Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

[Sharklasers]

This is not a merger and there will be no need for “precedent” in deciding the seniority list.

Just like the GGN thing it will go to a pilot vote. It’s up the company to convince the Jazz pilots to vote for it.

Chorus is really going to want this to go through though so hopefully they dig deep.

[dhc#]

Anyone else get the feeling junior Jazz pilots are about to lose a lot ?

[47north]

Anyone else get the feeling junior Jazz pilots are about to lose a lot ?

I would expect fences and recall rights to be a big part of any ALPA agreement. Lots of ways to protect Jazz pilots for a few years until the industry recovers fully.

Let ALPA do their work. The people involved have done this before.

[airway]

This is not a merger and there will be no need for “precedent” in deciding the seniority list.

Just like the GGN thing it will go to a pilot vote. It’s up the company to convince the Jazz pilots to vote for it.

Chorus is really going to want this to go through though so hopefully they dig deep.

Transfer/takeover/merger. What do you want to call it? Does it matter?

There was no vote for the GGN merger. The union is not required to conduct a vote if they don't think it is necessary.
We don't know yet if the union will think it necessary to have a vote for this transfer/takeover/merger.


.

[Sharklasers]

This is not a merger and there will be no need for “precedent” in deciding the seniority list.

Just like the GGN thing it will go to a pilot vote. It’s up the company to convince the Jazz pilots to vote for it.

Chorus is really going to want this to go through though so hopefully they dig deep.

Transfer/takeover/merger. What do you want to call it? Does it matter?

There was no vote for the GGN merger. The union is not required to conduct a vote if they don't think it is necessary.
We don't know yet if the union will think it necessary to have a vote for this transfer/takeover/merger.

You are a fountain of misinformation today. There absolutely was a vote on the GGN issue.

https://aviationtribune.com/airlines/no ... expansion/


.]

[airway]

This is not a merger and there will be no need for “precedent” in deciding the seniority list.

Just like the GGN thing it will go to a pilot vote. It’s up the company to convince the Jazz pilots to vote for it.

Chorus is really going to want this to go through though so hopefully they dig deep.

Transfer/takeover/merger. What do you want to call it? Does it matter?

There was no vote for the GGN merger. The union is not required to conduct a vote if they don't think it is necessary.
We don't know yet if the union will think it necessary to have a vote for this transfer/takeover/merger.

You are a fountain of misinformation today. There absolutely was a vote on the GGN issue.

https://aviationtribune.com/airlines/no ... expansion/


.]

I get one thing wrong and I am "fountain of misinformation"
I forgot that was a part of that agreement.

[Sharklasers]

References to mergers and precedents are also wrong.
Precedents apply to arbitration’s and courts of law,
This deal will end up in neither of those places good old fashioned bargaining will settle this or it won’t.

[ToolShed]

There’s going to be winners and losers in any consolidation and I don’t see why the Jazz pilots have to volunteer to be the losers unless there are major tangible gains to their 17 year contract

Bingo.

You can either play or get played. Did anybody notice some of the broader gains that ACPA achieved in the 767 cargo MOA?

Better RSV rules. Better RSV pay guarantee.

You on RSV at AC?
Lets make that call on month two or three of Best Fit.

[Kosiw]

Will be interesting to see what AC has in mind for the regional routes that were operated by the previously retired-100s and now the -300s being retired this year.

[rudder]

The major difference between this merger and the GGN merger is that Jazz is getting 25 jet aircraft and the pilots. Not just the pilots as in the GGN merger. Jazz is also losing 19 DH8 300's, for a difference of only 6 extra tails (approximately 60 extra pilots actually needed). Also, I suspect that The SKY pilots on average have more years of service than the GGN pilots, and there is more of them.

From crewroom talk, I hear that The CRJ 900 is more efficient to operate than the E175, so they may just keep the E175 parked for a while. Passengers may not be happy about this. Apparently they prefer the E175. This would also give JAZZ time to train JAZZ pilots on the E175, and the SKY pilots would also need some refresher. Also, JAZZ has a 200 hour green on green policy that prohibits 2 new pilots on the aircraft flying together.

Of course this will depend on the merger agreement.

The precedent has been set. I'm pretty sure this will be DOH. Possibly with temporary fences that will help the the green on green issue as well. I also suspect JAZZ will use the E175 Chief Pilots and Training pilots from SKY for the start up.

In the GGN transaction, Jazz added net 5 CRJ200’s (4 of the 9 transferred went to the desert) with an associated liability to add over 200 GGN pilots on a DOH basis. Ultimately, approximately 120 GGN pilots chose to go to Jazz with the balance for the most part having gone to AC. In accordance with the transaction, CHR increased and extended its minimum fleet guarantees with AC.

This Skyregional transaction is more akin to 1 + 1 = <2. This is the same math that will result if the TRZ transaction with AC is consummated. Combined workforce with shrunken fleet.

Currently, over 80% of the Skyregional pilots are on lay-off (or will be as of March 15). Jazz has 40% of its own pilots on lay-off/CEWS.

On paper, the 25 175’s get moved to Jazz May 01st. And an obligation to add 283 Skyregional pilots. How many of the 175’s are currently in service? How many will be in service by year end 2021? How many will be in service in 2022? When do the 10 175 leases expire? Will AC permanently park some or all of the 15 owned 175’s over time? What about the factory new Jazz CRJ900’s that are sitting in YHZ that AC is paying for?

I agree that somewhere out the far end of this the 175 fleet will probably no longer exist at Express. CRJ900’s only. Get rid of the EMB sim in the AC wing of CAE. Get rid of all the spare EMB parts on the shelf. Pitch all of the EMB manuals. But there will still be 283 Skyregional pilots on the Jazz seniority list (minus age 65 and flow to AC).

Ultimately, this will turn out to be just another chapter in the book. Between 2022-2025 there will be more fleet changes at Express. This is just the deal agreed between AC and CHR to get them over the COVID hump.

Looking forward to see what ALPA has to say since it is suggested they have the right to flush the whole transaction.

[Malfunction]

Q400s can do the 300's flying no problem

[BingBong]

Q400s can do the 300's flying no problem

Just because they physically CAN doesn't mean they economically would. Will be interesting to see what the future route structure will look like.

[dhc#]

Q400s can do the 300's flying no problem

Just because they physically CAN doesn't mean they economically would. Will be interesting to see what the future route structure will look like.

Oppurtunities for a Tier 3 type setup again...the more things change...

[Inverted2]

I believe there was language in the last contract that if there is any tier 3 work then Jazz has first chance to bid on doing any of it although I’m sure there are ways around that.

[throwaway123]

There’s going to be winners and losers in any consolidation and I don’t see why the Jazz pilots have to volunteer to be the losers unless there are major tangible gains to their 17 year contract

Bingo.

You can either play or get played. Did anybody notice some of the broader gains that ACPA achieved in the 767 cargo MOA?

Better RSV rules. Better RSV pay guarantee.

Better annual pay guarantees.

Better A220 pay rates.

Quid pro quo is a two way dialogue.

None of those "gains" if you can call them that, had anything to do with the cargo MOA.

[throwaway123]

Good thing you guys didn’t sign a super long collect agreement with concessions in order to stay competitive against sky/Georgian .... oh wait

Well, considering the GOAL was to make us competitive enough to get any new work and regain old work, I guess we could argue goal accomplished!
Laugh all you want but I’m guessing you’ll be enjoying a position at Swoop in the not to distant future or at least some of your colleagues will, try not to cast stones.
What remains to be seen is what type of concessions are they after to push this through?
What’s the threat of not coming to an agreement?
What are the terms for integration of the pilot group?
If GGN is used as an example, DOH and no fences, so if you could not hold your seat, you bid what you could.

I doubt there will be even one concession.

[Terry_Flaps]

AC cancelled Sky's CPA as of March 31. If this comes to vote, as it did with GGN in Feb 2019, what happens if Jazz pilots say no? Is the cancellation dependent on all parties agreeing on this Jazz, ALPA, AC or is sky dead in the ditch no matter what happens.

The Q400 defs can't get into some places the Dash can. Balanced field in the winter the Q can't always do the dash routes but I don't think AC is too concerned whether or not they make it into Timmins. Shania Twain Centre is closed so nothing left up there now.

New CEO so a few years to plane a new 2025 "sky regional" to eff things up again later.

[TFTMB heavy]

Section 45 of the ALPA Administrative Manual will apply for seniority list integration. Once pilot lists and data are compiled ALPA will step aside and both MECs via their Merger Committees will sort it out.

[rudder]

Section 45 of the ALPA Administrative Manual will apply for seniority list integration. Once pilot lists and data are compiled ALPA will step aside and both MECs via their Merger Committees will sort it out.

Nope. Not a merger. Nor an acquisition.

But you will probably be surprised how seamlessly the lists are integrated. Entirely voluntary.

[Sharklasers]

Section 45 of the ALPA Administrative Manual will apply for seniority list integration. Once pilot lists and data are compiled ALPA will step aside and both MECs via their Merger Committees will sort it out.

Nope. Not a merger. Nor an acquisition.

But you will probably be surprised how seamlessly the lists are integrated. Entirely voluntary.

It will be seamless because the details will all be hammered out before any consolidation is agreed to by the Jazz pilots.
Chorus wants this, has an idea of where they want the sky guys to end up and considers it a deal. They will probably pay for labour peace and to put this behind them on an accelerated timeline. Jazz MEC says they will have a tentative agreement to present within days and I trust there will be no Jazz pilot disadvantaged to the benefit of a SR pilot.
The ball is entirely in their court now and they will come up with a proposal and the Jazz pilots will vote on it.

The TWA-American merger was an example of this, The American pilots were given free reign to build the seniority lists as they saw “fair”.
Any merger will go fast and see less under those circumstances, even an AC-Transat one.

[TFTMB heavy]

Section 45 of the ALPA Administrative Manual will apply for seniority list integration. Once pilot lists and data are compiled ALPA will step aside and both MECs via their Merger Committees will sort it out.

Nope. Not a merger. Nor an acquisition.

But you will probably be surprised how seamlessly the lists are integrated. Entirely voluntary.

They are merging pilot lists, doesn't matter if the airlines are not merging.

[rudder]

They are merging pilot lists, doesn't matter if the airlines are not merging.

Sorry, you are still wrong. And I am not trying to be obtuse. I am simply providing facts.

If it were a merger, it would be declared by ALPA. Merger Policy would apply of which list integration is just a segment of the broader exercise, and happens later in a multilateral process that begins with determination of interim representation and decision making structure, and joint collective bargaining for a common collective agreement.

This is no different than the arrangement affecting the GGN pilots in 2019. These steps were never taken as they were not applicable. It is all out there for examination.

[DouglasPenner]

Everyone needs to spread the word.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/c ... -1.5926728

Send yours to

Office of the Prime Minister
80 Wellington Street
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A2

With the #SaveCanadianAviation

Doug

[Goodman5]

Section 45 of the ALPA Administrative Manual will apply for seniority list integration. Once pilot lists and data are compiled ALPA will step aside and both MECs via their Merger Committees will sort it out.

Nope. Not a merger. Nor an acquisition.

But you will probably be surprised how seamlessly the lists are integrated. Entirely voluntary.

Entirely voluntary? Pretty bold to be speaking for the ~600 inactive pilots. Can’t imagine a single one of them being too keen to see a SR pilot ‘seamlessly’ come in and take their food off the table.

[Admiral Benson]

I think the Jazz pilot group has a pretty clear split between career Jazz pilots and those who are simply trying to get to AC. The problem is you need support from both camps to push a vote through.

With the GGN “merger” many life long jazz pilots voted YES in order to eliminate a potential whipsaw labour group, and to extend the CPA to past their retirement date. No Jazz pilot who was trying to get to AC was happy about the GGN pilot DOH integration, But they still voted YES because the new agreement secured the 65% Jazz to AC hiring ratio. The junior Jazz pilots voted themselves out of a few seniority positions in order increase their odds of getting to AC.

I am very curious what the union could possibly offer this time around in order to convince the junior part of the group that they should support a measure that will undoubtedly lengthen their layoff. That is if the laid off pilots even get a vote in this scenario?

AB