Air Canada is in bad shape

[spinaxis]

Does anyone pay tax on their ‘passes’ these days?
I’ve had that “what’s an empty seat worth once the main entry door is closed” discussion lots over the years.
If it’s taxed it’s worth something of value.
No staff or interline traveller “needs” to travel. If there is, (like bereavement) there’s a remedy for that.
Deadhead or positioning not the same.
Desperate times. Desperate measures.
BTW, I’m sure if I ran an airline I’d have run it into the ground years ago.

Gino

[AuxBatOn]

The flip side of if an empty seat has value and flies empty it's a deductible loss. CRA doesn't want to open that up.

That is not a valid argument. Paid parking lots around the country have vacant places all the time and yet, parking provided by your employer is a taxable benefit and an empty parking space is not a deductible loss.

[altiplano]

The flip side of if an empty seat has value and flies empty it's a deductible loss. CRA doesn't want to open that up.

That is not a valid argument. Paid parking lots around the country have vacant places all the time and yet, parking provided by your employer is a taxable benefit and an empty parking space is not a deductible loss.

It is a valid argument because it is the way it is.

Empty parking lots with spots for sale don't get to claim a loss.

Vacant hotel rooms, unoccupied rental properties, unrented cars, none of them get to claim a loss.

The feds have tried to put it as a taxable benefit, but they can't rectify the flip side of it. They can't have it both ways.

[AuxBatOn]

The flip side of if an empty seat has value and flies empty it's a deductible loss. CRA doesn't want to open that up.

That is not a valid argument. Paid parking lots around the country have vacant places all the time and yet, parking provided by your employer is a taxable benefit and an empty parking space is not a deductible loss.

It is a valid argument because it is the way it is.

Empty parking lots with spots for sale don't get to claim a loss.

Vacant hotel rooms, unoccupied rental properties, unrented cars, none of them get to claim a loss.

The feds have tried to put it as a taxable benefit, but they can't rectify the flip side of it. They can't have it both ways.

Sure, my argument is that free or reduced cost travel should most definitely be a taxable benefit if parking is. Your argument is that CRA doesn’t want to open up the “flip” side, which doesn’t actually exist.

[altiplano]

That is not a valid argument. Paid parking lots around the country have vacant places all the time and yet, parking provided by your employer is a taxable benefit and an empty parking space is not a deductible loss.

It is a valid argument because it is the way it is.

Empty parking lots with spots for sale don't get to claim a loss.

Vacant hotel rooms, unoccupied rental properties, unrented cars, none of them get to claim a loss.

The feds have tried to put it as a taxable benefit, but they can't rectify the flip side of it. They can't have it both ways.

Sure, my argument is that free or reduced cost travel should most definitely be a taxable benefit if parking is. Your argument is that CRA doesn’t want to open up the “flip” side, which doesn’t actually exist.

My argument does exist because that's the way it is... But here's another angle on it...

Scramble parking for employees isn't a taxable benefit.

Parking on employer owned land isn't a taxable benefit.

Employee discounts at retail stores and staff meals at restaurants aren't taxable benefits either.

If employee travel was confirmed I might agree, but I've been left at the gate, had to change or cancel my plans, go back to the hotel, buy a confirmed last minute ticket, etc. etc...

I guess it's the typical Canadian attitude though. "I don't have that so it's not fair, they should be taxed." Lots of resentment for what other people have out there ..

[Gino Under]

Parking lots???
Put an average 10 nonrevs on any flight. That’s weight. Therefore a sip more of fuel over the limited number of flights currently operating while losing $2 billion per quarter is still an expense. Dealing with your booking is an expense. Checking through security, an expense, dealing with a CSR at the gate, and during your flight, what about the packet of dry snacks, that coffee, they’re all expenses that add up and the airline is losing billions per quarter and this discussion is now about parking lots?? Seriously?
I have to wonder if the cabin groomers know which unused seat they don’t need to clean after a flight or series of flights? Any lack of efficiency is an expense when it’s not respected.
Nonrevs are an expense not needed at present.

You have to get right down in the weeds and pinch the pennies. Desperate times. Desperate measures folks. $2 billion per quarter.

How about no one should be paying tax on any pandemic relief (CEWS and EI) related to all this industry devastation? Paying tax on a taxpayer relief program just seems nuts to me. But, there you go.

Gino, Ret.

[rookiepilot]

This thread -- right after a game - changer has been announced! (Actually 2 game changers)
LONG AC!

(Remember I'm an idiot without a degree)

[AuxBatOn]

There are mechanisms in place to claim losses (for both a parking operation and an airline) but my point is that it is not based on individual seats or parking being empty. It is based on net operating losses, on a yearly basis. Having empty seats may lead to NOL, however, you if at the end of a year and airline made more than it spent, it can’t claim losses, regardless of how many seats flew empty. Same for a parking operations.

Free/reduced cost parking is however a taxable benefit for an employee. Free/reduced cost flights are by the same logic taxable benefits. In fact, there is a very informative website that defines different types of taxable benefits here: https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency ... 063_132847

There is a section on aircraft and parking. Both are taxable benefits (and for parking, even an employer-owned parking is considered taxable benefit).

You may disagree (and I am not particularly fond of these rules) but it is the law.

[altiplano]

There are mechanisms in place to claim losses (for both a parking operation and an airline) but my point is that it is not based on individual seats or parking being empty. It is based on net operating losses, on a yearly basis. Having empty seats may lead to NOL, however, you if at the end of a year and airline made more than it spent, it can’t claim losses, regardless of how many seats flew empty. Same for a parking operations.

Free/reduced cost parking is however a taxable benefit for an employee. Free/reduced cost flights are by the same logic taxable benefits. In fact, there is a very informative website that defines different types of taxable benefits here: https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency ... 063_132847

There is a section on aircraft and parking. Both are taxable benefits (and for parking, even an employer-owned parking is considered taxable benefit).

You may disagree (and I am not particularly fond of these rules) but it is the law.

You're ignoring or not understanding the difference though. It either has value or it doesn't, CRA can't have it both ways.

Also, as I said employee parking is not always a taxable benefit, again "scramble parking" or parking on employer property. Also apparently CBSA at YYZ... but that's another story.

Parking lots???
Put an average 10 nonrevs on any flight. That’s weight. Therefore a sip more of fuel over the limited number of flights currently operating while losing $2 billion per quarter is still an expense. Dealing with your booking is an expense. Checking through security, an expense, dealing with a CSR at the gate, and during your flight, what about the packet of dry snacks, that coffee, they’re all expenses that add up and the airline is losing billions per quarter and this discussion is now about parking lots?? Seriously?
I have to wonder if the cabin groomers know which unused seat they don’t need to clean after a flight or series of flights? Any lack of efficiency is an expense when it’s not respected.
Nonrevs are an expense not needed at present.

You have to get right down in the weeds and pinch the pennies. Desperate times. Desperate measures folks. $2 billion per quarter.

How about no one should be paying tax on any pandemic relief (CEWS and EI) related to all this industry devastation? Paying tax on a taxpayer relief program just seems nuts to me. But, there you go.

Gino, Ret.

There is nowhere near 10 cons average per flight. The cost of non-rev travel is a rounding error, not even, nobody deals with your booking, it's all automated, you still pay the AIFs and security fees, and the airline keeps a portion of that for collecting it... on top of that there is a direct benefit to the airline in keeping it's people happy. Besides, pretty much only non-revs today are commuters... that benefits the airline also because people need to get to work.

[AuxBatOn]

You're ignoring or not understanding the difference though. It either has value or it doesn't, CRA can't have it both ways.

Also, as I said employee parking is not always a taxable benefit, again "scramble parking" or parking on employer property. Also apparently CBSA at YYZ... but that's another story.

I fully understand and per my last post, I explained how that value is assesses for a taxable benefit vs assessing a net operating loss.

As far as parking goes, employer-owned parking lots are indeed taxable benefits (“Employer-provided parking is usually a taxable benefit for an employee, whether or not the employer owns the lot.”) Also, I would go read the definition of scramble parking on the link I sent you. If the employer provides enough parking on a daily basis, it is no scramble parking, even if there is no assigned parking spots (“If you provide enough parking spaces for all employees who want parking, but do not assign the parking spaces to individual employees, this is not scramble parking. You must add the benefit to the employee’s remuneration.“). If 20 people physically go to work per day and all 20 want parking spots, if there are 20 or more spots available, it is not scramble parking.

[altiplano]

Maybe that has changed re-taxable for employer owned spaces, or maybe there is more to it.

But as I mentioned regarding scramble parking - not taxable, certainly there are not always adequate seats, when choosing to fly on passes, I can't go prime time, and the employer does not reimburse me for expenses incurred when I don't get one.

Also, I don't think I'm explaining well what I mean on the loss on an empty seat, I'm not referring to end of year profit/loss, but the ability to take a write down on the lost potential. Perhaps someone else can explain it to you better, I'm not an accountant. Another parallel may be if I'm a landlord I can write off a lost rent for a skipped/failed payment, but I can not write off a month my property was vacant.

[altiplano]

I'll also add. Don't you think CRA would tax it is they could? Clearly three is a compelling reason they do not...

[TheStig]

For those who are unfamiliar Jetz aircraft are A319's configured for charters (the Canadian NHL teams and Blue Jays). Obviously they aren't being flown right now and this is an interesting, and fairly low risk test. The loads are going to be light regardless, why not maximize yield?

I flew on a Jetz flight once. Over to Milwaukee when I went to Oshkosh one year for fun. I had checked the loads a few days before using my friends AC travel login password on the AC travel site(So handy over the years for planning commuting and vacations). Anyways, what seemed like a wide open flight suddenly was not when I checked again and saw that it had suddenly gone down to only 50 seats on the aircraft which I assumed was an aircraft substitution to a CRJ. But it was an airbus. Then I got on and I realized it was a Jetz aircraft.

I had a nice seat but there was club seating behind me. I thought I might try the empty backward seat for takeoff and landing but the cabin crew said it was not allowed. Seemed to me it would be safer if there was a sudden deceleration in an accident.

Interesting , I don't that there are any restrictions on using the rear facing seats and I believe that AC is marketing the club seats as a feature for families. On the sports charters those seats are usually occupied by the card sharks.

Players tend to be creatures of habit and don't tend to change seats, the FA's who fly with teams all season quickly learn to cater to the food, snack, drink, blanket, etc. tendencies of each occupant. I was always incredibly impressed with every aspect of the charters. In an industry that's increasingly turned into a big cattle-drive it was great to see such a service oriented product delivered.

[Old fella]

For those who are unfamiliar Jetz aircraft are A319's configured for charters (the Canadian NHL teams and Blue Jays). Obviously they aren't being flown right now and this is an interesting, and fairly low risk test. The loads are going to be light regardless, why not maximize yield?

I flew on a Jetz flight once. Over to Milwaukee when I went to Oshkosh one year for fun. I had checked the loads a few days before using my friends AC travel login password on the AC travel site(So handy over the years for planning commuting and vacations). Anyways, what seemed like a wide open flight suddenly was not when I checked again and saw that it had suddenly gone down to only 50 seats on the aircraft which I assumed was an aircraft substitution to a CRJ. But it was an airbus. Then I got on and I realized it was a Jetz aircraft.

I had a nice seat but there was club seating behind me. I thought I might try the empty backward seat for takeoff and landing but the cabin crew said it was not allowed. Seemed to me it would be safer if there was a sudden deceleration in an accident.

Interesting , I don't that there are any restrictions on using the rear facing seats and I believe that AC is marketing the club seats as a feature for families. On the sports charters those seats are usually occupied by the card sharks.

Players tend to be creatures of habit and don't tend to change seats, the FA's who fly with teams all season quickly learn to cater to the food, snack, drink, blanket, etc. tendencies of each occupant. I was always incredibly impressed with every aspect of the charters. In an industry that's increasingly turned into a big cattle-drive it was great to see such a service oriented product delivered.

Interesting for sure. Are those sports team trips assigned by seniority bids per trip or are crews assigned on a yearly basis. I would imagine there is a specific code of conduct like not looking for autographs, picture taking etc.

[TheStig]

Interesting for sure. Are those sports team trips assigned by seniority bids per trip or are crews assigned on a yearly basis. I would imagine there is a specific code of conduct like not looking for autographs, picture taking etc.

Yes the Charters are normally part of the monthly pairings, in playoffs the pairings are constructed later and placed into open time and covered by Reserves or picked up by Block holders. Some pairings are better than others, some don't involve flying the teams at all and are just repositioning the airplanes before jumping on a deadhead home. 48 Hour Nashville layovers go pretty senior. Some pilots love the Charter flights and others can't stand them. Things aren't as straight forward as sched flying and most of the flights are post-game and involve landing at 2-3am. There is a code of conduct, it's all pretty obvious stuff like you mentioned, but like everything, has had to be written down for a reason.

[confusedalot]

the covid thing is killing airlines worldwide. In ac's case, the cost is 16 to 20 million per day.

and you are worried about bidding for sports trips?

does anyone out there have a clue about the severity of the situation? the few billion of cash on hand is not going to last forever. grade 3 arithmetic.

[montado]

the covid thing is killing airlines worldwide. In ac's case, the cost is 16 to 20 million per day.

and you are worried about bidding for sports trips?

does anyone out there have a clue about the severity of the situation? the few billion of cash on hand is not going to last forever. grade 3 arithmetic.

The "Covid thing" isn't even the disease itself, its only the hysterical reaction to it. But I finally felt Trudeau actually gets me now. He said this pandemic sucks. Trudeau has pretty much given up on leading and says listen to your local public health.

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1812250691858/

Each day we are digging a bigger grave for every business impacted by these government actions. Funny thing is, Trudeau says Canadians don't want a simple approach to Covid that applies for everyone, and personally that's so far from the truth IMO. Social distance, Wear a mask when you cant social distance, and protect the old and vulnerable. Eliminate every other covid policy and daily update and change of policy/localized stage 2 etc. The media would burn out of garbage to talk about, the fear would go away and we could move on. People are scared because every day is a new knee jerk reaction like shutting down gyms and a fear mongering Speech from our Liberal Trudeau or other liberal Ford.

[gtappl]

the covid thing is killing airlines worldwide. In ac's case, the cost is 16 to 20 million per day.

and you are worried about bidding for sports trips?

does anyone out there have a clue about the severity of the situation? the few billion of cash on hand is not going to last forever. grade 3 arithmetic.

The "Covid thing" isn't even the disease itself, its only the hysterical reaction to it. But I finally felt Trudeau actually gets me now. He said this pandemic sucks. Trudeau has pretty much given up on leading and says listen to your local public health.

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1812250691858/

Each day we are digging a bigger grave for every business impacted by these government actions. Funny thing is, Trudeau says Canadians don't want a simple approach to Covid that applies for everyone, and personally that's so far from the truth IMO. Social distance, Wear a mask when you cant social distance, and protect the old and vulnerable. Eliminate every other covid policy and daily update and change of policy/localized stage 2 etc. The media would burn out of garbage to talk about, the fear would go away and we could move on. People are scared because every day is a new knee jerk reaction like shutting down gyms and a fear mongering Speech from our Liberal Trudeau or other liberal Ford.

What sort of reaction are you hoping for? 1 dude who caught something at a bar went to his gym and that will end up in about 100 cases.

Protecting the old is hard when PSW's can only be offered part time work and have to jump between different nursing homes in a single week. We built up a lot of things in our society on sand and covid is just the tide coming in.

[rookiepilot]

Sheesh, the "experts" weigh in.

Like Trudeau and co or not -- I don't, particularly---- this is (still) a new unknown virus.

I assume the world's best medical professionals are giving the political leaders advice. Those leaders -- at least a few of them, I'm sure -- have lost countless hours of sleep trying to navigate this mess, without inciting a depression, and trying not to kill too many people, with IMPERFECT INFORMATION.

You all do better, and Own it when it goes wrong.

I see the public health officials of some provinces on TV, every day, taking questions, trying to communicate.

But NO! Let's throw all of the legimate experts out of the room, for a group of so-called experts with Zero medical credentials, too cowardly to reveal their own names!

Run for office -- folks. Serve your country.

The sheer immaturity floors me.

[rooster]

Sheesh, the "experts" weigh in.

As the 'expert' weighs in on those weighing in. Don't come here acting like your sh*t don't stink criticizing everyone for being an 'expert' when the majority of regular members, including yourself have basically done the same with every thread on here. Welcome to opinion based internet forums. Go through your previous posts count all the times you've weighed in like an expert.

Look, if you want to be naive to think the world's leaders are acting solely on top doctors and medical professional's advice, you ago enjoy that rose field. Let's make no mistake, there is proven science based research that discredits lockdowns and many of these government restrictions. Why isn't ALL the advice being used. You think everything the world leaders do are in our best interest? LOL Wake up my dude. The WHO made a royal mess in the beginning. Weren't they the bastion of leadership on guiding us through the pandemic to begin with?

[rookiepilot]

Sheesh, the "experts" weigh in.

As the 'expert' weighs in on those weighing in. Don't come here acting like your sh*t don't stink criticizing everyone for being an 'expert' when the majority of regular members, including yourself have basically done the same with every thread on here. Welcome to opinion based internet forums. Go through your previous posts count all the times you've weighed in like an expert.

Look, if you want to be naive to think the world's leaders are acting solely on top doctors and medical professional's advice, you ago enjoy that rose field. Let's make no mistake, there is proven science based research that discredits lockdowns and many of these government restrictions. Why isn't ALL the advice being used. You think everything the world leaders do are in our best interest? LOL Wake up my dude. The WHO made a royal mess in the beginning. Weren't they the bastion of leadership on guiding us through the pandemic to begin with?

Followed by the conspiracy theorists.

Virus became an issue in March. Loads of experts...by April.

I'm low time, but been flying a bit longer than that. Aviation has been around a wee bit longer than this virus.

Yeah, I see loads of people not wearing masks indoors too. Coughing. They don't want to listen to health experts, so they do what they want.

Then write letters to your MP if the government is so deluded. I have done so in the past.

[flashheart]

Anyone who questions the government - "Conspiracist"

Well what if, and a big what if, if a government or political think tank is using Covid to push their agendas.

What if all the greenies love to see aviation suffering and people hiding in their homes.

What if they think this is great for their political agenda.

What if they don't care about the implications of said philosophy and think that RookiePilots becoming truck drivers or getting a "green job" is for the best.

Whenever someone tells me "they know best" - the hairs on the back my neck begin to stiffen.

[ReserveTank]

What if all the greenies love to see aviation suffering and people hiding in their homes.

Bingo. That's what the whole Greta Thunberg and flight shaming thing was about. A paid actor (from a family of actors) went to the cleanest countries on the planet to simply foreshadow what was to come.

Well what if, and a big what if, if a government or political think tank is using Covid to push their agendas.

This isn't so much government as it is uninhibited capitalism disguised as safety and security (Iraq 2003, anyone?)

Virus became an issue in March. Loads of experts...by April.

On experts...
Bill Gates, who has earned a diploma in neither medicine nor business is considered an expert in medicine. In the USA for example, Fauci and Birx (more experts) are paid through Gates' vaccine investments, so they say what Gates tells them to. This is not up for dispute--they receive money to backhandedly encourage travel restrictions and to promise an end to the restrictions, which would be taking a vaccine.
There have also been scores of genuine and educated medical experts (with zero profit motive) banned from social media for going against the grain on this. Are you simply following the "expert" that the TV instructed you to follow?

Followed by the conspiracy theorists.

Yeah, I see loads of people not wearing masks indoors too. Coughing. They don't want to listen to health experts, so they do what they want.

Cope how you need to. You would think that the reported origin of the virus, Wuhan, would be under the tightest of restrictions. They're back to enjoying parties and waterslides, and oh yeah, revenge travel. Your experts convinced you that everything is good in China now, but you Westerners have been bad, so you should decimate every industry in your countries, including the entire travel industry.
The thing to realize is this--the travel restrictions are only going to tighten further, whether or not you take a vaccine. The writing is on the wall, though few can read it. Air Canada (and all airlines worldwide) is not going to be making a comeback. You should be able to see this in the severe and permanent fleet and staffing changes that were made. These are not preparations for a temporary event. Freedom of movement in the West as you know it is finished.


This is actually very easy to figure out. If your neighbour or coworker were behaving anything like these "experts," you would have reported them or even called the cops. People just don't have the guts to question "authority," especially during times when it is in question the most.

[rookiepilot]

The thing to realize is this--the travel restrictions are only going to tighten further, whether or not you take a vaccine. The writing is on the wall, though few can read it. Air Canada (and all airlines worldwide) is not going to be making a comeback. You should be able to see this in the severe and permanent fleet and staffing changes that were made. These are not preparations for a temporary event. Freedom of movement in the West as you know it is finished.

That is an interesting view. I am newly long Air Canada stock, so obviously my view is different.

Arguments need not be all or nothing....there is nuance......

Questioning the government? Absolutely. Write letters. Protest. I'm 100% a supporter of your right to do so. 100%.

[gtappl]

Sheesh, the "experts" weigh in.

Like Trudeau and co or not -- I don't, particularly---- this is (still) a new unknown virus.

I assume the world's best medical professionals are giving the political leaders advice. Those leaders -- at least a few of them, I'm sure -- have lost countless hours of sleep trying to navigate this mess, without inciting a depression, and trying not to kill too many people, with IMPERFECT INFORMATION.

You all do better, and Own it when it goes wrong.

I see the public health officials of some provinces on TV, every day, taking questions, trying to communicate.

But NO! Let's throw all of the legimate experts out of the room, for a group of so-called experts with Zero medical credentials, too cowardly to reveal their own names!

Run for office -- folks. Serve your country.

The sheer immaturity floors me.

Rare case where I fully agree with you. It's easy to yell at someone for a bad decision made 6 months ago based on info that wasn't accurate, lot harder to realize we knew nothing then and had to plan for the worst.