Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

[theflyinghotdog]

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[Loon-A-Tic]

It seem like the time is right to "circle the wagons" before each operation gets pick off one by one and the bar just keeps getting lowered for all that remain.

[hithere]

Regarding how it is that an FA can ride J before an FO... AC picked some arbitrary date(I think it was 2012 maybe when SKY was formed and we all became Express) after which ANY(FO or FA) Express crew would not be eligible for a J upgrade regardless of availability in the front. So it has nothing to do with whether you are a pilot or FA- just date of hire. Here’s another little known fact- were you aware that Express employees all get charged service fees on pass travel based on distance and the number of sectors, as opposed to the flat $5 fee per direction for mainline employees? This is obviously on top of the AIF , security charges etc. that everyone pays. So a YYT-YYZ-YYT return flight for an Express employee is about $80 more per commuting trip than mainline. That follows whether these are mainline aircraft or Express and multiply that by several commutes a month and it becomes substantial

[hithere]

So even to rectify the Deadheading J availability(of course after mainlineRP which I think is a position that will be disappearing soon and not like Jazz crew would ever be on the same long Haul flights that a mainline DH RP would be on. Not to mention currently Jazz FO deadhead in the middle seat in the back from YYZ-YVR and then operate several legs to Alberta and back so it could be argued that they need good seat more than anyone) and the difference in pass travel fees would be a win

[throwaway123]

So even to rectify the Deadheading J availability(of course after mainlineRP which I think is a position that will be disappearing soon and not like Jazz crew would ever be on the same long Haul flights that a mainline DH RP would be on. Not to mention currently Jazz FO deadhead in the middle seat in the back from YYZ-YVR and then operate several legs to Alberta and back so it could be argued that they need good seat more than anyone) and the difference in pass travel fees would be a win

Lots of RPs end up deadheading YYZ-YVR or vise versa, YVR-YYC etc in an NB. But largely you are correct, there wouldn't' be much crossover.

At the end of the day everyone should have access at minimum to an empty seat in J. Both on DH's and during personal travel (even if it's at the bottom of the list after all the points upgrades). There is zero reason to let a J seat go empty on any flight if there is even one employee or express employee onboard. Other than of course control.

I know the last time around with the GGN merger, the negotiations committee was pretty clear during the road shows that they tried very hard to get J space available. Hopefully this time they might be successful. Given the state of the industry, I have a feeling a lot of the "wins" you'll see are going to be work/lifestyle related and not so much pay.

[Splash]

Regarding how it is that an FA can ride J before an FO... AC picked some arbitrary date(I think it was 2012 maybe when SKY was formed and we all became Express) after which ANY(FO or FA) Express crew would not be eligible for a J upgrade regardless of availability in the front. So it has nothing to do with whether you are a pilot or FA- just date of hire. Here’s another little known fact- were you aware that Express employees all get charged service fees on pass travel based on distance and the number of sectors, as opposed to the flat $5 fee per direction for mainline employees? This is obviously on top of the AIF , security charges etc. that everyone pays. So a YYT-YYZ-YYT return flight for an Express employee is about $80 more per commuting trip than mainline. That follows whether these are mainline aircraft or Express and multiply that by several commutes a month and it becomes substantial

In early 2012 AC announced changes to the CPA employee pass policy. The initial intent was to make all CPA employees C4 and POS Y only. After some persuasive arguments about their beneficial and lengthy historical relationship, Jazz was able to find some middle ground and convince AC to essentially grandfather employees hired prior to AC selling its controlling interest in early 2006. That may explain why you see FA's up front in J, most likely hired prior to 2006.
The differences in how the pass policy is applied between mainline and CPA carriers to me seems unfair, as in the example quoted, flat fee vs mileage being just one of a number. Strangely enough, it's the CPA employees that should be paying less, as they earn less. Oh well, life's not fair.

[hithere]

You are correct with the 2006 date for C4 versus C2 but there was yet another division created in 2012 when AC decided that no CPA employee on DH travel would be allowed to occupy a J class seat. If you see a post 2012 CPA pilot in a J class seat it’s only because the gate agent(or operating flight attendant) said “this second class citizen” bullshit is ridiculous and put said person in J out of the goodness of their heart

[sevendigits]

Don’t know how this got side-tracked into a discussion about travel benefits but just as an FYI...when our JAZZ crew scheduling department books our DH’s for company operations or we utilize our business profile for booking a banked DH business class seat, all pilots that were hired prior to 2006 are either PY3/J05 for business travel or C2 for pleasure travel with our YOS as the boarding priority.

My point exactly. How can someone hired prior to 2006 have the privilege of C2 travel or J class for DH when business space is available? I understand that these are employees that have been with Jazz for years (Canadian Regional and prior to Jazz). There is no justification for them being able to have these passes and employees hired after 2006 being treated like second class citizens. All Express employees regardless of date of hire should be treated equally. Shame on you AC for treating regional pilots flying "your" passengers like second class people! This is an issue that needs to be addressed along with many others. It is time pilots on the express side stand up and demand they be treated equally. Again, it is discrimination plain and simple. By the way we got side tracked since its a benefit that needs to be addressed.

[Splash]

Don’t know how this got side-tracked into a discussion about travel benefits but just as an FYI...when our JAZZ crew scheduling department books our DH’s for company operations or we utilize our business profile for booking a banked DH business class seat, all pilots that were hired prior to 2006 are either PY3/J05 for business travel or C2 for pleasure travel with our YOS as the boarding priority.

My point exactly. How can someone hired prior to 2006 have the privilege of C2 travel or J class for DH when business space is available? I understand that these are employees that have been with Jazz for years (Canadian Regional and prior to Jazz). There is no justification for them being able to have these passes and employees hired after 2006 being treated like second class citizens. All Express employees regardless of date of hire should be treated equally. Shame on you AC for treating regional pilots flying "your" passengers like second class people! This is an issue that needs to be addressed along with many others. It is time pilots on the express side stand up and demand they be treated equally. Again, it is discrimination plain and simple. By the way we got side tracked since its a benefit that needs to be addressed.

Jazz employees prior to 2006 were essentially employee's of AC subsidiary division that they ( AC ) had a controlling interest. Once they no longer had that controlling interest (2006), those same employee's were grandfathered under the previous travel policy and everyone that came after was in simple terms a contractor. It was all part of the 2003 CCAA restructuring where ACE Enterprises monetized and sold off a number of units, AVEOS, Aeroplan and Jazz.

[timeflies]

Regarding how it is that an FA can ride J before an FO... AC picked some arbitrary date(I think it was 2012 maybe when SKY was formed and we all became Express) after which ANY(FO or FA) Express crew would not be eligible for a J upgrade regardless of availability in the front. So it has nothing to do with whether you are a pilot or FA- just date of hire. Here’s another little known fact- were you aware that Express employees all get charged service fees on pass travel based on distance and the number of sectors, as opposed to the flat $5 fee per direction for mainline employees? This is obviously on top of the AIF , security charges etc. that everyone pays. So a YYT-YYZ-YYT return flight for an Express employee is about $80 more per commuting trip than mainline. That follows whether these are mainline aircraft or Express and multiply that by several commutes a month and it becomes substantial

Not sure where your getting your info. But your 100% wrong. AC staff (pilots) pay all the fees. If your getting charged $80 per commute from Yyt return then AC pilots who commute are getting ripped off. Because it’s over $100 from Yyt return, that’s direct flight for mainline pilots. Now no drift your liking at around $150.. Just dropping a few facts as your trying to stir the pot without the facts.

Cheers

He’s 100% right. All Jazz Pilots and staff get charged service fees on top of the cost of the flight ticket. All mainline employees don’t have to pay it, even the ramp guys(no disrespect to the ramp guys, I was one of them), or the gate agent. Hell, even their C5 doesn’t have to pay service fees!

[airway]

Not sure where your getting your info. But your 100% wrong. AC staff (pilots) pay all the fees. If your getting charged $80 per commute from Yyt return then AC pilots who commute are getting ripped off. Because it’s over $100 from Yyt return, that’s direct flight for mainline pilots. Now no drift your liking at around $150.. Just dropping a few facts as your trying to stir the pot without the facts.

Cheers

He’s 100% right. All Jazz Pilots and staff get charged service fees on top of the cost of the flight ticket. All mainline employees don’t have to pay it, even the ramp guys(no disrespect to the ramp guys, I was one of them), or the gate agent. Hell, even their C5 doesn’t have to pay service fees!

Sorry I do apologize. He/She said “80 more” I miss read that. Thought he said Jazz pays $80 return to yyt. If that were the case than it would be less than what AC commuters/ staff pay around $125 on direct flight return to yyt. Now around $150 with connecting flights. I have no idea what Jazz pilots pay to commute. If your paying those services charges then it shouldn’t be that way. Anyways good luck with the fight guys. Times suck right now, hopefully better days to come, and commuting cost will keep going up when demand hits airports will increase their fees even more to recoup the loss.

Cheers

Could somebody give us the Cole’s notes of this confusing discussion.


.

[Kaykay]

Congrats on becoming the sole carrier again. I remember hearing rumours about the E175s a long time ago. Who knew it’d find a way to happen.

[rudder]

I am 99.9% positive that the corporate pass policy states that pass policy may not be discussed in public. Pretty certain this is a public forum.

As for POS DH upgrade priority, that sounds like a possible labour relations issue. For those that may want to continue the debate, I suggest it’s own thread. Or perhaps better still, move it to a private forum.

[timeflies]

Then what is the latest news on the topic? As per the MEC Chair the deal to bring the embraers is not even done yet. We might be up for a (long?) ride waiting.

On the other hand looks like AC absolutely wants the E175 to be running as of May 1st.

If it’s done, hearing Rep MEC’s are now strongly proposing 2sky pilots for 1 jazz pilot for call backs? Bring the active embraer pilots and the others BOTL? Will the sky guys keep their equipment...

Too many questions only time will tell, I guess.

[Loon-A-Tic]

I am 99.9% positive that the corporate pass policy states that pass policy may not be discussed in public. Pretty certain this is a public forum.

As for POS DH upgrade priority, that sounds like a possible labour relations issue. For those that may want to continue the debate, I suggest it’s own thread. Or perhaps better still, move it to a private forum.

This thread has drifted so far off the original title that it has become completely useless.

[CanadianPilotQc]

If you don’t like what you’re reading just scroll or worst case don’t open. The subject of better travel passes is important to bring in the negotiations because if sky pilots are coming over then might as well have some benefits out of it!

[GATRKGA]

100% of Jazz interviews, if not 99.9% (to give ac control), successful at AC, heck have AC involved in the hiring process at Jazz, it's not rocket science. Heck, they own part of CHR, so it wouldn't even be an HR issue.
70% of AC ground schools are Jazz
Bump FO Pay at Jazz to match Sky
Give the seniors a 2% pay raise
Fix the DH/Personal Travel issues
Insert a re-opener when passenger levels are back to 2019
DOH Merge of the ISL.

Pretty hard pressed to see Jazz guys reject the deal if this was proposed in front of them.

It solves the ambiguity of going to AC, anyone who wants AC, will end up there.

Why? More than 60% of the list is less than 4 years into the company. Meaning they came to Jazz to go to AC (majority, not all - I get there are a demographic of lifers that are happy at Jazz). So you'll have their vote if you fix their guaranteed AC number, when things eventually go back to normal.

The 2% raise to the seniors gets their vote.

The pass travel issue gets everyone's votes

The bump to FO salary at Jazz gets the super junior's votes.

This shouldn't be hard to get in this landscape. 100% interview success and 70% of ground schools costs AC literally nothing, in fact it solves their pilot shortage issue when we eventually spring back and lets JS chillout as opposed to running around like chicken with their heads cutoff. The pass travel issue costs AC nothing. The only cost to AC here is the pay bump, which is worth it in a contract you have sustainable relations with until 2035.

Shoot for the stars, and land on the moon, would seem like a decent outcome to put the historic fight of express behind us since 2010, thanks to the inept leadership over at ACPA.

Sunwing with their Tier 2 union (Unifor) managed to pull off some decent gains in a pandemic, I trust the Jazz and Sky MEC will do the same. It will also act as advertisement for ALPA when the representation vote occurs between TS/AC pilot's, given the shit storm ACPA is in as of late (if the transaction goes through).

[timeflies]

100% of Jazz interviews, if not 99.9% (to give ac control), successful at AC, heck have AC involved in the hiring process at Jazz, it's not rocket science. Heck, they own part of CHR, so it wouldn't even be an HR issue.
70% of AC ground schools are Jazz
Bump FO Pay at Jazz to match Sky
Give the seniors a 2% pay raise
Fix the DH/Personal Travel issues
Insert a re-opener when passenger levels are back to 2019
DOH Merge of the ISL.

Pretty hard pressed to see Jazz guys reject the deal if this was proposed in front of them.

It solves the ambiguity of going to AC, anyone who wants AC, will end up there.

Why? More than 60% of the list is less than 4 years into the company. Meaning they came to Jazz to go to AC (majority, not all - I get there are a demographic of lifers that are happy at Jazz). So you'll have their vote if you fix their guaranteed AC number, when things eventually go back to normal.

The 2% raise to the seniors gets their vote.

The pass travel issue gets everyone's votes

The bump to FO salary at Jazz gets the super junior's votes.

This shouldn't be hard to get in this landscape. 100% interview success and 70% of ground schools costs AC literally nothing, in fact it solves their pilot shortage issue when we eventually spring back and lets JS chillout as opposed to running around like chicken with their heads cutoff. The pass travel issue costs AC nothing. The only cost to AC here is the pay bump, which is worth it in a contract you have sustainable relations with until 2035.

Shoot for the stars, and land on the moon, would seem like a decent outcome to put the historic fight of express behind us since 2010, thanks to the inept leadership over at ACPA.

Sunwing with their Tier 2 union (Unifor) managed to pull off some decent gains in a pandemic, I trust the Jazz and Sky MEC will do the same. It will also act as advertisement for ALPA when the representation vote occurs between TS/AC pilot's, given the shit storm ACPA is in as of late (if the transaction goes through).

If we can get all this I’m pretty sure the vote will positive. Let’s hope our reps and chairs are reading...

[JoeyBarton]

Pushing for DOH in all acquisition-mergers eh GATRKGA?

[altiplano]

LOL...

Keep dreaming guys.

[mbav8r]

LOL...

Keep dreaming guys.

Yep, funny thing is some think there will be gains out of this, they will be sorely disappointed!

[Sharklasers]

LOL...

Keep dreaming guys.

Yep, funny thing is some think there will be gains out of this, they will be sorely disappointed!

I don’t know how the Jazz MEC could possibly manage to not extract gains from this. You guys have them by the stones. I don’t care what Claude says AC wants to consolidate, it’s a done deal and you guys hold the keys to getting it that last mile.
Good luck.

[mbav8r]

LOL...

Keep dreaming guys.

Yep, funny thing is some think there will be gains out of this, they will be sorely disappointed!

I don’t know how the Jazz MEC could possibly manage to not extract gains from this. You guys have them by the stones. I don’t care what Claude says AC wants to consolidate, it’s a done deal and you guys hold the keys to getting it that last mile.
Good luck.

I would like to agree, however the message was sent to prepare us for disappointment, time will tell.

[flyingcanuck]

LOL...

Keep dreaming guys.

Yep, funny thing is some think there will be gains out of this, they will be sorely disappointed!

I don’t know how the Jazz MEC could possibly manage to not extract gains from this. You guys have them by the stones. I don’t care what Claude says AC wants to consolidate, it’s a done deal and you guys hold the keys to getting it that last mile.
Good luck.

They will find a way to disappoint in sure. They're not happy until everyone is unhappy! (About 80% joking)

[Sharklasers]

Yep, funny thing is some think there will be gains out of this, they will be sorely disappointed!

I don’t know how the Jazz MEC could possibly manage to not extract gains from this. You guys have them by the stones. I don’t care what Claude says AC wants to consolidate, it’s a done deal and you guys hold the keys to getting it that last mile.
Good luck.

I would like to agree, however the message was sent to prepare us for disappointment, time will tell.

I saw the email, I see what your saying. There must be a cadre of sane and rational LEC members who won’t let the chair bend the junior members over the table on this one right?
I think any vote should be taken as a referendum on the leadership in place, it’s good to act on your principals but first and foremost you must take care of your dues paying members.