More WJ layoffs

[WestJet Puke]

Hot Wings, you pull your head out of your ass yet? #NotEnoughVaccine
At the current vaccination rate here in Canada, it will be 2034 before all Canadians are vaccinated, never mind the current rate of mutation! Good luck everyone!

So you think there will be more WJ layoffs?

This is my personal opinion and my personal opinion alone.....amongst the WJ pilot group I don't think there will be any more layoffs. Other employee groups....who knows.

I think ONEX is just hanging on, hoping for the vaccine to be distributed and for things to get back to normal. They have cut literally thousands of WJ jobs, be it management, other hq positions, flight ops, inflight, ramp, etc, to the point where there literally isn't much fat left to cut. Amongst the pilot ranks, I believe we have ~406 layoffs between WJ, Encore and Swoop. If they start cutting from the bottom of the WJ list, essentially you are going to trigger displacements into Encore, which will cause a $$$ignificant training bill, plus by the time people get downgraded, it probably will be time to bring them back to their previous position. You could theoretically cut from Encore, but I've seen them using Encore airplanes quite aggressively, covering routes the B737 would normally do as the aircraft aren't anywhere near capacity and at least a Q400 is losing less money. Also, my feeling is that they want to be ready to ramp up quickly, because minus the recent Pfizer vaccine hiccups, if this thing gets distributed the way we are being told it is (to the point where everyone who wants one will have one by September), supposedly demand will spike and we want to be ready. Our CEO described us a few months back as a company in hibernation, which strikes me as about right.

All the above is based on the assumption that the various vaccines are effective, and get distributed across our country on a mass scale by the summer. If there are hiccups in the process, all bets are off.

[thenoflyzone]

So yes, there will be business travel returning, but it will never be to the levels it was at. Same with regular commercial travel. Not for a long long while will it.

Traffic will return. It's a matter of when, not if.

Traffic in/out of Canada is mostly leisure/VFR anyway. Not much business traffic out of Canada, especially when you compare us to Western European nations or the US. So yes, traffic will get back to 2019 levels eventually, but the numbers will simply skew more heavily toward leisure/VFR travel than before. The little business traffic Canada had in the first place will become even smaller. That is all. Routes that aren't profitable because of this wont be flown, but other opportunities will open up.

More cramped seats/less service will because the norm, even moreso than before. Sadly, WS were late to the game, with their long haul ambitions. They went the wrong way, purchasing those dreamliners and installing premium cabins. They will need to reconfigure those bad boys with 400Y seats in order to make money with them in the future.

[brooks]

They have the booking numbers for the fall when we should be fully emerging from this pandemic. If they want to hold a reduction bid that won't be a good sign. I remain optimistic that travel will return quite quickly. Think of all those TikTokers and Instagramers who who need to travel to get them likes.

As for the 787 I doubt they will change the config. If people can upgrade to premium for $79 they will. AC put 4 rows of Busz class in their Max's and WJ only has 3 rows so maybe that will pay off down the road. The long haul ambitions have lots of growth with a plane you can easily fill and fly either to Toronto or filler up and fly for 16 hours.

[tsgas]

They have the booking numbers for the fall when we should be fully emerging from this pandemic. If they want to hold a reduction bid that won't be a good sign. I remain optimistic that travel will return quite quickly. Think of all those TikTokers and Instagramers who who need to travel to get them likes.

As for the 787 I doubt they will change the config. If people can upgrade to premium for $79 they will. AC put 4 rows of Busz class in their Max's and WJ only has 3 rows so maybe that will pay off down the road. The long haul ambitions have lots of growth with a plane you can easily fill and fly either to Toronto or filler up and fly for 16 hours.

It will take time for the traffic to spool up to pre Covid levels and Flair adding 13 B 737- Max's will only lower the load factors, and or reduce the yields.

[pacman007]

Hmm, if WestJet lays off pilots they will
Just hand flair 737 max rated pilots. Doesn’t sound like a good idea to me

[tsgas]

Hmm, if WestJet lays off pilots they will
Just hand flair 737 max rated pilots. Doesn’t sound like a good idea to me

Newsflash !! Airlines around the World have laid off thousands of pilots . The Puppy Mill hype about the Global Pilot shortage is BS.

[tbaylx]

Hmm, if WestJet lays off pilots they will
Just hand flair 737 max rated pilots. Doesn’t sound like a good idea to me

We don't require type rated pilots. Besides any furloughed Westjet pilots require the new Max sim training and they aren't current within 6 months therefore PPC's can't be ported so would require sim training to regain currency. Their SOP's are also significantly different from ours and they would need "deprogramming" which would also add to the sim time required.

If we were to go after type rated pilots a Sunwing pilot would be a much better fit for us.

[Galaxy]

If we were to go after type rated pilots a Sunwing pilot would be a much better fit for us.

Why? Are Sunwing pilots programmed better?

[airway]

We don't require type rated pilots. Besides any furloughed Westjet pilots require the new Max sim training and they aren't current within 6 months therefore PPC's can't be ported so would require sim training to regain currency. Their SOP's are also significantly different from ours and they would need "deprogramming" which would also add to the sim time required.

If we were to go after type rated pilots a Sunwing pilot would be a much better fit for us.

As long as an initial course is not required (In my company that's 2 years), A Max rated pilot, current or not, would likely require half the training (or less) than a non rated pilot. I would be surprised if Flair didn't consider that a major plus.

For any half decent pilot, with a Max rating, " deprogramming" should be a non issue. Yes, there might be one or two with a problem, but I don't think it is widespread.





.

[Sharklasers]

As long as an initial course is not required (In my company that's 2 years), A Max rated pilot, current or not, would likely require half the training (or less) than a non rated pilot. I would be surprised if Flair didn't consider that a major plus.

For any half decent pilot, with a Max rating, " deprogramming" should be a non issue. Yes, there might be one or two with a problem, but I don't think it is widespread.

I think you guys are missing the point here.

Tbaylx is pulling the hiring strings at Flair and from his perspective WestJet pilots are useless knobs and bullies for how they treated him when he was scabbing over at Swoop during the start up as the most vocal and unapologetic member of the dirty 30.

Tbaylx doesn’t want to hire Westjet pilots and can colour it in whatever light he wants, as is his right and privilege as Flair management. It’s not like he has a shortage of qualified 737 candidates to choose from.

[tsgas]

As long as an initial course is not required (In my company that's 2 years), A Max rated pilot, current or not, would likely require half the training (or less) than a non rated pilot. I would be surprised if Flair didn't consider that a major plus.

For any half decent pilot, with a Max rating, " deprogramming" should be a non issue. Yes, there might be one or two with a problem, but I don't think it is widespread.

I think you guys are missing the point here.

Tbaylx is pulling the hiring strings at Flair and from his perspective WestJet pilots are useless knobs and bullies for how they treated him when he was scabbing over at Swoop during the start up as the most vocal and unapologetic member of the dirty 30.

Tbaylx doesn’t want to hire Westjet pilots and can colour it in whatever light he wants, as is his right and privilege as Flair management. It’s not like he has a shortage of qualified 737 candidates to choose from.

So true. He will have the pick of the litter.

[pelmet]

Now I see what he meant by this post in this thread....

viewtopic.php?p=1133716#p1133716

There is an old saying...."be careful whose toes you step on, they may be attached to the ass you need to kiss someday."

[ALPApolicy]

It was told to me for years by my buddy at Sunwing that WJ was operating the NG’s as if it was a 200 in terms of the SOP’s. I scoffed. Then I did my SIM EVAL for a Xiamen Airlines. Of the group of four (Flair, Miami Air, and another guy from somewhere I can’t remember) of us, I was the lone pilot that needed to be de-programmed in order to operate the aircraft according to Boeing (and Xiamen) SOP’s.

Tbay, is right. If he hired a class full of WJers, they’d be continually saying, “That’s not how we did it at WJ.”

Anyway, this is a relatively free country. We all make choices and live with the consequences. And then we die.

John S.

[jjj]

Yep TBAYLX can run Flair as he chooses.

Yep - usually a bad idea to hire in big groups from other airlines. There was a time when WS had to meter how many ex-C3 types were in a class because it was causing problems.

I’m aware that WS has some dinosaur SOPs. Not a big deal. What is a big deal is that they are followed. You’ll burst a vessel trying to figure out the best way to do something. What trumps the best way of doing something is universal buy-in to doing things a common way.

That was a problem at SWOOP in its infancy. Lots of OTS pilots with wonderful ideas. Next thing you know common practice was a rotating set of 10 different ways of doing business. Glad nothing got bent.

SOPs aside - WS (prior to pandemic) was upgrading excellent Captains. 10 years on type and a huge area of operations. Aside from some dinosaur SOPs, these are strong candidates that can make meaningful contributions to another airline.

[tbaylx]

As long as an initial course is not required (In my company that's 2 years), A Max rated pilot, current or not, would likely require half the training (or less) than a non rated pilot. I would be surprised if Flair didn't consider that a major plus.

For any half decent pilot, with a Max rating, " deprogramming" should be a non issue. Yes, there might be one or two with a problem, but I don't think it is widespread.

I think you guys are missing the point here.

Tbaylx is pulling the hiring strings at Flair and from his perspective WestJet pilots are useless knobs and bullies for how they treated him when he was scabbing over at Swoop during the start up as the most vocal and unapologetic member of the dirty 30.

Tbaylx doesn’t want to hire Westjet pilots and can colour it in whatever light he wants, as is his right and privilege as Flair management. It’s not like he has a shortage of qualified 737 candidates to choose from.

Interesting perspective. Maybe we should have a "blacklist"

Except i'm not very involved with the hiring, we're more professional than that and we interviewed and hired at least a couple of ex westjetters. We aren't prioritizing 737 type ratings either, we'd rather have people that fit in but there certainly isn't any shortage of qualified candidates.

[ALPApolicy]

I’m tossing around the idea of applying, but first I’d like to know if Flair has Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion training, or a similar committee for the pilots?

[Freeport_Flyer]

I’m tossing around the idea of applying, but first I’d like to know if Flair has Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion training, or a similar committee for the pilots?

That's a good question for the Flair thread...

Any news on when negotiations / meetings will take place for the coming end of the MOA (ends March 31)?

[Flairpilot]

The mou expires feb 28.

[pelmet]

I’m tossing around the idea of applying, but first I’d like to know if Flair has Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion training, or a similar committee for the pilots?

I think all federally regulated companies have certain goals to work toward. Flair would be no different.

[ALPApolicy]

I’m tossing around the idea of applying, but first I’d like to know if Flair has Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion training, or a similar committee for the pilots?

I think all federally regulated companies have certain goals to work toward. Flair would be no different.

You think or you know? A link would be nice. It's the first I have heard of the federal government regulating social matters not related to safety.

[Freeport_Flyer]

I’m tossing around the idea of applying, but first I’d like to know if Flair has Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion training, or a similar committee for the pilots?

I think all federally regulated companies have certain goals to work toward. Flair would be no different.

You think or you know? A link would be nice. It's the first I have heard of the federal government regulating social matters not related to safety.

Yes... But how does Flair's diversity stance relate to "More WJ layoffs"?

Just trying to stick handle the thread drift... The Flair thread in the 705 section is a good place to talk about what they do or don't do...

[Longtimer]

Sadly re the layoffs, I wonder how many were also owners who were happy to sell their shares? Would it have been different if WestJet had stayed a public company or not? I guess we will never know.

[tsgas]

Sadly re the layoffs, I wonder how many were also owners who were happy to sell their shares? Would it have been different if WestJet had stayed a public company or not? I guess we will never know.

" Could of , should of , would of". In the words of Hillary Clinton " at this point what difference does it make".

[cloak]

Likely being a public company now would have worked out worse with share prices very low making WJ a target of (hostile?) take overs. It is difficult to speculate about more lay-offs, but this late in the game, likely both sides want to “exercise patience” a little longer until meaningful recovery begins, which is why pilots/planes ratio is probably too high as it is.

Speaking of recovery, of course it was poor governance to entrust it on an autocratic Communist regime that hid the pandemic as long as it could. And what use are 400 million vaccine doses a year from now?! If a CEO handled a crisis so poorly, he would definitely be replaced. Issuing stricter travel advisories after a year only shows poor preparedness.

[bobcaygeon]

Likely being a public company now would have worked out worse with share prices very low making WJ a target of (hostile?) take overs. It is difficult to speculate about more lay-offs, but this late in the game, likely both sides want to “exercise patience” a little longer until meaningful recovery begins, which is why pilots/planes ratio is probably too high as it is.

Speaking of recovery, of course it was poor governance to entrust it on an autocratic Communist regime that hid the pandemic as long as it could. And what use are 400 million vaccine doses a year from now?! If a CEO handled a crisis so poorly, he would definitely be replaced. Issuing stricter travel advisories after a year only shows poor preparedness.

I'd say it could be better. They could access the market for cash like AC is doing right now.