Steep Turns At Low Altitude

[PilotDAR]

By now I know you envision a utopian aviation forum where no aviation accidents are discussed and everyone just magically get along.

I envision an exchange in courtesy between pilots with a mature attitude toward a discussion. Discussing accidents has merit. Overwhelming participants less so. After you've spent a few years recovering from one, you'll understand more...

It's true, it disinterests me to go to a "place" where people are needlessly disrespectful to each other. There are several posters in this thread who seem to have stepped over the line, I would not want to be in a room where such a discussion were going on...

[PilotDAR]

As this is a flight training forum, and a presumably low time pilot asked a reasonable question, how would those if us who are experienced pilots want to be thought of based upon our response to the question? Testy? Impatient? Horrible instructors, with no sense of mentoring? What a poor impression to leave the OP.

'Just as I would be simply embarrassed to be an experienced pilot in the club house, listening to a bunch of other pilots arguing with each other. Does anonymity open the flood gates of say whatever you want!?!

Mr./Ms. Challenger Nami, You are not aware of the experience of other posters here, the attitude you present is not making up for this lack of awareness on your part. I try to read the room before I say too much - so I'm not saying much here....

[photofly]

As this is a flight training forum, and a presumably low time pilot asked a reasonable question, how would those if us who are experienced pilots want to be thought of based upon our response to the question? Testy? Impatient?

You could add: passionate, committed, interested, involved, motivated, thoughtful, widely-read and sourced - it isn't all bad!

[challenger_nami]

Obviously, HEAD ON means straight ahead on the nose. But the concept I described covers anything from the arc forward of the left wing covering all the way to the right wing.

If you are overtaking n aircraft from behind, that aircraft won’t see you. It will be your responsibility to deviate to the left.

Is that a typo? Overtaking traffic has to overtake on the right.

No typo on my part.

Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

Do you have energy and stamina and time .... or you don’t have anything better to do with your time.
you seem to be in denial, and I will leave you at that this evening.

Cheers

[photofly]

If you are overtaking n aircraft from behind, that aircraft won’t see you. It will be your responsibility to deviate to the left.
.
.
Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

If you're overtaking, how can you both "deviate to the left" and "alter course to the right" at the same time?

[challenger_nami]

As this is a flight training forum, and a presumably low time pilot asked a reasonable question, how would those if us who are experienced pilots want to be thought of based upon our response to the question? Testy? Impatient? Horrible instructors, with no sense of mentoring? What a poor impression to leave the OP.

'Just as I would be simply embarrassed to be an experienced pilot in the club house, listening to a bunch of other pilots arguing with each other. Does anonymity open the flood gates of say whatever you want!?!

Mr./Ms. Challenger Nami, You are not aware of the experience of other posters here, the attitude you present is not making up for this lack of awareness on your part. I try to read the room before I say too much - so I'm not saying much here....

As this is a flight training forum, and a presumably low time pilot asked a reasonable question, how would those if us who are experienced pilots want to be thought of based upon our response to the question? Testy? Impatient? Horrible instructors, with no sense of mentoring? What a poor impression to leave the OP.

Why are you directing that at me. What did I say that gave you that impression?

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Holy shit. (OP here)

It was not my intention to start a flamewar here.

This thread has confused two issues - which is likely my fault. The original question was about steep turns at low altitude, which for the purposes of my question, is anything steeper than 30° if I must put a number on it.

It became conflated with slipping turns from base to final for three reasons:
1) I have theorized that my trepidation with steep turns at circuit height stems from a close call incipient spin turning base to final a long time ago that could have killed me.
2) In more recent training, while practicing a no-flap landing, my instructor advised me to use full rudder in a slipping turn to final. A full rudder slipping turn can be considered to be a steep turn I think. I think that decision has shone a light on a weakness of mine I need to overcome.
3) My failure to understand the source of my ignorance/fear/confusion/whatever-you-call-it has prevented me from stating the question succinctly.

The intended result of my question was to find advice in overcoming this fear, as I recognize it to be irrational (although, that seems to be up for debate still), assuming proper control of the aircraft and a correctly executed turn. For that part, I would say, weeding through the hubris, there has been a lot of good advice here. It was not my intention to question the wisdom of teaching the maneuver, nor to debate where and when it would be appropriate; it's part of the flight training regimen, and that's good enough for me.

I would suggest that any comments not addressing the original question are better saved for another thread.

[challenger_nami]

If you are overtaking n aircraft from behind, that aircraft won’t see you. It will be your responsibility to deviate to the left.
.
.
Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

If you're overtaking, how can you both "deviate to the left" and "alter course to the right" at the same time?

Photofly ... can I just address you as FLY???! (Kidding)

I am losing hope here .... if you are the one overtaking, you ...and ONLY you deviates RIGHT. the airplane being overtaken most likely won’t see and, and hence does not have to do anything.

No one deviates to the left here.

For the sake of aviation safety, please set your ego aside and educate yourself. Maybe things changed in aviation since 1945 when you got your PPL.
but do yourself a favour, and educate yourself.

[Pilotdaddy]

If you are overtaking n aircraft from behind, that aircraft won’t see you. It will be your responsibility to deviate to the left.
.
.
Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

If you're overtaking, how can you both "deviate to the left" and "alter course to the right" at the same time?

I am losing hope here .... if you are the one overtaking, you ...and ONLY you deviates RIGHT. the airplane being overtaken most likely won’t see and, and hence does not have to do anything.

Slight misunderstanding here... when PF says "both", I think he meant that the overtaking aircraft cannot both deviate to the left AND to the right at the same time. I think you misunderstood this as him saying that the overtaking aircraft and the aircraft being overtaken is what he was referring to by "both".

You did mention on your quote above.... "If you are overtaking n aircraft from behind, that aircraft won’t see you. It will be your responsibility to deviate to the left" Is that not a typo?

[challenger_nami]

If you're overtaking, how can you both "deviate to the left" and "alter course to the right" at the same time?

I am losing hope here .... if you are the one overtaking, you ...and ONLY you deviates RIGHT. the airplane being overtaken most likely won’t see and, and hence does not have to do anything.

Slight misunderstanding here... when PF says "both", he meant that the overtaking aircraft cannot both deviate to the left AND to the right at the same time. I think you misunderstood this as him saying that the overtaking aircraft and the aircraft being overtaken is what he was referring to by "both".

You did mention on your quote above.... "If you are overtaking n aircraft from behind, that aircraft won’t see you. It will be your responsibility to deviate to the left" Is that not a typo?

Yeah. I did not see that instance of word “left” My apologies. That “Left” is a typo. It is indeed a deviation to the “Right”, and only to the right by the overtaking aircraft.

[photofly]

No one deviates to the left here.

Right. So why did you say "If you are overtaking n aircraft from behind, that aircraft won’t see you. It will be your responsibility to deviate to the left."

I know you know perfectly well what to do, but if that's not a typo, then I don't understand you.

[photofly]

No worries.

[challenger_nami]

No one deviates to the left here.

Right. So why did you say "If you are overtaking n aircraft from behind, that aircraft won’t see you. It will be your responsibility to deviate to the left."

I know you know perfectly well what to do, but if that's not a typo, then I don't understand you.

[Castorero]

edit

[photofly]

Holy shit. (OP here)
A full rudder slipping turn can be considered to be a steep turn I think.

Transport Canada has a stiffie for artificially classifying (coordinated) turns as gentle, medium and steep, with the two dividing lines at 15° and 30° of bank. I've never considered a slipping turn to fit into this classification, but I'm not surprised that various people have interpreted the words "steep turns at low altitude" in different ways.

I don't think there's a lot of use for deliberate (level fight, 45° bank) steep turns at low altitude, unless you're trying to demonstrate something in particular (illusions caused by drift comes to mind.) I think the whole collision avoidance theme is a huge red herring.

On the other hand, slipping turns can be useful in the circuit: solo pilots should work to get used to them, for working forced approach scenarios, engine failure scenarios in a circuit, and general flexibility of manoeuvring. Be prepared to use up to and including full rudder deflection and use bank to achieve the ground track you require. Learn and achieve an appropriate pitch attitude to maintain adequate airspeed. None of this is novel; all of this is in the Flight Training Manual and Flight Instructor Guide.

[challenger_nami]

Unfortunately from time to time, some complete idiot with a personality disorder shows up, who likely has never been at the controls of a real airplane, and starts arguing with real pilots about everything .

It is hard sometimes not to take the bait and join in just for the fun of it. We all get bored "on a slow day".

From my corner, it is getting tiresome and unproductive to say the least. It is high time that Pope Alexander convened a New Tribunal and ordered a train load of firewood for the Piazza.

I, for one, look forward to it.

You sure picked the Nicest way to inflate your own ego at the same time portraying yourself as a holy man.

But did you actually count float flying as real flying and yourself as a real pilot?




.

[rookiepilot]

Holy shit. (OP here)

It was not my intention to start a flamewar here.

This thread has confused two issues - which is likely my fault. The original question was about steep turns at low altitude, which for the purposes of my question, is anything steeper than 30° if I must put a number on it.

It became conflated with slipping turns from base to final for three reasons:
1) I have theorized that my trepidation with steep turns at circuit height stems from a close call incipient spin turning base to final a long time ago that could have killed me.
2) In more recent training, while practicing a no-flap landing, my instructor advised me to use full rudder in a slipping turn to final. A full rudder slipping turn can be considered to be a steep turn I think. I think that decision has shone a light on a weakness of mine I need to overcome.
3) My failure to understand the source of my ignorance/fear/confusion/whatever-you-call-it has prevented me from stating the question succinctly.

The intended result of my question was to find advice in overcoming this fear, as I recognize it to be irrational (although, that seems to be up for debate still), assuming proper control of the aircraft and a correctly executed turn. For that part, I would say, weeding through the hubris, there has been a lot of good advice here. It was not my intention to question the wisdom of teaching the maneuver, nor to debate where and when it would be appropriate; it's part of the flight training regimen, and that's good enough for me.

I would suggest that any comments not addressing the original question are better saved for another thread.

RedAndWhiteBaron
Dont let this fracas deter you, There is a lot of good people here that know what they are about and are happy to share their knowledge in a helpful manner.
I am sure you can tell who they are.

Stick around.

Unfortunately from time to time, some complete idiot with a personality disorder shows up, who likely has never been at the controls of a real airplane, and starts arguing with real pilots about everything .

It is hard sometimes not to take the bait and join in just for the fun of it. We all get bored "on a slow day".

From my corner, it is getting tiresome and unproductive to say the least. It is high time that Pope Alexander convened a New Tribunal and ordered a train load of firewood for the Piazza.

I, for one, look forward to it.

Absolutely, stick around.
I think the OP raised an important thread, that solely due to accidents that have happened --- almost always fatal -- is vital for every pilot.

Like PilotDar, I've had a (mechanical failure in my case) accident, and it took a long time physically, mentally and emotionally to recover. I don't want to see what happened to me, or worse, happen to anyone. People's lives and families are far too important.

Most people here have been supportive, and they have helped me move forward. One has taken joy in claiming without a shred of evidence I love to wreck airplanes. Online predators with a terrible and sad existence exist, taking their anger out on others for pleasure.

Don't let them wreck your experience.
And here is the challenge to the mods:
When personal attacks start to dominate, holidays are a good idea.
There should be absolutely zero tolerance for attacks on a pilots character or personal life. Ever.

As Dar rightly says, this in particular is a learning forum. People should never be mocked for learning.

[Castorero]

edit

[challenger_nami]

Unfortunately from time to time, some complete idiot with a personality disorder shows up, who likely has never been at the controls of a real airplane, and starts arguing with real pilots about everything .

It is hard sometimes not to take the bait and join in just for the fun of it. We all get bored "on a slow day".

From my corner, it is getting tiresome and unproductive to say the least. It is high time that Pope Alexander convened a New Tribunal and ordered a train load of firewood for the Piazza.

I, for one, look forward to it.

You sure picked a Nice way to inflate your own ego. But did you actually count float flying as real flying and yourself as a real pilot?

Sadly, there is nothing to inflate here, Nami .
You have provided enough hot air in these here parts to lift the Hindenburg.
Give it a rest, son, and if that isn't possible, there are some medications I can suggest...


.

Father, what you ask me is not possible.

And I don’t take meds. so You take them for me, and I trust they work like Magic. Sounds like you enjoy a good medication here and there, as evident by the way you talk/write weird.

Plus, if you accuse me of having a personality disorder, you must prove that with reason. If you don’t, then you are no different than the wicked, and thereby you will be damned, father.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

RedAndWhiteBaron
Dont let this fracas deter you, There is a lot of good people here that know what they are about and are happy to share their knowledge in a helpful manner.
I am sure you can tell who they are.

Stick around.

Unfortunately from time to time, some complete idiot with a personality disorder shows up, who likely has never been at the controls of a real airplane, and starts arguing with real pilots about everything .

It is hard sometimes not to take the bait and join in just for the fun of it. We all get bored "on a slow day".

From my corner, it is getting tiresome and unproductive to say the least. It is high time that Pope Alexander convened a New Tribunal and ordered a train load of firewood for the Piazza.

I, for one, look forward to it.

Absolutely, stick around.
I think the OP raised an important thread, that solely due to accidents that have happened --- almost always fatal -- is vital for every pilot.

Like PilotDar, I've had a (mechanical failure in my case) accident, and it took a long time physically, mentally and emotionally to recover. I don't want to see what happened to me, or worse, happen to anyone. People's lives and families are far too important.

Most people here have been supportive, and they have helped me move forward. One has taken joy in claiming without a shred of evidence I love to wreck airplanes. Online predators with a terrible and sad existence exist, taking their anger out on others for pleasure.

Don't let them wreck your experience.
And here is the challenge to the mods:
When personal attacks start to dominate, holidays are a good idea.
There should be absolutely zero tolerance for attacks on a pilots character or personal life. Ever.

As Dar rightly says, this in particular is a learning forum. People should never be mocked for learning.

Oh, I wouldn't worry about how thick my skin is. I've been working I.T. for 20 years. I was on the Internet before most people knew it existed, and the people you find on it haven't changed. The most lively and interesting forums are indeed the ones where the occasional personal attack get hurled and the odd flamewar happens. I may be guilty of helping that along at times myself here. When it gets too personal, I've learned to turn the other cheek, speak eloquently, and rise above. Like in all things, don't feed the trolls.

I have flameproof suits bronzed, hanging in the garage like trophies. You can find the same suits sold in "vintage" stores now

[Castorero]

.

[challenger_nami]

Father, what you ask is not possible.
And I don’t take meds. so You take them for me, and I trust they work like Magic. Sounds like you enjoy a good medication here and there.

Plus, if you think you are right and I am the one who is wrong, prove me wrong with reason and logic beyond talking weird, father.

Nami... Filium meum :

Te Benedicto, Te Benedicto, Te Benedicto, In Nomine Patriis, et Filius, et Spiritus Sanctus, Amen.

Dominus Vobiscum

Father, you are taking this weird talk to a whole new level.

Oh wait, what’s that smoke .... WHY AM I CATCHING FIRE ..,..why am I being taken by demons ..... HELP, HELP, HELP FATHER



Seriously, get real man.
Don’t be an idiot with a personality disorder.


.

[the-minister31]

Holy shit. (OP here)
A full rudder slipping turn can be considered to be a steep turn I think.

Transport Canada has a stiffie for artificially classifying (coordinated) turns as gentle, medium and steep, with the two dividing lines at 15° and 30° of bank. I've never considered a slipping turn to fit into this classification, but I'm not surprised that various people have interpreted the words "steep turns at low altitude" in different ways.

I don't think there's a lot of use for deliberate (level fight, 45° bank) steep turns at low altitude, unless you're trying to demonstrate something in particular (illusions caused by drift comes to mind.) I think the whole collision avoidance theme is a huge red herring.

On the other hand, slipping turns can be useful in the circuit: solo pilots should work to get used to them, for working forced approach scenarios, engine failure scenarios in a circuit, and general flexibility of manoeuvring. Be prepared to use up to and including full rudder deflection and use bank to achieve the ground track you require. Learn and achieve an appropriate pitch attitude to maintain adequate airspeed. None of this is novel; all of this is in the Flight Training Manual and Flight Instructor Guide.

Even though we disagreed earlier on the potential danger of a slip, I have to say, that was the best comment in this thread to this point in my opinion.

Here is my take on the OP's initial question. I know some won't agree on some points but it is a peraonnal opinion based on my experience.

OP : Your fear of low level slips is normal in my opinion. There is definitely a higher level of risk doing these manoeuvres at low altitude, because there is no room to recover. You should be careful to avoid a stall at all costs. You more than anyone would be well placed to talk about the dangers of an uncoordinated stall at low level.

It does not mean you shouldn't practice such exercices.
Increased risk just means you have to be more careful. I would guess that you know way more now than when you spun that glider years ago. Keep the nose down, get out of the slip if you are uncomfortable. Don't try something you haven't already practiced with your instructor. Keep the nose down!

From my experience, a slipping turn is not considered a steep turn. It is a volountary uncoordinated turn.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Holy shit. (OP here)
A full rudder slipping turn can be considered to be a steep turn I think.

Transport Canada has a stiffie for artificially classifying (coordinated) turns as gentle, medium and steep, with the two dividing lines at 15° and 30° of bank. I've never considered a slipping turn to fit into this classification, but I'm not surprised that various people have interpreted the words "steep turns at low altitude" in different ways.

I don't think there's a lot of use for deliberate (level fight, 45° bank) steep turns at low altitude, unless you're trying to demonstrate something in particular (illusions caused by drift comes to mind.) I think the whole collision avoidance theme is a huge red herring.

On the other hand, slipping turns can be useful in the circuit: solo pilots should work to get used to them, for working forced approach scenarios, engine failure scenarios in a circuit, and general flexibility of manoeuvring. Be prepared to use up to and including full rudder deflection and use bank to achieve the ground track you require. Learn and achieve an appropriate pitch attitude to maintain adequate airspeed. None of this is novel; all of this is in the Flight Training Manual and Flight Instructor Guide.

Even though we disagreed earlier on the potential danger of a slip, I have to say, that was the best comment in this thread to this point in my opinion.

Here is my take on the OP's initial question. I know some won't agree on some points but it is a peraonnal opinion based on my experience.

OP : Your fear of low level slips is normal in my opinion. There is definitely a higher level of risk doing these manoeuvres at low altitude, because there is no room to recover. You should be careful to avoid a stall at all costs. You more than anyone would be well placed to talk about the dangers of an uncoordinated stall at low level.

It does not mean you shouldn't practice such exercices.
Increased risk just means you have to be more careful. I would guess that you know way more now than when you spun that glider years ago. Keep the nose down, get out of the slip if you are uncomfortable. Don't try something you haven't already practiced with your instructor. Keep the nose down!

From my experience, a slipping turn is not considered a steep turn. It is a volountary uncoordinated turn.

I'll cede on the definition... the point was that low level slips and steep turns look and feel quite similar, in terms of how banked you are.

[PilotDAR]

a slipping turn is not considered a steep turn. It is a voluntary uncoordinated turn.

I like that description. Many years ago, at the request of one of the members who has been participating in this discussion (and at the cost of a little tire rubber) I did demonstrate a final approach and landing in my 150 with full rudder applied all the way until the first mainwheel contacted, then straighten out. It was unusual, but not worrisome. As I did flare for the landing, I did approach the stall in this configuration without loosing control of the plane.

because there is no room to recover. You should be careful to avoid a stall at all costs.

Bear in mind that if you're controlling a slip, it is instantly recoverable, that's why I like it for drag modulation for precise approach path control. Flaps, once extended cannot be safely and effectively moderated for approach path control, a slip can.

Stalling while slipped is less good, but recoverable. While flight testing a modified Cessna Grand Caravan last year, I was required to demonstrate stalls to the break with 75% power, 30 bank each way, and slipping to one ball out (which I found is about full pedal). There was a wing drop at the point of the stall, but it was manageable in recovery. Yes, I used more altitude to recover than a coordinated stall would have taken, but not a lot more, it was not a spin.

It is wise to practice this up high, and you'll get more comfortable. Prior to wing flaps being common on GA planes, the slip was a primary technique for approach path control, no reason to give it up! I would agree that there are airplane types which would bite more if handled this way, which is why familiarization on new types you're going to fly is always a good idea...