Cargo TA

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GATRKGA
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by GATRKGA »

FL-280 wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:53 am Ohh I know, we will be near the bottom don’t worry. I just want fair thats all
Me me me me me starting up again? You don’t think everyone wants fair? You really have a shit perception over the quality of the brothers and sisters joining you. Have you ever Jumpsat with ts? They’re probably the chilliest and coolest guys and gals you’ll ever have the pleasure of working with. Hence why they’re so happy all the time.

Dude, you’re reading into what executives are saying way too much. They say things they’re required to say to create a public perception in line with what ever agenda it is that the c-suite has.

One very small thing for example, ts isn’t going to come out and say everything looks rosy because about 90% of the passengers who want their refunds will be knocking on the doors. That just one concept in why a pr will be spun a certain way. There are about hundred other items on the agenda they’re mindful of.

Now, as for what transat does or doesn’t bring, I’d be careful how you perceive these guys “career choices”

Why? It seemed that anyone you spoke to at AC pre-pandemic gloated about how great rouge is. Draft, 2x, 2.5x, no reserve, young fas on layovers, etc. So by definition, the very job which was transat, ac fan boys were jumping into. Likely because it restored some glory in the job as opposed to a Heathrow layover with a crusty old crew.

Why do I bring this up? The very job that is transat, is what was started at rouge, and a large portion of you ac guys loved it. There were the ones who hated what it did to the contract and etc, but the majority loved it. So the very career choice you’re accusing ts pilots of was alike many of your own acpa siblings. So it’s good to recognize that and stop acting high and mighty. You’re not.

So now the very entity which was responsible for this great position you all rushed too (especially juniors like you fl280), is joining the house.

Now an arbitrator won’t care about any of that, but I do think you need to revisit your perspective a bit when you talk about these so called career choices.

More of those Glory positions will be available as we recover too. Likely that’s the sector which rebounds before anything else. There may appear doom and gloom right now, but that’s everywhere. Ts brings more pilots than jobs, but only in a landscape where all travel has essentially stopped. You watch, the moment we come out of this, how fast transat will grow and all I hope for you, is that you don’t lose so much sight over this nirvana over seniority, that you somehow end up on the sidelines waiting for a recall while every ts pilot is back to work. Sounds ignorant doesn’t it? Just about as ignorant as your bs about whether every ts pilot gets on property. Lol, 10 year recalls as someone said.

Now reality is that no bump or flush happens, but still, you have a lot of people who will take up spots between 3000-3500 as that’s where the relative hiring spree was at transat. So in your case, fl280, you may have to wait a bit longer to get back to work. Not because demand won’t be there for you, but because training slots will be maxed out for your 4000 Numbered position to get trained.

Every ts and ac pilot will have jobs coming out of this. Calm down man. You will retire a block holding wide body captain if that’s what you’re concerned over. Enjoy your break.
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JoeyBarton
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by JoeyBarton »

The big question here is how you consider inactive pilots. If you ratio active between themselves then same thing with inactives. That would be a fait start as TS right now brings not that much work but 500 inactive pilots. It really depends on the timing of that snapshot. Right now the most junior pilot working is around #34-3500 at ac after retirements against 100 at TS.
That should be factored in...
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Savage Poetry
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Savage Poetry »

JoeyBarton wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:03 pm The big question here is how you consider inactive pilots. If you ratio active between themselves then same thing with inactives. That would be a fait start as TS right now brings not that much work but 500 inactive pilots. It really depends on the timing of that snapshot. Right now the most junior pilot working is around #34-3500 at ac after retirements against 100 at TS.
That should be factored in...
No it shouldn't be factored in. I think TS pilots can wait and bid vacancies as they show up with their seniority. That seniority should be very close to date of hire, this pandemic is out of our control and arbitrators won't penalize us even if Air Canada pays 1$ for Transat. I have been in the industry 15 + years, 6 at Air Transat. No way I am giving up my spot to some whiny milennial hired in 2016,2017 +....
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columbia
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by columbia »

JoeyBarton wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:03 pm The big question here is how you consider inactive pilots. If you ratio active between themselves then same thing with inactives. That would be a fait start as TS right now brings not that much work but 500 inactive pilots. It really depends on the timing of that snapshot. Right now the most junior pilot working is around #34-3500 at ac after retirements against 100 at TS.
That should be factored in...
TS pilots will be out of a salary for a longer time, I think they are paying enough. Leisure won’t be dead forever, in the end we bring more work that for 100 pilots. Any arbitrator with a tiny nut of judgement will know. Plus there are other surplus on the AC side as well. We all know that all 3500 pilots right now arent flying a full block. Plus, once AC gets its taxpayer money, ( which transat would get if they’d stay alone), I think that takes the argument of layoffs off the table, because without government help, we all know AC won’t be able to employ 87% of their pilots for flying thats 20% its pre pandemic level.
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rudder
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by rudder »

Savage Poetry wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:00 pm
JoeyBarton wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:03 pm The big question here is how you consider inactive pilots. If you ratio active between themselves then same thing with inactives. That would be a fait start as TS right now brings not that much work but 500 inactive pilots. It really depends on the timing of that snapshot. Right now the most junior pilot working is around #34-3500 at ac after retirements against 100 at TS.
That should be factored in...
No it shouldn't be factored in. I think TS pilots can wait and bid vacancies as they show up with their seniority. That seniority should be very close to date of hire, this pandemic is out of our control and arbitrators won't penalize us even if Air Canada pays 1$ for Transat. I have been in the industry 15 + years, 6 at Air Transat. No way I am giving up my spot to some whiny milennial hired in 2016,2017 +....
An arbitration panel will likely factor in unprecedented circumstances in sorting out issues like ‘active vs inactive’ or who is surplus and who is not. Will also determine if there are fences on existing fleets.

What they won’t be doing is using DOH since one list is not DOH based. Whether 6 years at TS is worth more than 4 years at AC remains to be determined. The years in the industry prior to TS also count for zero. Much more likely to be a ratio (or multiple ratios) solution based on relative seniority factoring in equipment and status.

Extreme positions and chest pounding will sound great to the constituents (think Trump) but will have zero influence on the outcome (think courts).
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columbia
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by columbia »

rudder wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:14 pm
Savage Poetry wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:00 pm
JoeyBarton wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:03 pm The big question here is how you consider inactive pilots. If you ratio active between themselves then same thing with inactives. That would be a fait start as TS right now brings not that much work but 500 inactive pilots. It really depends on the timing of that snapshot. Right now the most junior pilot working is around #34-3500 at ac after retirements against 100 at TS.
That should be factored in...
No it shouldn't be factored in. I think TS pilots can wait and bid vacancies as they show up with their seniority. That seniority should be very close to date of hire, this pandemic is out of our control and arbitrators won't penalize us even if Air Canada pays 1$ for Transat. I have been in the industry 15 + years, 6 at Air Transat. No way I am giving up my spot to some whiny milennial hired in 2016,2017 +....
An arbitration panel will likely factor in unprecedented circumstances in sorting out issues like ‘active vs inactive’ or who is surplus and who is not. Will also determine if there are fences on existing fleets.

What they won’t be doing is using DOH since one list is not DOH based. Whether 6 years at TS is worth more than 4 years at AC remains to be determined. The years in the industry prior to TS also count for zero. Much more likely to be a ratio (or multiple ratios) solution based on relative seniority factoring in equipment and status.

Extreme positions and chest pounding will sound great to the constituents (think Trump) but will have zero influence on the outcome (think courts).

Yes. Just like the Keller award, 6 different ratios between captain/ FOs, AC types ... will TS pilot get some kind of penalty? Maybe. But throwing 90% of them down the toilet for extraordinary circumstances no way. Anyhow, I think the panel will use their judgement to figure it out. And as other said, working on a better contract together should be a priority. With a lot pf economic challenges and potentially high inflation rate in a couple years, the pay scale should be revised for a higher inlfation rate because 200k won’t be worth as much in 5 years for sure.
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GATRKGA
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by GATRKGA »

For all of those who think leisure is dead.

https://www.businessinsider.com/southw ... 21-2020-12

I’m sure the comment will be the us routes are different.
Yes, but the demand for leisure is not different.

We all have our opinions. Let’s see what happens.
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GATRKGA
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by GATRKGA »

columbia wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:25 pm
rudder wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:14 pm
Savage Poetry wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:00 pm

No it shouldn't be factored in. I think TS pilots can wait and bid vacancies as they show up with their seniority. That seniority should be very close to date of hire, this pandemic is out of our control and arbitrators won't penalize us even if Air Canada pays 1$ for Transat. I have been in the industry 15 + years, 6 at Air Transat. No way I am giving up my spot to some whiny milennial hired in 2016,2017 +....
An arbitration panel will likely factor in unprecedented circumstances in sorting out issues like ‘active vs inactive’ or who is surplus and who is not. Will also determine if there are fences on existing fleets.

What they won’t be doing is using DOH since one list is not DOH based. Whether 6 years at TS is worth more than 4 years at AC remains to be determined. The years in the industry prior to TS also count for zero. Much more likely to be a ratio (or multiple ratios) solution based on relative seniority factoring in equipment and status.

Extreme positions and chest pounding will sound great to the constituents (think Trump) but will have zero influence on the outcome (think courts).

Yes. Just like the Keller award, 6 different ratios between captain/ FOs, AC types ... will TS pilot get some kind of penalty? Maybe. But throwing 90% of them down the toilet for extraordinary circumstances no way. Anyhow, I think the panel will use their judgement to figure it out. And as other said, working on a better contract together should be a priority. With a lot pf economic challenges and potentially high inflation rate in a couple years, the pay scale should be revised for a higher inlfation rate because 200k won’t be worth as much in 5 years for sure.
Exactly
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LittleNelly
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by LittleNelly »

GATRKGA wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:49 pm For all of those who think leisure is dead.

https://www.businessinsider.com/southw ... 21-2020-12

I’m sure the comment will be the us routes are different.
Yes, but the demand for leisure is not different.

We all have our opinions. Let’s see what happens.

Domestic is not the same thing as transatlantic leisure.. Domestic markets everywhere in the world are projected to bounce back first as people visit friends and family or take a vacation close to home. When they say leisure they just mean people not traveling for work, not people traveling to Europe or taking package vacations.
Besides some people on here seem to forget Air Canada has a leisure arm already, it’s called Rouge(bigger than Transats operation) so any rebound in that segment also benefits air canadas capacity.

Anyway if Transat is looking healthy, all the better for everyone as the federal government would have no need to override the competition bureau thus kill this acquisition once and for all.
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Gulfstream5
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Gulfstream5 »

https://globalnews.ca/news/7518713/b-c- ... ouver/amp/


Codeshare to follow in a couple months I suspect.

This is the just the beginning.
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FL-280
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by FL-280 »

Not allowed under the ACPA CBA.... it has to be a CPA on routes wholly within Canada. You know, real scope for a solid operator....Not '' Meh should be fine, they been around for 30 years and PUJ turns seems more fun than YEG red eyes'' Once again, life is all about choices.
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altiplano
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by altiplano »

Codeshare?

Not with AC.

Maybe with Westjet, but I don't know their scope limits on that. Doesn't Pasco have a CPA deal with Westjet? What's going on with that?
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milhouse
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by milhouse »

FL-280 wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:29 am Not allowed under the ACPA CBA.... it has to be a CPA on routes wholly within Canada. You know, real scope for a solid operator....Not '' Meh should be fine, they been around for 30 years and PUJ turns seems more fun than YEG red eyes'' Once again, life is all about choices.
It amazes me how you can be such a douche despite everyone knowing your real name. I guess that's one of YOUR life choices. Have fun dealing with that one for the rest of your career. And for what? Mind blowing.
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FL-280
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by FL-280 »

milhouse wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:21 pm
FL-280 wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:29 am Not allowed under the ACPA CBA.... it has to be a CPA on routes wholly within Canada. You know, real scope for a solid operator....Not '' Meh should be fine, they been around for 30 years and PUJ turns seems more fun than YEG red eyes'' Once again, life is all about choices.
It amazes me how you can be such a douche despite everyone knowing your real name. I guess that's one of YOUR life choices. Have fun dealing with that one for the rest of your career. And for what? Mind blowing.
Whatever you say Jacob... see not many secrets in life
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milhouse
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by milhouse »

FL-280 wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:28 pm
milhouse wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:21 pm
FL-280 wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:29 am Not allowed under the ACPA CBA.... it has to be a CPA on routes wholly within Canada. You know, real scope for a solid operator....Not '' Meh should be fine, they been around for 30 years and PUJ turns seems more fun than YEG red eyes'' Once again, life is all about choices.
It amazes me how you can be such a douche despite everyone knowing your real name. I guess that's one of YOUR life choices. Have fun dealing with that one for the rest of your career. And for what? Mind blowing.
Whatever you say Jacob... see not many secrets in life
Lol who's Jacob 😂😂
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Johnny767
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Johnny767 »

CAIL actually failed, and still got ratioed

Might want to check your facts, CAIL certainly never failed. I wish nothing but the best to the Transat Pilots, but my advice would be to temper your expectations. DOH will never happen, for no other reason than AC does not have a DOH seniority list. Plus the obvious "windfall gain" of doubling your salary.

If I was King I would take the number uno Transat Pilot's salary and fit him in the AC list where he would earn the same. A huge win for the Transat Pilots.

Then build a Trump Size wall around Dorval, fencing you all in Quebec. :D

No windfall gain and no loss, pretty simple.
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DanWEC
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by DanWEC »

Johnny767 wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:56 am Plus the obvious "windfall gain" of doubling your salary.
Example please.
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Johnny767
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Johnny767 »

Simple, highest T4 earner at AC is (very) close to twice what a Transat Pilot earns - pre-Covid. If the number one Transat guy thinks he should slide in as a T7 Captain that is a massive windfall gain.

Now I understand there was a new contract just before the bottom fell out, however did anyone ever turn a wheel under those T&C's ?
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DanWEC
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by DanWEC »

600k+ T4 is the norm for 10 year AC pilots?
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Latitude
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Latitude »

DanWEC wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:02 pm 600k+ T4 is the norm for 10 year AC pilots?
:lol: he's a troll. Top pay scale at AC (on the 777) isn't even 300K, yet TS now sits at 237K. Double or triple yeah sure :lol:
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Sharklasers
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Sharklasers »

Highest paid AC line captain made 500k gross in 2018.
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altiplano
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by altiplano »

Latitude wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:18 pm
DanWEC wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:02 pm 600k+ T4 is the norm for 10 year AC pilots?
:lol: he's a troll. Top pay scale at AC (on the 777) isn't even 300K, yet TS now sits at 237K. Double or triple yeah sure :lol:
AC pay scale isn't annual, but I don't think there are any WB CAs that did under $300K last year and NB guys all do 200+ easily, and most over your 237 number. Most WB FOs are in the 200+ range too. You have the guys that really work it... draft hogs etc. and I'm sure there is some guy somewhere in the company that hit or pushed $500K, but that's not the norm.

Good luck.
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altiplano
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by altiplano »

sharklaser beat me to it... there you go. There are a few up there for sure.
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FL320
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by FL320 »

altiplano wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:45 pm
Latitude wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:18 pm
DanWEC wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:02 pm 600k+ T4 is the norm for 10 year AC pilots?
:lol: he's a troll. Top pay scale at AC (on the 777) isn't even 300K, yet TS now sits at 237K. Double or triple yeah sure :lol:
AC pay scale isn't annual, but I don't think there are any WB CAs that did under $300K last year and NB guys all do 200+ easily, and most over your 237 number. Most WB FOs are in the 200+ range too. You have the guys that really work it... draft hogs etc. and I'm sure there is some guy somewhere in the company that hit or pushed $500K, but that's not the norm.

Good luck.
....it’s the same at Transat...237k is the mini guaranteed per annum....but we have guys making 400k. Some of us made good money as your colleagues at Rouge, extra drafts but still having 18 days off per month...unfortunately it won’t happen again in the near future :D
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JoeyBarton
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by JoeyBarton »

Come TS get your facts straight. You know the payscales at AC are better using guaranteed minimums..At least recognize that...
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