this out ourselves.
Whats the source of the rumour that AC is considering the new CEWS for the furloughed pilots?
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200Above
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by 200Above »

I'd also like to know the source. First I've heard of it. Rotten luck to be the only group without CEWS.

Edit to add.... The fact that we are getting information regarding pension buy backs today, tells me AC has no plan of putting us back on CEWS (in other words, having equal pension contributions) Hope I'm wrong.
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Last edited by 200Above on Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
milhouse
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by milhouse »

altiplano wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:44 am
TFTMB heavy wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:53 am
altiplano wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:40 am $5.

Transat shareholders are taking a haircut here... AC shareholders too if they fill the shares for the share swap options. The big AT shareholders like Letko didn't like $14 before and it will be interesting to see how they vote this... Letko has significant AC pairings too though and fear is clearly in the drivers seat, I'll be interested to hear what the Transat CEO recommendation states. Plenty of fear that AT is going to flop if the deal doesn't go ahead no doubt. he just wants to walk at this point. Probably will get an AC BOD appointment for himself out of it.

Rovinescu is a shark.
JME is in favour, he told me himself in an email.
Of course he is, and I read his statement in the press release, I'm just wondering what else he will tell the shareholders that were holding out for $18?
Sharklasers wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:51 am Letko is all but completely divested from TRZ and has been for months. Friday at the bell they owned 203000 shares of TRZ or about .54% of the total outstanding shares.
https://www.morningstar.ca/ca/report/st ... 0P00005TH4
Noted. Who are the largest share holders presently?
I have no idea why Morningstar doesn't show Letkos shares but they are still the largest shareholder. They spoke about it on the radio today. Here is an article about it as well.

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business- ... reasonable

Vincent Chiara (head of Mach) also stated today that he no longer has any interest in buying TRZ.
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dhc2pilot
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by dhc2pilot »

From Calin today during town hall on Air Transat acquisition.... "Our agreement with Transat protects our employees by requiring them to shrink their workforce in the same way we have reduced ours..."
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by FL320 »

dhc2pilot wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:40 pm From Calin today during town hall on Air Transat acquisition.... "Our agreement with Transat protects our employees by requiring them to shrink their workforce in the same way we have reduced ours..."
Fair and understandable.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by FL-280 »

I went through the whole AC / Canadian merger, the famous Keller list. The reality is, air transat pilots will have to give up a certain amount of seniority. The questin is... how much? These two mergers have quite a bit in comon. I don't think applying a straight penalty will be the way to go, a ratio and groups will be applied.

Hell, here is my crack at it. With about 4250 AC pilots after ERIP and 650 AT pilots

Group 1 - Senior AC pilots / First 600 - Untouched

Group 2 - Senior Transat Pilots with the core of AC pilots (Ts Sen 1-200 Ac Sen 601 to approx 2200) List zipped at 11 AC to 1 TS Ratio

Group 3 - Pre Pml and PML 1 AC Pilots (2200 - 3100) - Transat Core (200-430) - Zipped in at approx 4 AC pilot to 1 TS pilot ratio

Group 4 - PML 2 and 2.5 AC Pilots (3100 to approx 4250) - Transat Hiring Boom Pilots (430 to approx 650). --- Transat pilots are tapped bottom of the list in their order of seniority.

Fire away, but I tried doing this with no emotions just what I think would be fair. Like it or not if you look at the Keller list, this is about what is going to end up happening.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by planebored »

FL-280 wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:35 pm I went through the whole AC / Canadian merger, the famous Keller list. The reality is, air transat pilots will have to give up a certain amount of seniority. The questin is... how much? These two mergers have quite a bit in comon. I don't think applying a straight penalty will be the way to go, a ratio and groups will be applied.

Hell, here is my crack at it. With about 4250 AC pilots after ERIP and 650 AT pilots

Group 1 - Senior AC pilots / First 600 - Untouched

Group 2 - Senior Transat Pilots with the core of AC pilots (Ts Sen 1-200 Ac Sen 601 to approx 2200) List zipped at 11 AC to 1 TS Ratio

Group 3 - Pre Pml and PML 1 AC Pilots (2200 - 3100) - Transat Core (200-430) - Zipped in at approx 4 AC pilot to 1 TS pilot ratio

Group 4 - PML 2 and 2.5 AC Pilots (3100 to approx 4250) - Transat Hiring Boom Pilots (430 to approx 650). --- Transat pilots are tapped bottom of the list in their order of seniority.

Fire away, but I tried doing this with no emotions just what I think would be fair. Like it or not if you look at the Keller list, this is about what is going to end up happening.
I can get behind this.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by milhouse »

FL-280 wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:35 pm I went through the whole AC / Canadian merger, the famous Keller list. The reality is, air transat pilots will have to give up a certain amount of seniority. The questin is... how much? These two mergers have quite a bit in comon. I don't think applying a straight penalty will be the way to go, a ratio and groups will be applied.

Hell, here is my crack at it. With about 4250 AC pilots after ERIP and 650 AT pilots

Group 1 - Senior AC pilots / First 600 - Untouched

Group 2 - Senior Transat Pilots with the core of AC pilots (Ts Sen 1-200 Ac Sen 601 to approx 2200) List zipped at 11 AC to 1 TS Ratio

Group 3 - Pre Pml and PML 1 AC Pilots (2200 - 3100) - Transat Core (200-430) - Zipped in at approx 4 AC pilot to 1 TS pilot ratio

Group 4 - PML 2 and 2.5 AC Pilots (3100 to approx 4250) - Transat Hiring Boom Pilots (430 to approx 650). --- Transat pilots are tapped bottom of the list in their order of seniority.

Fire away, but I tried doing this with no emotions just what I think would be fair. Like it or not if you look at the Keller list, this is about what is going to end up happening.
The Keller list did not put the bottom 30% of canadian pilots BOTL. I realize you must be really junior but better to temper your expetations now.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by FL-280 »

Only about 10%-12% in the Keller list, the 1997 hires and later.... 160 out of approx 1150

If you dont think time spent in the regional market, be it Jazz, sky or Georgian won't have a certain weight in the artibrator's decision, you are out to lunch. Time in the regional effects almost 2 000 pilots at AC.

If I was a 2016 hire at TS, I would be happy to get tapped Bottom of the list at AC. The guaranteed career at AC is worth the 4 year hit. The other alternative was TS goes under or significantly reduces its size for a very long time. Either way, a 2016 or later hire was probably going to apply at AC anyway. In fact, I wonder how many resume's we had on file before the deal was initially announced.

Everyone will be taking a hit here, and I mean everyone. If you can't give up a few years of seniority and be happy with that you don't realise how much an AC pilot is losing in this acquisition. It's pretty clear, you are bringing less work and tails than you are bringing pilots.

We shouldn't talk about a Transat list percentage, the pilot group is so small that it's really irrelevant. 30% is only 225 pilots, meh! Transat pilot group is 1/3 rd the size of the total AC express group. Think of that for a second.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by milhouse »

FL-280 wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:54 pm Only about 10%-12% in the Keller list, the 1997 hires and later.... 160 out of approx 1150

If you dont think time spent in the regional market, be it Jazz, sky or Georgian won't have a certain weight in the artibrator's decision, you are out to lunch. Time in the regional effects almost 2 000 pilots at AC.

If I was a 2016 hire at TS, I would be happy to get tapped Bottom of the list at AC. The guaranteed career at AC is worth the 4 year hit. The other alternative was TS goes under or significantly reduces its size for a very long time. Either way, a 2016 or later hire was probably going to apply at AC anyway. In fact, I wonder how many resume's we had on file before the deal was initially announced.

Everyone will be taking a hit here, and I mean everyone. If you can't give up a few years of seniority and be happy with that you don't realise how much an AC pilot is losing in this acquisition. It's pretty clear, you are bringing less work and tails than you are bringing pilots.

We shouldn't talk about a Transat list percentage, the pilot group is so small that it's really irrelevant. 30% is only 225 pilots, meh! Transat pilot group is 1/3 rd the size of the total AC express group. Think of that for a second.
Lol you don't have to convince me. I'm just pointing out that your claim that you're going off the Keller list is a bit off, in a a way that reveals quite blatantly where you sit on the list.
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Last edited by milhouse on Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by FL-280 »

Well, I believe that list will have to adapted to our current realities. What the hell do I know, im just pilot! I was giving it a shot, dont blame me for it. Its better than all the bitching that goes on here
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columbia
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Updated Purchase Price at $5 per share

Post by columbia »

FL-280 wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:35 pm I went through the whole AC / Canadian merger, the famous Keller list. The reality is, air transat pilots will have to give up a certain amount of seniority. The questin is... how much? These two mergers have quite a bit in comon. I don't think applying a straight penalty will be the way to go, a ratio and groups will be applied.

Hell, here is my crack at it. With about 4250 AC pilots after ERIP and 650 AT pilots

Group 1 - Senior AC pilots / First 600 - Untouched

Group 2 - Senior Transat Pilots with the core of AC pilots (Ts Sen 1-200 Ac Sen 601 to approx 2200) List zipped at 11 AC to 1 TS Ratio

Group 3 - Pre Pml and PML 1 AC Pilots (2200 - 3100) - Transat Core (200-430) - Zipped in at approx 4 AC pilot to 1 TS pilot ratio

Group 4 - PML 2 and 2.5 AC Pilots (3100 to approx 4250) - Transat Hiring Boom Pilots (430 to approx 650). --- Transat pilots are tapped bottom of the list in their order of seniority.

Fire away, but I tried doing this with no emotions just what I think would be fair. Like it or not if you look at the Keller list, this is about what is going to end up happening.
I don’t think you read the report right. The remaining pilots hired before October 17th 2000 (Category 6) was integrated by straight ratio.
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