Cargo TA

[a220hereicome]

I’m surprised there hasn’t been any discussion about industry comparators, and why the Company wants it flown at 90% rates. Lufthansa and Cathay are the only legacy carriers I can think of that have a cargo division, and their cargo rates are slightly less than 90% of mainline. To me that’s why the Company sees it as an industry standard, annoying as it may be. We’re not setting some dangerous or shameful new standard to capture this work, it’s already established.

In an arbitration I think the Company would argue that 90% of mainline rates, or something less than that, is industry standard for a cargo division. I’d always rather negotiate than arbitrate, because you never what you’re going to get with arbitration.

I’d like to think the 100 jobs that the cargo op creates will bring some of our guys and girls back early, but there’s just no way of knowing. Just like the two ERIPs, maybe an additional 200 retirements but we just can’t say for sure it prevented furloughs.

We’ve dropped our hours to the lowest monthly level in our history, so at least we’re trying to get our members back working. The ERIP and this cargo op are two other parts of that.

[landshark]

+1. Also have to look at the pay cuts the Cathay and Lufthansa pilots have taken.

[altiplano]

I’m surprised there hasn’t been any discussion about industry comparators, and why the Company wants it flown at 90% rates. Lufthansa and Cathay are the only legacy carriers I can think of that have a cargo division, and their cargo rates are slightly less than 90% of mainline. To me that’s why the Company sees it as an industry standard, annoying as it may be. We’re not setting some dangerous or shameful new standard to capture this work, it’s already established.

In an arbitration I think the Company would argue that 90% of mainline rates, or something less than that, is industry standard for a cargo division. I’d always rather negotiate than arbitrate, because you never what you’re going to get with arbitration.

I’d like to think the 100 jobs that the cargo op creates will bring some of our guys and girls back early, but there’s just no way of knowing. Just like the two ERIPs, maybe an additional 200 retirements but we just can’t say for sure it prevented furloughs.

We’ve dropped our hours to the lowest monthly level in our history, so at least we’re trying to get our members back working. The ERIP and this cargo op are two other parts of that.

Except they can't arbitrate article 1 or pay rates until Q3 in 2024 when the Framework MOA ends.

They can incorporate cargo today, they just need our agreement on doing it for shittier pay and work conditions. In fact they will do it. Listen to the it's prominence in the Q3 webcast. They are doing it, they want and need revenue streams and a few bucks and hour from us didn't change that.

To your points - LH cargo itself isn't tier 2 wage, but they do have another carrier that is, Aerologic or something. Cathay has had some many A/B/C scale etc over the years, but I don't believe Cargo itself is discounted further.

Now even if so, if these are the comparators, why don't we compare with them on wages and other contract conditions too?

The fact is AC cherry picks comparators to suit what ever they are looking to achieve. We are everything it seems - LCC, bottom feeder cargo op, charter vacation airline, regional airline, and yes we are even a Legacy Flag Carrying Network Airline but mostly only when it comes to comparators for executive compensation and business model and fares and history... and in fact what we really are. I think everyone here needs to start acting like it.

Covid will end. No permanent concessions. Protect the contract.

[Sceptical]

True, Cargo doesn't doesn't care if there is a business class or airport lounges or any other bells and whistles. But Air Canada is a premium service ferrying passengers around Canada and the world. There are other companies flying cargo. To add to my burger analogy, you don't see high-end burger joints starting an in-house cargo division just because it looks like some other cargo-only businesses seem to be making money at it. And, you don't see cargo operations starting to open up restaurants in their warehouses. Each serves it's own niche, and if the only way to break into the other's niche is to undercut yourselves, well then maybe you should stay in your own lane.

And, this is the biggie: if the only differentiator is cutting pilot wages by 10% to make the whole thing fly, I would posit that it is not a good business case.

So my take on this is that you are opposed to AC getting into the dedicated cargo aircraft market, "stay in your lane" as you would say as AC's lane is "premium service flying passengers in Canada and the world". Fair enough.

But let me ask you this: In keeping with your "stay in your lane" philosophy, you would also advocate then that Air Canada exit the leisure travel business too (i.e. Rouge pre or post COVID) as that is not a "premium service" - minimal service, high seating density, etc.? Pre-COVID, that was 65 aircraft of flying or about 1/4 of the fleet and therefore about 1/4 of the flying jobs at AC.

On your second point about whether this is a good business case or not, neither you nor I have access to the cost/revenue data to make that call but I would submit that given the competitive environment that, like the leisure market, the margins are very thin. Years ago before AC started making good money (around 2014, 2015, etc), AC was making, on average, $5 per passenger profit. Imagine, billions of dollars of capital investment, fluctuating fuel costs, sensitivity to geopolitical events, sensitivity to environmental events (volcano's, hurricanes, de-icing, etc.), ATC strikes, etc., etc. and all you can eek out is a $5 profit for all of that? While Calin, Ben Smith et al have done an amazing job turning AC around, the big profits came to AC (and other airlines too) only after the price of oil tanked in 2014. Coincidence?

My point is is that I suspect that the cargo margins are equally fine by their own measure ($ per kg*km) and that while pilot wages does not make or break it, it is one of the factors that dictates profitability and achieving a desired corporate return.

On that note, one of the things I liked about Mike Rousseau is that when he became CFO he instilled some financial discipline into aircraft acquisitions, route expansions, etc.. I recall a few years ago when marketing wanted more A330's to pursue some new markets but the business case did not meet the corporate economic return deemed to be required to take the risk.

While that is annoying for pilots as we all like to see new route, more airplanes, more jobs (i.e. better seniority), advancement, pay raises, etc., in the longer haul not pursuing marginal routes and losing money ultimately leads to more profitability which leads to more aircraft, routes, etc. when the time and circumstances are right to do that expansion...Australia is a case in point.

I am not going to go down the fast food rabbit hole except two comments. When you read the press release from McDonalds, half of the closures are in Walmart stores, hardly standalone burger joints. I would also say too that the number of "premium" burger joints opening are substantially less than those that are closing so premium burgers are not overtaking the burger business anytime soon.

[a220hereicome]

To your points - LH cargo itself isn't tier 2 wage, but they do have another carrier that is, Aerologic or something. Cathay has had some many A/B/C scale etc over the years, but I don't believe Cargo itself is discounted further.

Nope.

LH pilots can bid back and forth between LH mainline and LH Cargo, but at a discount. Same master seniority list.

Cathay pilots can also move between mainline and cargo. Same thing, at a discount.

In both cases, the pay at cargo is less than 90% of mainline rates.

As to your other point, "why don't we compare with them on wages and other contract conditions too?" I wouldn't want to compare ourselves to Cathay right now at all. They just had their total compensation package permanently slashed by 40%.

[RRJetPilot]

40% cut that is still much better than what Canadian Airlines pay.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

But let me ask you this: In keeping with your "stay in your lane" philosophy, you would also advocate then that Air Canada exit the leisure travel business too (i.e. Rouge pre or post COVID) as that is not a "premium service" - minimal service, high seating density, etc.? Pre-COVID, that was 65 aircraft of flying or about 1/4 of the fleet and therefore about 1/4 of the flying jobs at AC.

I would say that while the Rouge product isn't "premium" is is still in the Air Canada wheelhouse of taking passengers from A to B. Cargo is a different animal.

The question keeps getting asked: why are no other participants in the logistical chain (dispatchers, maintenance, rampies, etc) being asked to "chip in" as well and take a 10% cut? To make this whole endeavour worthwhile to the company, it CAN'T come down to a 10% wage cut to the pilot group alone. Even IF the pilots took a 10% cut, a small weather deviation would eat up that savings in additional fuel right there. I'm sure the profit margins are good enough that such a small difference won't make or break the whole operation.

Here's a different example I can think of which might be a better analogy than burger and fries: Think of a taxi driver. Their bread and butter is getting people from A to B. However, now and then, someone will pay for a taxi to get a parcel somewhere within the city that the taxi operates. The whole operation is still mainly passengers, but a little courier service will add a little extra income for the company. It's the same driver, same vehicle, same roads, same zone-based fares, etc. Imagine that the dispatcher puts out a request for a driver to pick up and deliver a package, but in doing so, they'll only get paid 10% of their zone-based fare compared to taking a person from the same pick-up and drop-off point. Would YOU want to be that driver doing the same job for 10% less, when the dispatcher still gets paid the same whether they dispatch a passenger or a courier taxi?

As a driver, I would think that they would tell the dispatcher to pound sand.

[Sceptical]

40% cut that is still much better than what Canadian Airlines pay.

So explain to me why, during our hiring spree prior to COVID, the newhire bio's showed them coming from Emirates, Cathay and others. And that was before the draconian wage cut at Cathay?

Alternatively, I did not see too many resignations on the CMSC equipment bids therefore virtually no one was leaving AC to go to Cathay or elsewhere, pre-COVID.

That tells me that Cathay (and Emirates and others) were less desirable even pre 40% pay cut.

The proof, they say, is in the pudding.

[Sceptical]

But let me ask you this: In keeping with your "stay in your lane" philosophy, you would also advocate then that Air Canada exit the leisure travel business too (i.e. Rouge pre or post COVID) as that is not a "premium service" - minimal service, high seating density, etc.? Pre-COVID, that was 65 aircraft of flying or about 1/4 of the fleet and therefore about 1/4 of the flying jobs at AC.

I would say that while the Rouge product isn't "premium" is is still in the Air Canada wheelhouse of taking passengers from A to B. Cargo is a different animal.

The question keeps getting asked: why are no other participants in the logistical chain (dispatchers, maintenance, rampies, etc) being asked to "chip in" as well and take a 10% cut? To make this whole endeavour worthwhile to the company, it CAN'T come down to a 10% wage cut to the pilot group alone. Even IF the pilots took a 10% cut, a small weather deviation would eat up that savings in additional fuel right there. I'm sure the profit margins are good enough that such a small difference won't make or break the whole operation.

Here's a different example I can think of which might be a better analogy than burger and fries: Think of a taxi driver. Their bread and butter is getting people from A to B. However, now and then, someone will pay for a taxi to get a parcel somewhere within the city that the taxi operates. The whole operation is still mainly passengers, but a little courier service will add a little extra income for the company. It's the same driver, same vehicle, same roads, same zone-based fares, etc. Imagine that the dispatcher puts out a request for a driver to pick up and deliver a package, but in doing so, they'll only get paid 10% of their zone-based fare compared to taking a person from the same pick-up and drop-off point. Would YOU want to be that driver doing the same job for 10% less, when the dispatcher still gets paid the same whether they dispatch a passenger or a courier taxi?

As a driver, I would think that they would tell the dispatcher to pound sand.

I suspect, but can't readily confirm it, that dispatchers, AME's, ground handlers, etc. are already cost competitive with the competition, i.e. CargoJet. AC pilots at mainline rates are not. Fact. I would also submit - and it pains me to write this as I am not a socialist - is that a 10% hit for someone making almost $200K per year as a Captain is more defense able than a 10% reduction for someone making barely above minimum wage (ground handler) or someone making $28 per hour (I think that is the AME rate or at least it was a few years ago which is shameful for the skills and responsibilities they have). Regardless of this, I suspect that these others are already being paid "industry standard" for the cargo business already.

WRT to your taxi analogy, it would be more realistic if, at the start of the process of seeking out a taxi to take the parcel from A to B, that the customer asked for quotes (like a cargo forwarder would do with air freight). I would submit that the taxi company that offered the lowest price in a competitive bid process would be successful. And the one with the lowest price would have the lowest cost including, perhaps, the driver doing the same route for 90% of his or her normal compensation.

[flashheart]

The fallacy that pilots are the make or break point for an operation continues...

[altiplano]

They just had their total compensation package permanently slashed by 40%.

And even with a 40% pay cut they are still making more than us.

Passenger pay scale covers all HKG based pilots. Maybe at the out bases there is some differences. But in that case there are differences from HKG to bases too.

Here's the COS18 package attached, point out to me where it says Freighter pilots make 10% less.

CX COS18 Employee Handbook (Rev 5).pdf

(448.81 KiB) Downloaded 92 times

My friend at CX has told me same same on pay.

Someone currently at CX can come on here and correct me, but I'm not buying from a company shill.

[Galaxy]

Looks like you can add drone pilots into your next contract

https://www.freightwaves.com/news/air-c ... 5252108775

[Bigdog]

Yes just a matter of time until freighters become pilotless. We already have military drones that can fly thousands of miles carry out missions and return without any issues. Marketing/FAA though will still insist on pilots for passenger operations even as the work load becomes less and less.

[Bigdog]

They just had their total compensation package permanently slashed by 40%.

And even with a 40% pay cut they are still making more than us.

Passenger pay scale covers all HKG based pilots. Maybe at the out bases there is some differences. But in that case there are differences from HKG to bases too.

Here's the COS18 package attached, point out to me where it says Freighter pilots make 10% less.

CX COS18 Employee Handbook (Rev 5).pdf

My friend at CX has told me same same on pay.

Someone currently at CX can come on here and correct me, but I'm not buying from a company shill.

Note. Last time I checked it took roughly 6 HK dollars to buy 1 CAD dollar and that spread will probably increase.

[Tdicommuter]

You think it is ok to say other people make less therefore we should too? What a silly notion. What other people get, does not impact what we get. I have to explain that concept to my children, I would not think I need to explain that logic to an adult. I don't care how much our dispatchers make, nor should I ever be concerned about that. I literally only collect my paycheck to OPERATE an airplane. That is the reason our collective agreement only deals with pilot related stuff.

Who cares what the optics are? Pilot makes lots therefore it's easy to dock their pay? What a stupid thing to say! Doctors make lots therefore let's dock their pay as the economy needs to preserve cash and their secretaries make less.
I do not want the remainder of my career to be working more days, while getting paid less. Period. Full stop.
Yes the organization is not doing great right now, but that's why it would be easy to have a full return to mainline provision. If this was a temporary amount, and a temporary work schedule I think this would have passed 98 percent.

Also when you are talking about new hires coming from foreign companies why not paint the whole picture? Hong Kong saw some wild protests, and potentially an invasion by the military from the mainland. That would be enough to get me to come home. A few came from the middle East but we were seeing upgrades at around a year. Easy to come home for that idea. Remember these are Canadians returning home, not foreign nationals coming over. I had someone in my PIT course resign before he made it to his first recurrent, left for a direct entry at Flair. He did it to stay home more and in the short term made more. So don't say 'we had a bunch come this way, didn't notice a trend the other way'.
I think we all want this. I have a hard time believing that because right now, things are tough, our futures will be harmed forever.
Make it a one year MOA for the conditions, return to mainline everything after that and I suspect this vote will turn out differently.

Time will tell how this goes. I hope it gets voted down.

[Johnny767]

Where did all the loud mouth, 250 hour Jazz experts go?

[Torontomaplelaughs]

Where did all the loud mouth, 250 hour Jazz experts go?

How on earth did you become the MEC Chair?

ACPA has a rich history of failure and you certainly stepped up to the plate

[Tdicommuter]

Where did all the loud mouth, 250 hour Jazz experts go?

Sorry... Quite a few hours more than that. Came from a couple companies before this but not jazz. Second career. 2 university degrees. When I decided to become a pilot the plan was always keep moving forward. Aka don't purposely vote on a potentially career long pay cut.... However and here is the kicker. Democracy works by respecting all voices. Even were i, or another person is junior how does that mean their voice matters less? Having more time within an organization does not mean you are more capable to voice your opinion. One could argue that having more years left in this company means you should have a greater vote as you have more skin in the game. I personally don't believe that because the fact is that we all get one vote therefore we are all entitled to an opinion.

[bcflyer]

The legal guy said during the webinar ‘there is a 2009 precedence for 90% rates for cargo’ get fking real, precedence going back 11 years

Well there is a 2009 precedence for DB pension as well, can we trade 90% for DB for all?

These guys have a defeatist mentality. Legal, MEC chair, negots chair, someone’s gotta go after this debacle. Paid almost $3k in union dues this year so far for these clowns.

People tried last election. Members voted for more of the same. They have no one to blame but themselves when things go up shit creek.

YVR and YUL voted for more of the same. It's unfortunate that we don't have a roll call vote.

Not everyone in YVR voted for more of the same. I believe it was closer than last time and if the furloughed guys/gals were voting it could have gone the other way. We desperately need change. Hopefully next time.

[altiplano]

People tried last election. Members voted for more of the same. They have no one to blame but themselves when things go up shit creek.

YVR and YUL voted for more of the same. It's unfortunate that we don't have a roll call vote.

Not everyone in YVR voted for more of the same. I believe it was closer than last time and if the furloughed guys/gals were voting it could have gone the other way. We desperately need change. Hopefully next time.

Of course not everyone. You guys have work to do.

[Oxi]

So Johnny767 is M.mckay?

[a220hereicome]

And even with a 40% pay cut they are still making more than us.

Passenger pay scale covers all HKG based pilots. Maybe at the out bases there is some differences. But in that case there are differences from HKG to bases too.

Here's the COS18 package attached, point out to me where it says Freighter pilots make 10% less.

CX COS18 Employee Handbook (Rev 5).pdf

My friend at CX has told me same same on pay.

Someone currently at CX can come on here and correct me, but I'm not buying from a company shill.

"Company shill".

Nice. Just because someone disagrees with you or points out a few facts that you don't like doesn't make them a Company shill. But that's the forum. Facts = kryptonite.

Cathay Cargo is based in North America at three different bases. That contract you posted is for Hong Kong based crews only.

And I have to correct myself, Cathay Cargo pilots are not paid at 90% of mainline rates. It's 89%.

Secure the work. In-house. Get our members back on the payroll.

[altiplano]

There you go. You're talking bases in different countries, not Cargo vs. PAX.

PAX crews in bases make different than PAX crews in HKG too.

You aren't presenting facts, you are pushing fear and fallacies based on your inaccurate information.

Company shill? You have made 17 posts all pro-concession, pro-ACPA groupthink, you don't offer any other contributions on this forum.

[a220hereicome]

There you go. You're talking bases in different countries, not Cargo vs. PAX.

PAX crews in bases make different than PAX crews in HKG too.

You aren't presenting facts, you are pushing fear and fallacies based on your inaccurate information.

Brother, just read my post. I am talking cargo vs pax.

A Cathay pilot in Los Angeles, New York or Vancouver will be paid about 11% less flying the B747F than if they were at mainline on the same base and the same seat on the B747.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Of course the pay scales and housing allowances are higher in Hong Kong, it costs $1M for a closet with a fold-out bunk and a hotplate. Sounds like fun.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Where did all the loud mouth, 250 hour Jazz experts go?

Sorry... Quite a few hours more than that. Came from a couple companies before this but not jazz. Second career. 2 university degrees. When I decided to become a pilot the plan was always keep moving forward. Aka don't purposely vote on a potentially career long pay cut.... However and here is the kicker. Democracy works by respecting all voices. Even were i, or another person is junior how does that mean their voice matters less? Having more time within an organization does not mean you are more capable to voice your opinion. One could argue that having more years left in this company means you should have a greater vote as you have more skin in the game. I personally don't believe that because the fact is that we all get one vote therefore we are all entitled to an opinion.

You’re 100% right.

It’s funny, when I first started at AC I was flying with this fellow, he basically spelled it out for me how the union only gave a shit about the guys who have been here 20+ years, or those who are part of the “old boys club” and that I had better get used to it.

He wasn’t saying it maliciously, I recall he was on the junior side of 20 years himself so it was more of a heads up than anything.

Now I’m starting to see how true that really is. If we really do have some LEC members in this thread, why are they not listening to and addressing the concerns of their membership instead of participating in the rhetoric?

Here I was under the impression that unions had to represent ALL pilots? Silly me!