Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

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northernpilot2
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by northernpilot2 »

CpnCrunch wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:11 pm So, what do people have against wearing a mask while in Walmart, or doing flight instructing, or whatever you're doing? Why is that so difficult?
Why can't the scared people just stay home? They have needs to go out? Then they should put on the mask, maybe with extra layers. They should mind their own business. They shouldn't be forcing their opinions on others.
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av8ts
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by av8ts »

northernpilot2 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:15 am
CpnCrunch wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:11 pm So, what do people have against wearing a mask while in Walmart, or doing flight instructing, or whatever you're doing? Why is that so difficult?
Why can't the scared people just stay home? They have needs to go out? Then they should put on the mask, maybe with extra layers. They should mind their own business. They shouldn't be forcing their opinions on others.
They are wearing the mask for your safety. But your too stupid to know it.
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northernpilot2
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by northernpilot2 »

av8ts wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:25 am
They are wearing the mask for your safety. But your too stupid to know it.
Why can't I worry about my own safety myself? Why should they worry about it? It's like me telling smokers not to smoke, because I'm concerned with their safety so they don't get cancer.
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montado
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by montado »

Now that we are nearly a year into this studies specifically about the efficacy of masks are rolling out as in this article.

https://fee.org/articles/new-danish-stu ... infection/

And here is the link to the study

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

And it was the author’s opinion based on this research that

reasonable and persuasive cases can be made both for and against the use of masks in the healthy population. But by replacing individual choice with collective mandates, public officials have politicized the issue and polluted the science. For example, scientists have faced retraction demands on research that concluded mask-for-all policies were not based on sound data. Additionally, the Danish study appears to have been delayed because medical journals were wary of its findings.Few of us—even medical professionals, it seems—are able to answer with any degree of certainty whether masks are an effective form of protection against the coronavirus. Some see this as a reason to force everyone to wear a mask. Yet in reality, the uncertainty is all the more reason the decision should be left to individuals.

We aren’t even talking about cloth masks, this is medical grade masks in this study.

However the CDC is also going out of their way to support cloth masks and say they even protect the wearer, in this updated scientific brief.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... -cov2.html

I anticipate over the next 24 months we will see many more developments in the mask debate. However based on my readings of research on masks usually geared towards influenza I do think that mandatory mask policy is government over-reach, and is causing more harm by driving fear and hysteria. It also gives people a false sense of safety. I have a family member who is certain their mask protects them because it is surgical grade. No study clearly shows a level of efficacy to these masks.
I think the reality is the only way we would be in a measurable level of efficacy is if we got into the world of respirators. If covid is spreading by aerosol and surface contact, masks could just make the problem worse if we are touching our faces all the time adjusting our masks.

Is it unfair for me to say this is government over-reach and masks should be optional for those who feel safer? Not sure why this is even a debate. We have mandatory masks throughout Ontario, how many people are still getting covid while following mask guidelines? And the argument that it’s better than nothing, may not be true. Maybe wearing a masks and not physically distancing because you feel safe, causes infections. Maybe people removing masks and touching their faces has caused infections. So wearing masks is not better than doing nothing just because you feel like it’s a simple and easy thing to do. At least you should let people make this decision for themselves.

I have so many questions and no answers. Such as if medical grade masks work better, why aren’t these issued to everyone? Why nearly a year into this are we still saying we have shortages of masks? China builds a hospital in 6 days, Canada in 300 days says keep going to fabric land and make something to cover your nose mouth and chin... oh and now do 3 layers and put a filter... Com’on man! This is all just such nonsense. My other question would be why haven’t we ramped up staffing and hospital beds at our hospitals. Why does Doug ford think the logical thing to do is lockdown, rather than keep the economy going and hospital beds available... are we just can kickers? No one can honestly tell me they think we are doing a good job.
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marlin
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by marlin »

The CDC brief is by a US government department and cites 45 studies to back up its recommendations.

The article you posted above it cites one study, and is written by a privately run libertarian think-tank. I feel it's important to mention that the author's opinion mentioned above was from the FEE.org article's author, not the study that it cited. The Danish study referenced closes with these two paragraphs - I've underlined portions, but I feel it's all worth reading:
Our results suggest that the recommendation to wear a surgical mask when outside the home among others did not reduce, at conventional levels of statistical significance, the incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection in mask wearers in a setting where social distancing and other public health measures were in effect, mask recommendations were not among those measures, and community use of masks was uncommon. Yet, the findings were inconclusive and cannot definitively exclude a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection of mask wearers in such a setting. It is important to emphasize that this trial did not address the effects of masks as source control or as protection in settings where social distancing and other public health measures are not in effect.

Reduction in release of virus from infected persons into the environment may be the mechanism for mitigation of transmission in communities where mask use is common or mandated, as noted in observational studies. Thus, these findings do not provide data on the effectiveness of widespread mask wearing in the community in reducing SARS-CoV-2 infections. They do, however, offer evidence about the degree of protection mask wearers can anticipate in a setting where others are not wearing masks and where other public health measures, including social distancing, are in effect. The findings also suggest that persons should not abandon other COVID-19 safety measures regardless of the use of masks. While we await additional data to inform mask recommendations, communities must balance the seriousness of COVID-19, uncertainty about the degree of source control and protective effect, and the absence of data suggesting serious adverse effects of masks.
The CDC's conclusion is, in part:
The relationship between source control and personal protection is likely complementary and possibly synergistic, so that individual benefit increases with increasing community mask use. Further research is needed to expand the evidence base for the protective effect of cloth masks and in particular to identify the combinations of materials that maximize both their blocking and filtering effectiveness, as well as fit, comfort, durability, and consumer appeal. Adopting universal masking policies can help avert future lockdowns, especially if combined with other non-pharmaceutical interventions such as social distancing, hand hygiene, and adequate ventilation.
The problem at hand is that when it comes to community disease control, any strategy is only as effective as the population's efforts to implement it. The Danish study emphasizes that it was based on a smaller subset of a population wearing masks vs. the majority not doing so, while the CDC's conclusion is that available data points to an increase in overall effectiveness when a higher percentage of the population participates in mask wearing, and more importantly, the other basic measures that people can (and should!) take in conjunction.

It is very easy to pick a few lines from a single study out of context and claim that it's scientific proof of one's desired point. I don't see how one can make claims from this one study (that itself came to no definitive conclusion), while at the same time ignoring data from 45 other studies and the CDC's conclusion that points to them at the very least being useful in conjunction with other measures. If people are ignoring the other measures, then that's not a mask problem. That's a 'people are stupid' problem, and should be rectified by, instead of attacking masks and the evolving data surrounding them, pointing out and correcting those people's irresponsible behaviour. Letting those same people instead make random, poorly informed decisions about what precautions they take, regardless of their impact on others, and expecting that to somehow pan out better for the populace doesn't seem logical to me.

If, eventually, it can be conclusively proven that people wearing masks worsened the pandemic, then by all means get the tar and feathers for me. Just wash your hands first...
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av8ts
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by av8ts »

northernpilot2 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:47 am
av8ts wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:25 am
They are wearing the mask for your safety. But your too stupid to know it.
Why can't I worry about my own safety myself? Why should they worry about it? It's like me telling smokers not to smoke, because I'm concerned with their safety so they don't get cancer.
No it’s like you not blowing smoke in their face because your concerned about their safety
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montado
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by montado »



Okay I'm convinced... If everyone wears a mask for 10 weeks, covid could be eradicated/s

I just had a family member pass away with covid, (second cousin) he had COPD, heavy smoker, drank lots. His general health was bad and at the beginning of this pandemic he called me worried about things. He wore a mask diligently, even while outside. He was one of the ones who followed the guidelines as well as possible and avoided going out when not required.

I know that whether is was covid or influenza or pneumonia, whatever he got was going to hit hard and likely take him to the edge. According to the CDC wearing a mask is the best! Maybe even better than a vaccine. What a joke!
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mixturerich
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by mixturerich »

montado wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:07 pm

Okay I'm convinced... If everyone wears a mask for 10 weeks, covid could be eradicated/s

I just had a family member pass away with covid, (second cousin) he had COPD, heavy smoker, drank lots. His general health was bad and at the beginning of this pandemic he called me worried about things. He wore a mask diligently, even while outside. He was one of the ones who followed the guidelines as well as possible and avoided going out when not required.

I know that whether is was covid or influenza or pneumonia, whatever he got was going to hit hard and likely take him to the edge. According to the CDC wearing a mask is the best! Maybe even better than a vaccine. What a joke!
It’s really not so black and white all the time. I’m sorry for your loss. However, not everyone shares the same “they had it coming to them” attitude. Shame you can’t properly empathize with others whatsoever. It’s just your way or the highway. Masks are perfect or they’re useless. You can’t just be team player through this like the rest of us, can you? Instead you’re choosing to
a scoffing, exaggerative, sarcastic jerk.

We’re all so sick and tired of this pandemic, but what we’re even more sick and tired of, are mask naysayers like you who insult humanity for being frightened and wanting to follow basic directions. Have some respect. You’re so out of touch that you can’t even understand that humans have innate fears and flaws. You’re one of those “more informed” types that thinks they’re better than everyone else. Get over yourself, seriously.
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by confusedalot »

Maybe a few things to point out in order to see context.....

Nobody likes fatality rates but as that guy Benjamin Franklin said, the only sure things in life are death and taxes. I can't argue with that.

The leading cause of death is cancer, second is heart disease, third is this strain of covid. In Canada alone, about 80000 people die of cancer each year. A little less die of heart disease, not by much. Canada has about 10000 covid deaths up to now, will probably be about 15000 on a yearly adjusted basis. If nobody took precautions, maybe the toll would have been, what, 40000, 50000? So precautions help, but won't fix the problem.

The Swedish approach produced a spike in fatalities early on, but now their fatality rate is on the decline, or stable, whereas rates are spiking all over the world. (6 died on november 19th).

Fire away, I am only pointing things out. For my part, I am dismayed that media and leadership are not putting things into perspective.
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montado
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by montado »

confusedalot wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:29 am Maybe a few things to point out in order to see context.....

Nobody likes fatality rates but as that guy Benjamin Franklin said, the only sure things in life are death and taxes. I can't argue with that.

The leading cause of death is cancer, second is heart disease, third is this strain of covid. In Canada alone, about 80000 people die of cancer each year. A little less die of heart disease, not by much. Canada has about 10000 covid deaths up to now, will probably be about 15000 on a yearly adjusted basis. If nobody took precautions, maybe the toll would have been, what, 40000, 50000? So precautions help, but won't fix the problem.

The Swedish approach produced a spike in fatalities early on, but now their fatality rate is on the decline, or stable, whereas rates are spiking all over the world. (6 died on november 19th).

Fire away, I am only pointing things out. For my part, I am dismayed that media and leadership are not putting things into perspective.
One might argue "Cancer is not contagious"

But we do know two main factors in cancer is genetics and diet. Why doesn't the government take all the shitty breakfast cereals off the shelf and control the population. If we significantly controlled everyone's diet and reduced sugar we could delay deaths for many many years. Seems like your 50s is that age where maybe genetics or your life choices may make you a statistic where cancer or heart disease slide in. If we like government restrictions to protect our health from covid why is it not reasonable for the government to get more involved with what you eat? Why can't we tell women who carry the BRCA1 and BRCA2 gene they can't reproduce as this is likely to pass on to their children and statically put them at significant risk of developing cancer.

We could definitely free up thousands of hospital beds if we take away more freedoms, such as what you can eat, and who allowed to reproduce.

I think the moral and ethical issues to even suggest what I'm saying is ridiculous. But these are the arguments I get in with people. I have had people tell me they believe people who don't wear a mask or refuse a vaccine should have their healthcare revoked. What a belief! I tell them I think obese people and smokers should have their healthcare revoked as a ridiculous counter argument. The science behind genes diet obesity and cancer is more definitive than mask wearing for covid. We could more easily measure how many deaths we could delay if we were restricted to a government diet.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Government diet = long bread lines
Just ask anyone who lived behind the iron curtain
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

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???
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mixturerich
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by mixturerich »

Just guessing here but I think he misinterpreted your statement about a government diet as an “information diet” when you actually meant it about food.
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montado
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by montado »

“The fact that the doctors highlighted that if all goes according to plan, we should be able to have a majority of Canadians vaccinated by next September, puts us in very good stead,” Trudeau said, speaking from the front steps of Rideau Cottage. One of Canada’s top doctors said shortly afterwards that a September timeline is “optimistic” – though he added that he shares that optimism with the prime minister.

Looks like Trudeau dropped the ball on this one. He had one job, but spent his time with weekly announcements about doom.

One thing I see over and over again is being Canadian is not about receiving the best healthcare, it’s always been more about receiving equal healthcare. Canadians don’t care if a MRI list is 4 month wait, they just don’t want to see one person book an MRI at a private clinic and receive care out of line.

Secondly in Canadian ways, my guess is Trudeau paid a hefty price for these doses. It would not be Canadian if we didn’t pay more for an inferior timeline. Just like we pay more for cellphones, flights and just about everything else. What will be the cost to Canadians being on the 6 month back burner waiting for this vaccine? I think 2021 is looking pretty bleak for Canadian airlines and small businesses. By the sounds of things Canadians may not even be at vaccination levels enough to protect us for the 2021 2022 flu season unless the most optimistic timeline prevail.
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by 2R »

https://www.wsj.com/articles/united-beg ... 1606512293

Vaccines have been positioned from Belgium , and they will begin as soon as approval begins , very soon .
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

That article sits behind an evil paywall.

Try this link from Fidelity Investments instead
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montado
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by montado »

2R wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:10 pm https://www.wsj.com/articles/united-beg ... 1606512293

Vaccines have been positioned from Belgium , and they will begin as soon as approval begins , very soon .
In Canada?
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by 2R »

montado wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:36 pm
2R wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:10 pm https://www.wsj.com/articles/united-beg ... 1606512293

Vaccines have been positioned from Belgium , and they will begin as soon as approval begins , very soon .
In Canada?
Soon , it is the beginning of the end for this global pandemic . They will be shipping it here soon all the way from Belgium . The country that gave the world Stella Artois . A world class brew that is as good as Warsteiner and Steam Whistle :)
Help is coming .
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by '97 Tercel »

I'm still wearing my mask forever, it makes me feel safe. It's like a warm unicorn blanket filled with bacteria and pocket lint.
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