What questions to ask and be cautious of when buying an aircraft?

[Big Pistons Forever]

As a buyer I’m much happier fixing defects myself, that way I know they’re done right.

That is an excellent point. For most defects uncovered in a pre-purchase, a price adjustment would be preferable to the seller completing the repair.

A bit off topic but your example of the leaking exhaust gasket which leads to a cylinder change is a good example of the challenge of aircraft maintenance, especially, engine and radio repair. For engines small repairs can lead to bigger ones as unanticipated faults are brought to life. A good example occurred to a fellow I know. His 1500 hr Lycoming had a failing cam shaft, a common problem on lightly used private aircraft. When the engine shop split the case they found other issues which led to a full overhaul. There was a further $ 5000 dollar upcharge because the crank shaft was found to be cracked in addition to other parts which were not repairable.

What started out to be a $7000 repair turned into a $32,000 overhaul. So yes he had a new engine but the cost of the overhaul was close to what he paid for the whole airplane the year before.....

Similarly repairs of old radios can be a death by a thousand cuts as the radio repeatedly goes to the shop for $500 - $1000 a pop repairs. Pretty soon you are not far from what a new one would cost and you still have an ancient unreliable model boat anchor in your panel.

Old transponders with cavity tubes (ie KT 76, AT50) are not worth repairing when, not if, the cavity tube fails.

[Big Pistons Forever]

As a general comment, it appears to me that the private piston GA marketplace has stratified into 2 levels.

The first is what I think are now the majority of airplanes offered for sale. They are to put it impolitely "junkers". That is they have many years of deferred maintenance and little use. In many, if not most cases the bill to bring them back to a reasonable condition is so high the purchase makes no sense and unless there is some overriding desire to own a particular airplane, like it was the one you father used to own or something like that; run away.

The other level is the opposite of the first. These are really nice airplanes either because they have always had conscientious owners or the previous owner bought a junker and dropped a ton of cash on it. These are IMO the airplanes to buy. The problem is they are not that common and when they do come up for sale they are really expensive.

However my personal opinion is that in the long term the best thing to do is buy off the top of the market.

[shaynemarshallporath]

It is wise to pull ALL cyls midtime on an engine OH cycle especially when they need it (60/80 exhaust leakage, oil fouling oil consumption ) and toss away or overhaul. Midtime may be 1200 hrs on a engine that has a 1800 hr O/H cycle recommended by the manufacture A galling lifter will grind down a cam lobe in no time as compared to a refreshed ( reground ) lifter in a mid-time engine allowing the engine to go its full life , MANY variables !

[photofly]

I don't see any need to pull a cylinder with 60/80 compression. I've been running an engine for hundreds of hours with some compressions varying between 48/80 and high 50's. The lowest compression cylinder actually went up a lot, between the last annual, and the one before. The performance is unaffected.

The advice from Continental is that if a compression measures below 40, go and run the engine, and try again. If you can't get it above 40, then it may need work.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Where a cylinder is leaking air is much more important than what the absolute value of the pressure test is. A cylinder that is 50 over 80 and all the air is coming out of the exhaust pipe is definitely worth a look inside with a boroscope to see what the exhaust valve looks like.

If all the air is coming out of the breather then carry on. Also change in DP’s is a good indicator of problems. If the cylinder was 55 last year and it is 52 this year no worries. If it was 78 last year and is now 48 then further investigation is warranted.

In any case it is always worth a second engine run and test before doing anything. You may find the problem has gone away.

[Found]

Realistically you are going to spend a MINIMUM of 6 to 8 K a year before you turn the propeller.

I feel lucky now, I have been no where near 6 K a year, to be fair I haven't needed avionics work (besides a used altimeter and a altitude encoder) or major engine work (some exhaust parts and an oil sump gasket that was a lot of labour). It is a fixed pitch prop Cessna 172 so insurance is also cheap.

We have pulled cylinders on pre-purchases and have had other shops do the same on aircraft we maintain, if done right there is nothing to worry about.

[shaynemarshallporath]

Agree fully with the last 2 posts ! If there is a large exhaust leak at 60/80 you should investigate! BUT it may only be the extra heat that causes the head of the valve to break off when there is excessive erosion of the valve stem and radius!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Realistically you are going to spend a MINIMUM of 6 to 8 K a year before you turn the propeller.

I feel lucky now, I have been no where near 6 K a year, to be fair I haven't needed avionics work (besides a used altimeter and a altitude encoder) or major engine work (some exhaust parts and an oil sump gasket that was a lot of labour). It is a fixed pitch prop Cessna 172 so insurance is also cheap.

We have pulled cylinders on pre-purchases and have had other shops do the same on aircraft we maintain, if done right there is nothing to worry about.

I should have been clearer. The 6 to 8K figure was total annual fixed costs, maintenance, insurance tiedown and miscellaneous. On top of that you would have to , of course, pay for fuel and oil when you flew. 6 K will pay for 35 hours of renting which is close to what most PPL's fly in a year. There are many good reasons to own an airplane, I should know as I own 2, but saving money is not one of them. I raised this issue of total costs of ownership because I see a lot of pilots new to aviation that don't have a good understanding of the reality of airplane ownership.

[Squaretail]

I see a lot of pilots new to aviation that don't have a good understanding of the reality of airplane ownership.

That’s not surprising, if one goes by aviation forum content, the venn diagram of pilots and “understanding reality” are two non overlapping circles.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I see a lot of pilots new to aviation that don't have a good understanding of the reality of airplane ownership.

That’s not surprising, if one goes by aviation forum content, the venn diagram of pilots and “understanding reality” are two non overlapping circles.

On the other hand you have lot's of airplane owners, my self included, that have a good understanding of reality, go ahead and own airplanes anyway. Sometimes you have to override the brain and listen to your heart

[rookiepilot]

I see a lot of pilots new to aviation that don't have a good understanding of the reality of airplane ownership.

That’s not surprising, if one goes by aviation forum content, the venn diagram of pilots and “understanding reality” are two non overlapping circles.

Then they complain how much everything costs.

Too many pilots think everyone should work for free --- except them.

[digits_]

Too many pilots think everyone should work for free --- except them.

Where do you meet those pilots? I've never encountered them.

[rookiepilot]

Too many pilots think everyone should work for free --- except them.

Where do you meet those pilots? I've never encountered them.

Try paying attention.

[digits_]

Too many pilots think everyone should work for free --- except them.

Where do you meet those pilots? I've never encountered them.

Try paying attention.

Right, so you haven't encountered them either, it just sounds cool to inject in the discussion occasionally. Got it.

[rookiepilot]

Where do you meet those pilots? I've never encountered them.

Try paying attention.

Right, so you haven't encountered them either, it just sounds cool to inject in the discussion occasionally. Got it.

Try paying attention.

[Squaretail]

Too many pilots think everyone should work for free --- except them.

Where do you meet those pilots? I've never encountered them.

Oh they are out there, maybe not as common as Rookie paints though. When times are bad they tend to go find other things to do. When the economy is booming though they come out of the woodwork, buy up little planes or come up with schemes to make those planes work. But if you want to see some of them, hang out with your local AME for the day. In my time I have had a fair amount of pilot “entrepreneurs” who are still under the impression you can be hired “just to get the hours” like the bad ol’ days. Makes $500 seem not so bad.

There is also the disappearing subset that way back when got their license for hundreds of dollars and the government refunded them $300 for it under the silly notion that they could be called up in wartime or some such nonsense. There were some of these who would rail all day at you for planes being too expensive, but as I said, these are fewer and farther between now.

More common however are the non pilots who think this way. People find out you are a pilot and be prepared to weather a rant about whatever their grievances are about air travel, which ultimately boils down to ticket prices. $99 bucks Calgary to Toronto return? Highway robbery! Which reminds me that I won’t have to weather that kind of tirade at any Christmas party this year, or use my usual tactic, when people ask, telling them you’re a plumber instead. So you don’t have to explain why it’s not cheap to fly them to Vegas in a Cessna, and that you’re not going to do it for free.

But now we are digressing a bit from the topic.

[Big Pistons Forever]

telling them you’re a plumber instead. So you don’t have to explain why it’s not cheap to fly them to Vegas in a Cessna, and that you’re not going to do it for free.

I find announcing that you are an accountant is a better way to get ride of tiresome people. Apologies to all the actual accountants out there, but that admission always seems to shut down the "what do you do" discussion. Pretty much never admit to being a pilot to strangers. That almost always ends badly.....

[rookiepilot]

telling them you’re a plumber instead. So you don’t have to explain why it’s not cheap to fly them to Vegas in a Cessna, and that you’re not going to do it for free.

I find announcing that you are an accountant is a better way to get ride of tiresome people. Apologies to all the actual accountants out there, but that admission always seems to shut down the "what do you do" discussion. Pretty much never admit to being a pilot to strangers. That almost always ends badly.....

Can't count how many times I've been asked for a free ride, tying up my whole day, or free stock tips, from people who I hardly know, and would blame me if the tip went bad.

F... Off, sincerely.

People Love to use you, given the chance.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Can't count how many times I've been asked for a free ride, tying up my whole day, or free stock tips, from people who I hardly know, and would blame me if the tip went bad.

F... Off, sincerely.

People Love to use you, given the chance.

Try working in I.T. The requests for free advice and fixes never end. I need to be quite... brash about the fact that my advice doesn't come free.

[Squaretail]

telling them you’re a plumber instead. So you don’t have to explain why it’s not cheap to fly them to Vegas in a Cessna, and that you’re not going to do it for free.

I find announcing that you are an accountant is a better way to get ride of tiresome people. Apologies to all the actual accountants out there, but that admission always seems to shut down the "what do you do" discussion. Pretty much never admit to being a pilot to strangers. That almost always ends badly.....

Be careful with that, people might call your bluff and ask advice.

The plumber disguise however has built in catch phrases and quips. They ask how work is going? “Same shit, different day!” People ask advice? Only two things you need to know to be a plumber! Need a good work story? A graphic toilet back up clears the table. Lastly if the party is particularly bad, you can fake an emergency. “Gotta go! Shit’s backing up somewhere!”

The best part? No one wants to shake your hand.

[rookiepilot]

Can't count how many times I've been asked for a free ride, tying up my whole day, or free stock tips, from people who I hardly know, and would blame me if the tip went bad.

F... Off, sincerely.

People Love to use you, given the chance.

Try working in I.T. The requests for free advice and fixes never end. I need to be quite... brash about the fact that my advice doesn't come free.

I pay one of my good friends -- very, very well -- for his spreadsheet help during my annual "accounting" season.

I pay my neighbor -- very, very well -- for the many odd repair jobs he's done for me.

Both, more than flight instructors make, that's for sure.

Happy to do both.

Contractors, I pay happily what is asked. And I'm really nice. Piss off a contractor, they won't come back. Not wise.

Stop using people, people! Want something from someone, pay up!

That includes AME's.

[Found]

Realistically you are going to spend a MINIMUM of 6 to 8 K a year before you turn the propeller.

I feel lucky now, I have been no where near 6 K a year, to be fair I haven't needed avionics work (besides a used altimeter and a altitude encoder) or major engine work (some exhaust parts and an oil sump gasket that was a lot of labour). It is a fixed pitch prop Cessna 172 so insurance is also cheap.

We have pulled cylinders on pre-purchases and have had other shops do the same on aircraft we maintain, if done right there is nothing to worry about.

I should have been clearer. The 6 to 8K figure was total annual fixed costs, maintenance, insurance tiedown and miscellaneous. On top of that you would have to , of course, pay for fuel and oil when you flew. 6 K will pay for 35 hours of renting which is close to what most PPL's fly in a year. There are many good reasons to own an airplane, I should know as I own 2, but saving money is not one of them. I raised this issue of total costs of ownership because I see a lot of pilots new to aviation that don't have a good understanding of the reality of airplane ownership.

That makes more sense, what is your insurance per year on the 172? Maybe I should start a new topic and ask others what are they paying.

[photofly]

Insurance typically runs 2 - 2.5% of hull value for the hull insurance, plus $500 for the liability insurance.

[CpnCrunch]

Insurance typically runs 2 - 2.5% of hull value for the hull insurance, plus $500 for the liability insurance.

Mine is $650 + 1.25% for the hull insurance (172 thru COPA Magnes, including open pilot clause). I could work that out because they gave me 3 quotes for 3 different hull values. That's with CPL+IR+float rating, insured in summer. The open pilot clause is pretty good: it basically just says "Any Private or more advanced pilot who is using the aircraft with the permission of the Named Insured."

I hear people saying insurance has gone up a lot recently, and quotes can vary as much as $1k or more between different brokers.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Crunch what is your total cost. My 2 seat Grumman cost $ 1305.00 with 1M liability and Hull in motion coverage for 27 K hull value