Cargo TA

[RVR6000]

I think they will too, but! I would put nothing passed AC management. I don't know the details well enough but I would imagine the ALPA agreement protects pilots in this scenario.

Ac management won’t have a say. It’s Labor law. Seniority will be negotiated via both unions.

..

[PostmasterGeneral]

I think they will too, but! I would put nothing passed AC management. I don't know the details well enough but I would imagine the ALPA agreement protects pilots in this scenario.

Ac management won’t have a say. It’s Labor law. Seniority will be negotiated via both unions.

Where do the rules differ on a merger vs an acquisition?

[alkaseltzer]

I think they will too, but! I would put nothing passed AC management. I don't know the details well enough but I would imagine the ALPA agreement protects pilots in this scenario.

Ac management won’t have a say. It’s Labor law. Seniority will be negotiated via both unions.

I will ask the question - anyone can answer - what if this cargo initiative is an entirely separate entity? Where AC pilots that bid over to it, BEFORE the transat merger, don't lose equipment seniority? So if I were to hold NB Captain, but bid Cargo NB Capt...then the transat merger happens, would the legal argument become, I may lose my spot due to the merging of seniority lists? Or since this cargo division was never contingent on the Transat deal, that your respective seniority on the cargo list (vs overall) is untouched? By the time this merger were to happen, wouldn't all the cargo spots, both captain and FO, get filled up? Would there be active displacement is probably the better question.

[rudder]

I will ask the question - anyone can answer - what if this cargo initiative is an entirely separate entity? Where AC pilots that bid over to it, BEFORE the transat merger, don't lose equipment seniority? So if I were to hold NB Captain, but bid Cargo NB Capt...then the transat merger happens, would the legal argument become, I may lose my spot due to the merging of seniority lists? Or since this cargo division was never contingent on the Transat deal, that your respective seniority on the cargo list (vs overall) is untouched? By the time this merger were to happen, wouldn't all the cargo spots, both captain and FO, get filled up? Would there be active displacement is probably the better question.

A provision of almost every integrated list solution - whether negotiated or arbitrated - is a “no bump/no flush”
condition on implementation.

So the short answer is ‘no’.

[rudder]

Where do the rules differ on a merger vs an acquisition?

Everybody is acting like the wheel is being reinvented for the AC/TS merger. It is not.

If the TRZ transaction is consummated, there will be 1 resulting pilot seniority list. Why? Because the ACPA CBA says so. ACPA could waive that, or ACPA could allow additional operating certificates (i.e. Cargo), but that is unlikely in this case. AC will have to decide on a commercial/operational structure going forward that is compliant with the restrictions contained in the ACPA CBA.

History is the teacher. Look at the AC/CDN merger. Always possible there will be CIRB intervention if rules of natural justice are not followed in the seniority integration process. The CIRB will not be involved in determining how many sub-businesses that AC may run.

[FL320]

If the TRZ transaction is consummated, there will be 1 resulting pilot seniority list. Why? Because the ACPA CBA says so.

ALPA CBA too; so they should be on the same page.

[Squid]

This is going to arbitration anyway you slice it. I agree history is indeed the teacher and I would expect with past precedent set it will be a quick decision or ruling. Alpa and acpa are already preparing with alpa wanting date of hire pure and simple but my money is on a formula.

[rudder]

This is going to arbitration anyway you slice it. I agree history is indeed the teacher and I would expect with past precedent set it will be a quick decision or ruling. Alpa and acpa are already preparing with alpa wanting date of hire pure and simple but my money is on a formula.

The AC list is not a DOH list (due to the CDN merger). Therefore, a DOH solution is not an option.

[Fanblade]

This is going to arbitration anyway you slice it. I agree history is indeed the teacher and I would expect with past precedent set it will be a quick decision or ruling. Alpa and acpa are already preparing with alpa wanting date of hire pure and simple but my money is on a formula.

The AC list is not a DOH list (due to the CDN merger). Therefore, a DOH solution is not an option.

Getting off topic. It doesn’t stop one side from trying though. Initially the Canadian pilots were pushing for a DOH list even though their own list wasn’t DOH. It forced a two part arbitration. The first part, arguments for and against DOH or Ratio. Ratio was the arbitrated result. Then the arbitration moved on to integration.

So trying, although a very very long shot, is not out of the question. What that stance does guarantee though is arbitration. It will mean ACPA will move in the polar opposite direction. Not even giving a single shot at seeing eye to eye on the issue.

[RRJetPilot]

AC renegotiated the purchase at $5/share, with a requirement any competing offer must be above $6. At the moment the stock is sitting at $5.94. The market almost 100% believes AC will not purchase TS and that another buyer (or government) will step in. So right now the purchase does not even look like it will go through.

[rudder]

This is going to arbitration anyway you slice it. I agree history is indeed the teacher and I would expect with past precedent set it will be a quick decision or ruling. Alpa and acpa are already preparing with alpa wanting date of hire pure and simple but my money is on a formula.

The AC list is not a DOH list (due to the CDN merger). Therefore, a DOH solution is not an option.

Getting off topic. It doesn’t stop one side from trying though. Initially the Canadian pilots were pushing for a DOH list even though their own list wasn’t DOH. It forced a two part arbitration. The first part, arguments for and against DOH or Ratio. Ratio was the arbitrated result. Then the arbitration moved on to integration.

So trying, although a very very long shot, is not out of the question. What that stance does guarantee though is arbitration. It will mean ACPA will move in the polar opposite direction. Not even giving a single shot at seeing eye to eye on the issue.

You cannot make apple pie with a mix of apples and oranges.

Regardless, take a look at the last decade of arbitrated awards and they are all ratios, some with delayed ratio start point imposed, and some with variable ratios.

Don’t want to turn this in to a merger thread. I am sure there will be several if the TRZ transaction is consummated.

[rudder]

AC renegotiated the purchase at $5/share, with a requirement any competing offer must be above $6. At the moment the stock is sitting at $5.94. The market almost 100% believes AC will not purchase TS and that another buyer (or government) will step in. So right now the purchase does not even look like it will go through.

Covered this issue already.

TRZ share price is rising only because there is a feature of the revised purchase agreement that allows TRZ shareholders to take AC stock in lieu of $5/share in cash.

As the ratio for share exchange was fixed, the recent increases in AC share value has increased the effective value of a TRZ share and that is being reflected in the daily trading price of TRZ shares.

[columbia]

AC renegotiated the purchase at $5/share, with a requirement any competing offer must be above $6. At the moment the stock is sitting at $5.94. The market almost 100% believes AC will not purchase TS and that another buyer (or government) will step in. So right now the purchase does not even look like it will go through.

Covered this issue already.

TRZ share price is rising only because there is a feature of the revised purchase agreement that allows TRZ shareholders to take AC stock in lieu of $5/share in cash.

As the ratio for share exchange was fixed, the recent increases in AC share value has increased the effective value of a TRZ share and that is being reflected in the daily trading price of TRZ shares.

Exactly. TRZ stock is basically an option right now.

[milhouse]

AC renegotiated the purchase at $5/share, with a requirement any competing offer must be above $6. At the moment the stock is sitting at $5.94. The market almost 100% believes AC will not purchase TS and that another buyer (or government) will step in. So right now the purchase does not even look like it will go through.

Just to expand on what everyone already said, TRZ shares can be exchanged for AC shares at a valuation of 17.47$ per AC share. In other words buying TRZ shares is like buying an option to buy AC for 17.47$.

So the more AC goes up, the better the chances of the deal being approved by the shareholders are, as it is makes it a better deal for them.

Basically you are completely misunderstanding the market.

[Ratherbe]

Anyway it’s all contingent on the EU approval. I’m sure our former Prez will be trying to block it for the benefit of AF.

[FL320]

Anyway it’s all contingent on the EU approval. I’m sure our former Prez will be trying to block it for the benefit of AF.

EU will approve the deal as AC just submitted concessions to make it happen. At the end EU will never prevent a transaction between 2 Canadian companies. As AT shareholders will vote yes, the only one who may stop the deal at this stage is our beloved Marc Garneau (who’s busy cooking pancakes).
Your former Prez is just a muppet (doing a great job) at the top of AF who has 0 power in Brussels (and they would even be happy to kill AF if they could...).

[altiplano]

They can't not approve the deal or prevent the deal from happening, but they may say that you can not fly such and such a route, or such and such a frequency for a period of time, or other restrictions the pencil pushers may dream up, limits on codeshare or joint venture, slot divesture, etc.

[rudder]

They can't not approve the deal or prevent the deal from happening, but they may say that you can not fly such and such a route, or such and such a frequency for a period of time, or other restrictions the pencil pushers may dream up, limits on codeshare or joint venture, slot divesture, etc.

Yup.

AC is fortunate because it can propose modifications to TATL capacity that are inevitable due to COVID. It would only be in the 2023 timeframe and beyond where permanent route or frequency forfeitures would matter.

I would expect that the commercial plan going forward is to use TS capacity on former Rouge TATL routes and mainline capacity on the traditional TATL city pairs.

[altiplano]

They can't not approve the deal or prevent the deal from happening, but they may say that you can not fly such and such a route, or such and such a frequency for a period of time, or other restrictions the pencil pushers may dream up, limits on codeshare or joint venture, slot divesture, etc.

Yup.

AC is fortunate because it can propose modifications to TATL capacity that are inevitable due to COVID. It would only be in the 2023 timeframe and beyond where permanent route or frequency forfeitures would matter.

I would expect that the commercial plan going forward is to use TS capacity on former Rouge TATL routes and mainline capacity on the traditional TATL city pairs.

I expect the same. The pandemic was an aucpice to shutdown rouge and the nearly 1000 AC Pilot jobs it was and transfer all the flying to Transat. I don't doubt that was the concessions made to the EU regulator, all European and European Caribbean rouge flying forfeited to Transat.

I hope ACPA is paying attention to the implications here (not likely). 1000 AC Pilot jobs...

[rudder]

I expect the same. The pandemic was an aucpice to shutdown rouge and the nearly 1000 AC Pilot jobs it was and transfer all the flying to Transat. I don't doubt that was the concessions made to the EU regulator, all European and European Caribbean rouge flying forfeited to Transat.

I hope ACPA is paying attention to the implications here (not likely). 1000 AC Pilot jobs...

AC is putting 20 NB Airbus back in service at Rouge.

If AC adds the rumoured residual fleet of 12 TS 330’s and 15 TS 321’s and designates that integrated fleet as the LCC (assuming just 1 operating certificate), does that comply with the current Article LOU 74 fleet restrictions?

[GATRKGA]

Rouge - becomes lcc to compete with swoop
TrZ - becomes leisure
Cargo - becomes Ac new division
Ac mainline - legacy routes

Anyone see this differently?

[FL030]

Yes, I think they'll combine Rouge and Transat brand to avoid dilution.

[altiplano]

I expect the same. The pandemic was an aucpice to shutdown rouge and the nearly 1000 AC Pilot jobs it was and transfer all the flying to Transat. I don't doubt that was the concessions made to the EU regulator, all European and European Caribbean rouge flying forfeited to Transat.

I hope ACPA is paying attention to the implications here (not likely). 1000 AC Pilot jobs...

AC is putting 20 NB Airbus back in service at Rouge.

If AC adds the rumoured residual fleet of 12 TS 330’s and 15 TS 321’s and designates that integrated fleet as the LCC (assuming just 1 operating certificate), does that comply with the current Article LOU 74 fleet restrictions?

The base fleet was 50 with a max of 25 WBs, then there was growth and shrink ratios that will have to be accounted for. You'd need to see the total number of equivalent Mainline fins in operation (C-Series doesn't count as equivalent unless they pay 319 rates).

[rudder]

Rouge - becomes lcc to compete with swoop
TrZ - becomes leisure
Cargo - becomes Ac new division
Ac mainline - legacy routes

Anyone see this differently?

I had a manager suggest that there was a scenario with up to 5 operating certificates.

I thought it was preposterous. Now it seems almost imminent.

[Cappo1]

Anyway it’s all contingent on the EU approval. I’m sure our former Prez will be trying to block it for the benefit of AF.

EU will approve the deal as AC just submitted concessions to make it happen. At the end EU will never prevent a transaction between 2 Canadian companies. As AT shareholders will vote yes, the only one who may stop the deal at this stage is our beloved Marc Garneau (who’s busy cooking pancakes).
Your former Prez is just a muppet (doing a great job) at the top of AF who has 0 power in Brussels (and they would even be happy to kill AF if they could...).

If you were a nice guy I might be sympathetic to your jeuevenile tantrums. When you find time away from your video games take a look at the situation in the EU. They have every right to reject the the proposal as it stands now. Europe is crumbling and no one wants to venture there. Canadian industries are being hit harder and households cannot afford the visit the folks in the old country. If AC leaves TS as a leisure airline it might work. You will be lucky to be back on board by 2023. No guarantees for you pal. Your airline is limping along. We can chop TS up anytime we want. We have the hulls and we really don't need to use the employees.