Practice approaches while vfr

[ghazanhaider]

Before officially training for IFR I’d like to practice and read some. I’ve been doing holds around custom waypoints.

It seems like one can do practice approaches while VFR. Most of the YouTube videos are American and show American rules for the safety pilot etc.

What are the rules in Canada for this?

Can I fly to say CYXU on a vfr flight itinerary and ask for a practice approach, missed and a hold, then leave? Or should it be part of a VFR flight plan?

The IPM explains the radio phraseology but I haven’t found. Anything on practice approaches and rules for a safety pilot. Can I do practice approaches even without a px if I don’t have the hood on and can look out?

And can I do a practice rnav approach at a nontowered field? If yes, should I notify the ACC in addition to the Unicom?

[photofly]

Before officially training for IFR I’d like to practice and read some. I’ve been doing holds around custom waypoints.

It seems like one can do practice approaches while VFR. Most of the YouTube videos are American and show American rules for the safety pilot etc.

What are the rules in Canada for this?

If you're VFR, you can do whatever you want, but if in a control zone you need a clearance from (class C) or contact with (class D) the tower.

Can I fly to say CYXU on a vfr flight itinerary and ask for a practice approach, missed and a hold, then leave?

Yes.

Or should it be part of a VFR flight plan?

You can't put approaches on a VFR flight plan. A VFR flight plan should be filed per the usual rules. Nobody reads it until after your ETA (if it's not closed) so nothing you write on it in terms of approaches will make any difference to anyone.

Can I do practice approaches even without a px if I don’t have the hood on and can look out?

If you don't have a hood on, you can do whatever you want, with, or without passengers, assuming you're otherwise licenced to fly the airplane. If you have a hood on in VMC you need a safety observer, whether you are on a VFR flight plan, IFR flight plan, flight intinerary, or no flight plan at all.

And can I do a practice rnav approach at a nontowered field?

Yes.

If yes, should I notify the ACC in addition to the Unicom?

If you are conducting your flight under the VFR then the ACC doesn't care what you do. If you are, at your own option, receiving a radar service then you need to remain in contact with the ACC, and if you advise them of your intentions to conduct a simulated approach that would be courteous. Closer to the airfield good practice would be to terminate your radar service and switch to the Unicom frequency.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Gazanhander

You note that you have not started your IFR training. I do not recommend that you "practice" something you have not been taught.

IMO the principal weakness for pilots starting IFR training is that they can't fly the aircraft with an acceptable degree of accuracy.

The best thing you can do is get a safety pilot, put on an hood and practice basic IF flying. For example in a C 172

Start with 3000 ft straight and level at 100kts heading 035. Then a climbing right turn to 4200 feet and a heading of 265 rolling level on course with the speed at 80 kts. Then a left descending turn to 065 and 1900 ft with a 500 ft/min descent accelerating to 120 knots, while holding the same rate of descent.

Tolerances are plus minus 2 kts, 20 ft of altitude, and 50 ft/min

I guarantee if you can fly the aircraft to those tolerances you will have absolutely no trouble with the rating

[Blowin' In The Wind]

Gazanhander

You note that you have not started your IFR training. I do not recommend that you "practice" something you have not been taught.

As someone who’s current role involves a lot of teaching IFR, I strongly agree with this statement.

All the best in your training.

[photofly]

Why does this thread smell like a tonne of stinky shit just got dumped all over the OP's enthusiasm for flying?

[Blowin' In The Wind]

My comment in no way was meant to dissuade his passion for flying, but rather practical advice in order to save himself money on his training. Very common to have students who’ve tried to self-teach to acquire bad habits, and that often adds cost to their training in the form of time spent trying to unlearn something.

If he/she makes the decision that it’s a risk they’re willing to take, then by all means! ATC will likely be happy to oblige if you ask for simulated approaches while VFR.

[EasyTarget]

It didn't come across that way at all. It sounded more like a couple people with experience in the IFR/Training environment passing on information to succeed as opposed to setting yourself up for failure. It's one thing to be flying in VFR conditions thinking you're "practicing", but you can't teach yourself this stuff.

A lot of the same things the OP wants to accomplish could be done on a home computer flight simulator with the appropriate controls. Although this time can't be counted towards the rating, you can at least work on basic coordinated flight and shoot approaches to your hearts desire with no fear of breaching controlled airspace. The radio work on the IFR side is a world unto itself. You also get the benefit of putting yourself in the soup to minimums.

[photofly]

A lot of the same things the OP wants to accomplish could be done on a home computer flight simulator with the appropriate controls.

If it's not ok to "practice" in a real airplane, why does it become OK to do it on a computer?

fear of breaching controlled airspace.

Hummanahhummanawhat? What's a breach of controlled airspace when it's at home?

The radio work on the IFR side is a world unto itself.

He doesn't want to practice IFR, he wants to practice under VFR. It still reeks in here.

[digits_]

Why does this thread smell like a tonne of stinky shit just got dumped all over the OP's enthusiasm for flying?

You don't find it appropriate people warn against flying a 'simulated' ifr approach -albeit in VMC- if you've never flown one?

It doesn't take much to become overloaded, distracted and focused on the instruments, followed by some stupid mistakes that could result in big trouble.

In the end it's up to the OP, but I also question the benefit of doing this. There are other ways to nurture the enthusiasm for flying. Or to train IFR more effectively.

[photofly]

I trust that a trained pilot who is interested enough in instrument flying to want to go and do some practice hood work in good weather has enough good sense not to "become overloaded, distracted and focused on the instruments, followed by some stupid mistakes", and will be able to keep himself out of "big trouble".

At some point the constant nannying has to stop.

[telex]

I trust that a trained pilot who is interested enough in instrument flying to want to go and do some practice hood work in good weather has enough good sense not to "become overloaded, distracted and focused on the instruments, followed by some stupid mistakes", and will be able to keep himself out of "big trouble".

At some point the constant nannying has to stop.

Would you believe that highly trained, multi-crew, instrument rated pilots have on occasion "become overloaded, distracted and focused on the instruments, followed by some stupid mistakes"?

Your opinion that self taught IFR is a good idea is bizarre.

[Big Pistons Forever]

At some point the constant nannying has to stop.

What you call constant nannying was intended to simply be an observation based on my experience training 16 pilots for the IFR rating. Based on that experience I suggested the premise of the OP's thread was miss-guided. Instead of practicing IFR approaches before starting his or her IFR training I suggest a better way to use the air time to prepare for the training. Unlike flying IFR approaches they will have received training in basic IFR flying and can refine that vital foundation skill on their own. I am struggling to see how anyone would find my commentary offensive.

Finally I have 2 questions for you:

1) If the OP came to you and asked those questions would you encourage them to go and practice IFR procedures prior to starting IF training ?, and

2) How many pilots have you trained for the IFR rating ?

[photofly]

I encourage every licenced pilot to bomb around in good weather and see what they can do with an airplane at their disposal. If they want to do it under the hood, take a safety observer. If it floats someone's boat to go and figure out holding patterns, or how to operate their GPS, or what an ILS looks like, I absolutely encourage it, because it means getting up in the air more.

The OP didn't ask how to shorten his IFR training, or what suitable tolerances for personal skill at instrument flying before/during/after beginning that training should be, or how to use a flight simulator on his computer, or to be warned about the dangers of getting into "big trouble" (WOOO! WOOO!) - he asked about not breaking any rules while going to play in an airplane with that licence on which he spent all that money. Good for him. He should totally go and screw up some holding patterns, and approaches. Why the f*ck not? Just try not to invert the plane, and if you do, wipe the oil off the belly before you give it back to the owner, mkay?

Too many stuffed shirts (and wannabe stuffed shirts) take all the joy out of getting up in the air. Good for him for wanting to go and do some stuff.

[rookiepilot]

Before I started my IFR, I had the opportunity to fly a PA 32 -- without a right side AI I might add -- a few hours from the right seat, in broken IMC cruise flight with the (gracious) owner who invested in me during a trip we took together.

This was a challenge, but combined with some flight sim time, it really helped when it came time to start my training in a 172 seated this time, with an AI right in front of me.

[Big Pistons Forever]

. He should totally go and screw up some holding patterns, and approaches. Why the f*ck not? Just try not to invert the plane, and if you do, wipe the oil off the belly before you give it back to the owner, mkay?

Because his/her instructor will have to go and unf*ck the IFR procedures listed instead of just simply training them the right way the first time. I also noticed you declined to answer my question No 2. I am guessing that would be because the number is zero....

Too many stuffed shirts (and wannabe stuffed shirts) take all the joy out of getting up in the air. Good for him for wanting to go and do some stuff.

I have been called many things in my flying career but I think you are the first one to call me a "stuffed shirt". I will take that as a compliment

[photofly]

Why do you care what his instructor will or won't have to do? If the guy wants to fly, we should encourage him, not tell him to stay home with his computer. And we wonder why GA is dying.

[photofly]

Would you believe that highly trained, multi-crew, instrument rated pilots have on occasion "become overloaded, distracted and focused on the instruments, followed by some stupid mistakes"?

I would believe that. Luckily, the OP isn't one of those, so I trust he will be able to avoid making those mistakes.

Your opinion that self taught IFR is a good idea is bizarre.

It's possible that if your "highly trained, multi-crew, instrument rated pilots" strapped on a hood and went and flew around in VMC a bit more often, when if they get the wobbles they can look out of the window and see the ground at their leisure, they'd not fall prey to those stupid mistakes.

Your opinion that getting more hood time is a bad idea, is bizzare.

[digits_]

Photofly, you're quite the enigma sometimes

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have noticed that photofly seems to have a reluctance to acknowledge that sometimes on further reflection his assertions could profit from some additional review and an acknowledgment that others may have valid points.....

[telex]

I have noticed that photofly seems to have a reluctance to acknowledge that sometimes on further reflection his assertions could profit from some additional review and an acknowledgment that others may have valid points.....

He's in too deep now. He could reflect and recant his position or he can continue further down his path of self destructive behavior.

I think I know which way he will go...

[telex]

Would you believe that highly trained, multi-crew, instrument rated pilots have on occasion "become overloaded, distracted and focused on the instruments, followed by some stupid mistakes"?

I would believe that. Luckily, the OP isn't one of those, so I trust he will be able to avoid making those mistakes.

Your opinion that self taught IFR is a good idea is bizarre.

It's possible that if your "highly trained, multi-crew, instrument rated pilots" strapped on a hood and went and flew around in VMC a bit more often, when if they get the wobbles they can look out of the window and see the ground at their leisure, they'd not fall prey to those stupid mistakes.

Your opinion that getting more hood time is a bad idea, is bizzare.

My opinion of self taught IFR remains unchanged, it's a bad idea.

How did you come to your opinion of my bizarre opinion of more hood time?

Are you discussing a parallel topic? Self taught IFR and more hood time are not the same.

But you already know that.

Remember this from the old days?

"(b) PRIMACY - Present new knowledge or skills correctly the first time. (Teach it right the first time.)"

How can one teach themself IFR if they don't know IFR?

[photofly]

[telex]

You must have taught yourself to draw!

[photofly]

You're all so busy looking at the wood ("don't go anywhere near an airplane without adult supervision in case you do something a tiny bit wrong and you're ruined for life") that you're not seeing the trees: someone who wants to go and enjoy trying something new. If it works out for him, great, if it doesn't, there'll be an instructor along soon.

"(b) PRIMACY - Present new knowledge or skills correctly the first time. (Teach it right the first time.)"

I'm sorry, but @#$! that. Also written by stuffed shirt who completely missed the zero'th law of learning: "Make it fun!" I cannot conceive of a more dreary and tedious book about learning to fly than the FIG. It's worse than reading the telephone directory.

We learn by making mistakes. All we have to do is not kill ourselves in the process, and the OP isn't going to die flying a simulated ILS in CAVOK. Everything else he can fix or be taught later, I promise you.

Sometimes I want to strangle people on here with the miasma of total joylessness you all create. You're all so wretchedly worthy you suck all the fun out of absolutely anything, Do you ever actually just enjoy flying, or does it have to be within 15 feet of altitude and "roll out exactly on heading" every single fucking time you fly? Is the only safe and approved place to do anything on your own on your computer in the basement? Must everyone have on pain of death to be stopped from doing anything at all unless they follow your prescriptive recipes?

Gotta go bathe the kids now. Probably just as well.

[telex]

You're all so busy looking at the wood ("don't go anywhere near an airplane without adult supervision in case you do something a tiny bit wrong and you're ruined for life") that you're not seeing the trees: someone who wants to go and enjoy trying something new. If it works out for him, great, if it doesn't, there'll be an instructor along soon.

"(b) PRIMACY - Present new knowledge or skills correctly the first time. (Teach it right the first time.)"

I'm sorry, but @#$! that. Also written by stuffed shirt who completely missed the zero'th law of learning: "Make it fun!"

We learn by making mistakes. All we have to do is not kill ourselves in the process, and the OP isn't going to die flying a simulated ILS in CAVOK. Everything else he can fix or be taught later, I promise you.

Sometimes I want to strangle people on here with the miasma of total joylessness you all create. You're all so wretchedly worthy you suck all the fun out of absolutely anything, Do you ever actually just enjoy flying, or does it have to be within 15 feet of altitude and "roll out exactly on heading" every single fucking time you fly? Is the only safe and approved place to do anything on your own on your computer in the basement? Must everyone have on pain of death to be stopped from doing anything at all unless they follow your prescriptive recipes?

Gotta go bathe the kids now. Probably just as well.

How many IFR students did you say you taught?