Goodman5 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:53 pm
Entirely voluntary? Pretty bold to be speaking for the ~600 inactive pilots. Can’t imagine a single one of them being too keen to see a SR pilot ‘seamlessly’ come in and take their food off the table.
Having a number and using a number can be two distinct issues. Lots of examples out there. I have lots of buddies at AC that have low seniority numbers that are prevented from bidding WB CA due to provisions of Article 25 while those junior to them can.
We are all waiting to see where this is heading. But the Jazz group has been fairly consistent in principle on assignment of seniority for over 30 years. I don’t think that will change in 2021.
Performing the exercise during a period of epic surplus will be the challenge. It will take bright minds, realistic expectations, and situational awareness. Skyregional has announced that it is closed permanently as of March 30th. That will be the starting point for the negotiation between ALPA and Jazz.
rudder wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:09 pm
Skyregional has announced that it is closed permanently as of March 30th. That will be the starting point for the negotiation between ALPA and Jazz.
When we found out about GGN closing shop in 2019, the negotiating was already completed. I'm sure it's the same situation now. The deal is likely already agreed to by ALPA and is pending ratification.
TFTMB heavy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:47 pm
They are merging pilot lists, doesn't matter if the airlines are not merging.
Sorry, you are still wrong. And I am not trying to be obtuse. I am simply providing facts.
If it were a merger, it would be declared by ALPA. Merger Policy would apply of which list integration is just a segment of the broader exercise, and happens later in a multilateral process that begins with determination of interim representation and decision making structure, and joint collective bargaining for a common collective agreement.
This is no different than the arrangement affecting the GGN pilots in 2019. These steps were never taken as they were not applicable. It is all out there for examination.
I still think the policy applies when it comes to seniority lists, the policy is broad enough to allow for the MECs flexibility:
The policy recognizes that MECs may be required to deal with a variety of types of corporate transactions and that innovation by MECs dealing with different types of corporate transactions may best serve the interests of their pilot groups and ALPA. MECs are strongly encouraged to consider using flexible arrangements available under policy to design processes tailored to the needs of their particular pilot groups and transaction. MECs are encouraged to keep in mind that flexibility is made available in recognition that a “one size fits all” process is not the best approach when dealing with transactions.
This policy provides at the outset that its scope (Part 2B 1) should not be defined in terms of particular types of transactions or the timing or announcement of transactions, all of which are controlled by corporate interests, but rather in terms of situations when there is a need to protect employee interests.
Thus, a “merger” is defined as a situation where there is a reasonable probability of sufficient operational integration between or among two or more ALPA airlines that there is or will be a need for an integrated seniority list, a JCBA and a merged MEC to adequately protect the employment interests of the flight deck crew members. Its scope also recognizes that MECs may desire to make agreements “at any time” – for example, before there is a “merger” as defined by policy – to enable them to be involved in a potential merger at an early stage. The policy embraces the concept that MECs can enter into such agreements.
I suspect another DOH integration, that is the best outcome for Jazz pilots. If SR pilots get integrated with a ratio they would gain many numbers, that's my guess anyways. I think the big mess will be with bases more than positions on a list. Some fences will be placed.
It will be DOH. But who's to say if we will even operate the E175 anytime soon. We have probably 15-20 RJ900s parked right now, including about 6 brand new 900NGs. We have plenty of type qualified pilots ready to fly those aircraft, from what I understand the operating costs are quite low on the CRJ compared to the ERJ. I would not be surprised if they just leave the ERJ parked for 6 -12 months.. We'll soon see.
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Re-read the press release, the goal in the end is to save Air Canada money, everyone is focusing on the Embraer fleet...but what if no agreement can be reached between ALPA and Jazz, will the 19 Dash 8 300s still be retired as planned....more layoffs ?
dhc# wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:17 am
Re-read the press release, the goal in the end is to save Air Canada money, everyone is focusing on the Embraer fleet...but what if no agreement can be reached between ALPA and Jazz, will the 19 Dash 8 300s still be retired as planned....more layoffs ?
I'm thinking that it ends up DOH with fencing on the E175's until things recover. The DH3's are gone one way, or another. Seems AC domestic regional network will never be quite the same and many smaller communities will likely lose their AC network services.
Thank you. I didn't realize that was a thing, but I guess it makes sense. If the plan is for these tails to operate at all after March 30th, the only typed pilots in Canada right now are the ones currently working for SR.
I suspect another DOH integration, that is the best outcome for Jazz pilots. If SR pilots get integrated with a ratio they would gain many numbers, that's my guess anyways. I think the big mess will be with bases more than positions on a list. Some fences will be placed.
The best case for the Jazz pilot will be botl for the Skyregional pilots with some sort of fence for start up. I don’t see why the Jazz guys couldn’t get it either seeing as this whole deal hinges on their approval.
Likely; BOTL but sr pilots keep yos for pay and flow through
dhc# wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:17 am
Re-read the press release, the goal in the end is to save Air Canada money, everyone is focusing on the Embraer fleet...but what if no agreement can be reached between ALPA and Jazz, will the 19 Dash 8 300s still be retired as planned....more layoffs ?
I'm thinking that it ends up DOH with fencing on the E175's until things recover. The DH3's are gone one way, or another. Seems AC domestic regional network will never be quite the same and many smaller communities will likely lose their AC network services.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
dhc# wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:17 am
Re-read the press release, the goal in the end is to save Air Canada money, everyone is focusing on the Embraer fleet...but what if no agreement can be reached between ALPA and Jazz, will the 19 Dash 8 300s still be retired as planned....more layoffs ?
I'm thinking that it ends up DOH with fencing on the E175's until things recover. The DH3's are gone one way, or another. Seems AC domestic regional network will never be quite the same and many smaller communities will likely lose their AC network services.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
Dont know why everyone keeps calling it a precedent.. its not, it wasnt a merger it was the nice thing to do basically. And like usual, if theres a vote, itll pass because people dont know how to say no
dhc# wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:17 am
Re-read the press release, the goal in the end is to save Air Canada money, everyone is focusing on the Embraer fleet...but what if no agreement can be reached between ALPA and Jazz, will the 19 Dash 8 300s still be retired as planned....more layoffs ?
I'm thinking that it ends up DOH with fencing on the E175's until things recover. The DH3's are gone one way, or another. Seems AC domestic regional network will never be quite the same and many smaller communities will likely lose their AC network services.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
It's a bit different as the Georgian pilots never brought any aircraft over with them. Bringing the DH3 fleet removal into the equation just muddies the water.
I'm thinking that it ends up DOH with fencing on the E175's until things recover. The DH3's are gone one way, or another. Seems AC domestic regional network will never be quite the same and many smaller communities will likely lose their AC network services.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
It's a bit different as the Georgian pilots never brought any aircraft over with them. Bringing the DH3 fleet removal into the equation just muddies the water.
That's not correct. We received a net 5 CRJ200s from AGN when all said and done.
throwaway123 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:00 am
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
Dont know why everyone keeps calling it a precedent.. its not, it wasnt a merger it was the nice thing to do basically. And like usual, if theres a vote, itll pass because people dont know how to say no
The mechanics of the transactions may be similar, but there is no comparison between the state of the industry in general - and Express in particular - as between 2019 and 2021.
This one will be much more complicated. It is doable. But it will require greater attention to impact which will not be mitigated by unprecedented attrition.
Does the Jazz ALPA shop "owe" anything to the SKR ALPA shop when you have 600 in your own house sitting on EI/CEWS ?
AC and Chorus want this, so Jazz takes the 25 175s, parks em' or gets rid of them, puts part of the idle Jazz fleet on the former SKR routes and in addition brings back their own guys on layoff. I fail to see what if any leverage do the SKR pilots have in this deal ?
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
It's a bit different as the Georgian pilots never brought any aircraft over with them. Bringing the DH3 fleet removal into the equation just muddies the water.
That's not correct. We received a net 5 CRJ200s from AGN when all said and done.
And those were a type already operated by JZA, so able to be integrated into the fleet with no fencing.
OTOH adding 25 aircraft if a type not ever operated by Jazz means at the very least qualified contract pilots to start up the operation. The incoming pilots being qualified makes the idea of fences more logical. But I am sure that overall Jazz will want to operate the EMJs their way, so I don’t see fences being a long term solution.
None of this is going to matter until the government gets rid of the travel restrictions. I am sitting on reserve at Jazz and haven’t flown in over a month. There’s literally NO transborder flying right now at the Express level.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
It's a bit different as the Georgian pilots never brought any aircraft over with them. Bringing the DH3 fleet removal into the equation just muddies the water.
That's not correct. We received a net 5 CRJ200s from AGN when all said and done.
Yes, I forgot about those CRJ200's. Were those 5 originally in the Jazz fleet prior to going to Georgian?
I'm thinking that it ends up DOH with fencing on the E175's until things recover. The DH3's are gone one way, or another. Seems AC domestic regional network will never be quite the same and many smaller communities will likely lose their AC network services.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
It's a bit different as the Georgian pilots never brought any aircraft over with them.
Yes they did. Crj 200s and part of the deal was a handful of 900s that were being allegedly prepped to go to GGN.
It's a bit different as the Georgian pilots never brought any aircraft over with them. Bringing the DH3 fleet removal into the equation just muddies the water.
That's not correct. We received a net 5 CRJ200s from AGN when all said and done.
And those were a type already operated by JZA, so able to be integrated into the fleet with no fencing.
OTOH adding 25 aircraft if a type not ever operated by Jazz means at the very least qualified contract pilots to start up the operation. The incoming pilots being qualified makes the idea of fences more logical. But I am sure that overall Jazz will want to operate the EMJs their way, so I don’t see fences being a long term solution.
My guess is the EMBs won't even be operated for quite some time. Jazz has a ton of planes parked right now. Those will all be brought back to the flight line before the EMBs. All the EMBs need to go through Jazz mx, and be put on the OC. There will need to be an approved training system in place as well. You can't just move planes from Sky to Jazz and have them fly asap. Sky's CPA is being pulled so this isn't like when two airlines merge and you can continue operating on both OCs for a time like CDN/AC etc.
In the meantime, if there were say 5-10 Embraers flying at Sky right now I expect 5-10 CRJs to be brought back on line to fill that void and those EMBs taken or of service for now. So crewing, fencing etc won't matter.
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Last edited by throwaway123 on Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kosiw wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:58 am
AC and Chorus want this, so Jazz takes the 25 175s, parks em' or gets rid of them, puts part of the idle Jazz fleet on the former SKR routes and in addition brings back their own guys on layoff. I fail to see what if any leverage do the SKR pilots have in this deal ?
