Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

[rudder]

Considering the very last CRJ 900 came off the production line in Mirabel on 1 Mar 2021, would anyone consider that it might be prudent for Air Canada to stay focused on the Embraer for Regional Fleet Renewal in the future? I mean what other options are there?

Just one of my thoughts.

There is only one production alternative - the E175 E2.

The initiative for AC to source a long term replacement in the 76 seat category is likely paused due to the COVID impacted travel environment (with a 1-3 year hangover) and balance sheet implications of a C$1-2B program.

For now, AC is obviously committed to the CRJ900. With the CPA extension to 2035, CRJ900 lease commitments to CHR for factory CRJ900’s (certainly minimum 10 years), and availability of used CRJ900’s at favourable rates - the CRJ900 will exist in Express paint for the foreseeable future.

The 76 seat aircraft exiting the Express fleet in the near term will be the 15 AC owned E175’s.

[Kosiw]

Considering the very last CRJ 900 came off the production line in Mirabel on 1 Mar 2021, would anyone consider that it might be prudent for Air Canada to stay focused on the Embraer for Regional Fleet Renewal in the future? I mean what other options are there?

Just one of my thoughts.

There is only one production alternative - the E175 E2.

The initiative for AC to source a long term replacement in the 76 seat category is likely paused due to the COVID impacted travel environment (with a 1-3 year hangover) and balance sheet implications of a C$1-2B program.

For now, AC is obviously committed to the CRJ900. With the CPA extension to 2035, CRJ900 lease commitments to CHR for factory CRJ900’s (certainly minimum 10 years), and availability of used CRJ900’s at favourable rates - the CRJ900 will exist in Express paint for the foreseeable future.

The 76 seat aircraft exiting the Express fleet in the near term will be the 15 AC owned E175’s.

And what of the CRJ 200s future, how much longer will they soldier on, in the Express fleet considering that the 50 seater Dash's are on the way out by the end of '21 ?

[rudder]

And what of the CRJ 200s future, how much longer will they soldier on, in the Express fleet considering that the 50 seater Dash's are on the way out by the end of '21 ?

Fate of the remaining 15 CRJ200’s is dependant upon mission. AC primarily used them to feed YYZ/YUL hubs from secondary US cities. It remains to be seen how fast recovery in the trans border and intercontinental markets happen. If AC can return to previous form sooner rather than later, then these services will be necessary. If not, less so.

No doubt, lease rates on CRJ200’s are rock bottom. Whether that is a factor in longevity of the CRJ200 operation at Express remains to be seen.

[47north]

Considering the very last CRJ 900 came off the production line in Mirabel on 1 Mar 2021, would anyone consider that it might be prudent for Air Canada to stay focused on the Embraer for Regional Fleet Renewal in the future? I mean what other options are there?

Just one of my thoughts.

There is only one production alternative - the E175 E2.

The initiative for AC to source a long term replacement in the 76 seat category is likely paused due to the COVID impacted travel environment (with a 1-3 year hangover) and balance sheet implications of a C$1-2B program.

For now, AC is obviously committed to the CRJ900. With the CPA extension to 2035, CRJ900 lease commitments to CHR for factory CRJ900’s (certainly minimum 10 years), and availability of used CRJ900’s at favourable rates - the CRJ900 will exist in Express paint for the foreseeable future.

The 76 seat aircraft exiting the Express fleet in the near term will be the 15 AC owned E175’s.

And what of the CRJ 200s future, how much longer will they soldier on, in the Express fleet considering that the 50 seater Dash's are on the way out by the end of '21 ?

I believe it is in the CPA that Jazz and AC will start talking fleet renewal in 2023. I disagree with Rudder in that sometime around mid-decade you will see an E2 order to replace the entire 76 seat jet fleet. The 175-E2 closes the gap with the CRJ900 on operating costs versus the classic 175s. A big advantage for AC dealing with CHR is that they don't have to finance the aircraft. CHR can and if they have leasing revenue from the fleet, the direct CPA cost is less to AC, as it is now. There will be a market for used CRJ900s and CHR could place those elsewhere.

There has been no indication that the CRJ200s will survive past their planned 2025 retirement date.

[rudder]

I believe it is in the CPA that Jazz and AC will start talking fleet renewal in 2023. I disagree with Rudder in that sometime around mid-decade you will see an E2 order to replace the entire 76 seat jet fleet. The 175-E2 closes the gap with the CRJ900 on operating costs versus the classic 175s. A big advantage for AC dealing with CHR is that they don't have to finance the aircraft. CHR can and if they have leasing revenue from the fleet, the direct CPA cost is less to AC, as it is now. There will be a market for used CRJ900s and CHR could place those elsewhere.

We may not disagree as much as you think.

I believe that absent COVID there would have been an order for a replacement 76 seat jet for Express placed in 2022 with deliveries commencing in 2024. But in that timeline the Mitsubishi RJ was also a possibility. Now that program has been suspended (but not cancelled).

With COVID, I believe that order will now probably happen in either 2023 or 2024 with deliveries commencing in either 2025 or 2026.

No doubt, CHR will want to be a player if there is an ownership/leasing opportunity to be had. But that will be a decision that AC will make. Right now CHR is able to offer bargain basement fixed fee CPA rates as they can be partially offset by leasing revenue derived from leasing opportunities to AC.

Lots of airline balance sheets have been beat up by COVID. And the E2 is not typically offered at a discount. This will be at best a medium term consideration.

[haironfire]

Approximately 8 years ago American Airlines conducted a review for their Regional Fleet Growth. Since both the E175 and CRJ 900 have the same engines, which one is more efficient? The results (as I was told) revealed that the E175 is more efficent at lower altitudes, and the CRJ 900's at higher altitudes.

This resulted in a 50/50 split E175/CRJ9. The E175's went to companies that flew in NY airspace more often, and CRJ9's went out west.

Moving forward, the rationale behind cheap used CRJ's also apply to the E175's as well.

But with the E2's they have more efficient engines, just like the A220 and 737 Max. And I am sure there are deals to be made for E2's as well.

Just a thought anyway.

[rudder]

Approximately 8 years ago American Airlines conducted a review for their Regional Fleet Growth. Since both the E175 and CRJ 900 have the same engines, which one is more efficient? The results (as I was told) revealed that the E175 is more efficent at lower altitudes, and the CRJ 900's at higher altitudes.

This resulted in a 50/50 split E175/CRJ9. The E175's went to companies that flew in NY airspace more often, and CRJ9's went out west.

Moving forward, the rationale behind cheap used CRJ's also apply to the E175's as well.

But with the E2's they have more efficient engines, just like the A220 and 737 Max. And I am sure there are deals to be made for E2's as well.

Just a thought anyway.

There is a significant performance and efficiency gap between the first generation E175’s and the later generations (aerodynamic enhancements) and the E2 (geared turbofan power plant). Unfortunately, the 25 E175’s in service at Express are all first generation. And Jazz is now operating a fleet of 35 second and third generation 900’s, with the majority third generation.

With the A220’s arriving at AC, there will be current 175/900 Express routes that will revert to mainline. More likely to see the 900’s used on long/thin routes with the 175 on shorter stage lengths. Long term, AC will have to decide how it will meet the 80 fin obligation to CHR after 2025 comprised of aircraft 76+ seats. AC could always turn CHR in to a big time Q400 operator (not likely) so there will need to be a stable of 40+ 76 seat jets at Express from 2026-2035. It is that obligation that will have AC taking a very close look at the E2.

E2 looks like a great aircraft. But it is not cheap. An angle that AC (CHR?) will have in pricing is that it does not have the scope/weight restriction that the US legacy carriers have in using the E2 at the CPA level.

[haironfire]

All very good points and I agree to all except the 2nd and 3rd generation RJ's. I have flown them, and the E175's. The 3rd generation RJ's are the generation BEFORE the E175, with the same old engines, only brand new old stuff.

I am no business man, but after flying old and new stuff I believe AC will have to be forward thinking for cost savings, not looking in the mirror.

[rudder]

All very good points and I agree to all except the 2nd and 3rd generation RJ's. I have flown them, and the E175's. The 3rd generation RJ's are the generation BEFORE the E175, with the same old engines, only brand new old stuff.

I am no business man, but after flying old and new stuff I believe AC will have to be forward thinking for cost savings, not looking in the mirror.

Not CRJ’s - CRJ900’s.

First gen CRJ900 had small vertical winglet and lower MGTOW. Circa 2001.

Second gen CRJ900 had much larger winglet increasing the area of the lifting surface plus much increased MGTOW. Circa 2005.

Third gen CRJ900 is the NG. Approximately 5.5% more efficient than predecessor. Circa 2008.

I agree the CRJ is not going to be the Express aircraft for the 2030’s. It will likely be an Embraer product unless Airbus decides to build a 90 seat (operated at 76 seats) A220. Also possible Mitsubishi will get around to certificating a 76-seater.

https://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/crj900/

[CanadianPilotQc]

when is the vote?

[seriousflyer]

Do we know how the seniority is going to work with the merger ?

Are sky regional pilots being feathered in or at the bottom or 4-1 or what?

[mbav8r]

Do we know how the seniority is going to work with the merger ?

Are sky regional pilots being feathered in or at the bottom or 4-1 or what?

First, it’s not a merger, SR is ceasing operation and the aircraft are being transferred to Jazz.
As for the pilots, yesterday we received an update that they’re still working on it and hope to have something soon. Based on the subtext of the message, I would say it’s going to be date of hire with 3-1 recall of the laid off pilots, with the current active SR pilots integrated immediately.
I expect the hold up on a deal is likely the company wants to prevent a huge training event by keeping the SR pilots on the 175 and the union wants them to fit in where their seniority allows.
I wonder the tenure of the most junior current Captain, if it means bypassing a downgraded Captain at Jazz, that would be a sticking point.
All this is pure speculation.

[the-minister31]

Do we know how the seniority is going to work with the merger ?

Are sky regional pilots being feathered in or at the bottom or 4-1 or what?

It's all speculations at this point, but I don't think it would be fair to be put BOTL. I think the union is working towards a DOH integration and trying to get a little something from the company (raise junior pay to Sky level for example)

As for recalls, that is a better question. "2 to 1" or "3 to 1" seems fair (since there is 220 Sky pilots vs 580 jazz pilots on inactive status).

[haironfire]

Not CRJ’s - CRJ900’s.

First gen CRJ900 had small vertical winglet and lower MGTOW. Circa 2001.

Second gen CRJ900 had much larger winglet increasing the area of the lifting surface plus much increased MGTOW. Circa 2005.

Third gen CRJ900 is the NG. Approximately 5.5% more efficient than predecessor. Circa 2008.

I agree the CRJ is not going to be the Express aircraft for the 2030’s. It will likely be an Embraer product unless Airbus decides to build a 90 seat (operated at 76 seats) A220. Also possible Mitsubishi will get around to certificating a 76-seater.

https://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/crj900/
[/quote]

I agree with your points rudder. I was only referring to the latest generation of CRJ900, and although they have improved the wing, it is still a generation behind automation and FBW technology currently used in E175. And they still have the same engines.

The future is improvement in aerodynamics, FBW, engines, and reducing weight in the material used for the build.

Both the current E175's and CRJ900's currently in the fleet need improvements.

I am just trying to say the current E175 is a ticket to the future. Something to consider as Jazz votes on CPA.

[rudder]

I am just trying to say the current E175 is a ticket to the future.

It will be the E175 E2 or something similar. In the near term, more likely that the E175 fleet will shrink than grow.

Jazz put 757’s in to service on 8 months notice. Adding any type of new equipment is not rocket science.

[rob-air]

sky pilot here, I ve been following this tread anxiously. Few things to consider, AC definitely want to keep the 175 flying so I dont think parking them is an option.

Also Sky has/had min time matrix for capt and minimum time for FO. Those minimums were imposed by air canada.....that is what mgt told us anyways, I wonder if that will be the case at JAZ. 1000hrs for FO and 3500 hrs and 1000hrs jet for capt. If this still stand it would make things interesting. Short term you will for sure see Sky pilots flying the 175 and thats the reason behind keeping those 30 pilots on staff. I do not know about Jazz but at sky mid list is at 3 years now, so roughly 150 pilots 3+ years. I would assume that with the flow to ac, at jazz you would have more than 150 pilots with less than 3 years in, and lots of pilots not meeting the mins for the 175. That makes me think that Jazz management would push a DOH integration.

Now on a more personal note, I would be happy to come to JAZZ but dont want to feel like I took someone's seat and being seen as an outsider. Sky was a tight knit family of amazing people and I really hope that everybody can win something out of this shit show.

Cheers

[haironfire]

Of course not rocket science, and I do remember the 757 transition all too well because I was a Training Captain on the B757 at Skyservice at the time.

I believe part of the E175 to Jazz deal comes with conditions, or NO DEAL. Air Canada will not wait 8 months to get them flying again. Otherwise I’m sure Jazz will continue merrily along on their current path as other options are devised by Air Canada?

If E175 added to current fleet, the E2 can be slowly added to the fleet over time as the oldies (both CRJ 900 and E175) are retired.

[JoeyBarton]

Does DOH apply to recalls? Say sky pilot has an older DOH but gets recalled later than a jazz pilot with a younger DOH due to the 3-1 recall ratio or whatever it is..Once recalled, who is more senior?

[rudder]

sky pilot here, I ve been following this tread anxiously. Few things to consider, AC definitely want to keep the 175 flying so I dont think parking them is an option.

Also Sky has/had min time matrix for capt and minimum time for FO. Those minimums were imposed by air canada.....that is what mgt told us anyways, I wonder if that will be the case at JAZ. 1000hrs for FO and 3500 hrs and 1000hrs jet for capt. If this still stand it would make things interesting. Short term you will for sure see Sky pilots flying the 175 and thats the reason behind keeping those 30 pilots on staff. I do not know about Jazz but at sky mid list is at 3 years now, so roughly 150 pilots 3+ years. I would assume that with the flow to ac, at jazz you would have more than 150 pilots with less than 3 years in, and lots of pilots not meeting the mins for the 175. That makes me think that Jazz management would push a DOH integration.

Now on a more personal note, I would be happy to come to JAZZ but dont want to feel like I took someone's seat and being seen as an outsider. Sky was a tight knit family of amazing people and I really hope that everybody can win something out of this shit show.

Cheers

175’s are being added to the Jazz AOC. Other than the SKV 175 AOM, there won’t be anything ported from SKV that will change how Jazz conducts its flight operations. A few airframes added to an operation that has historically run a multi type fleet of almost 150 aircraft is not a dramatic event.

There is no experience grid. Last time I checked, they don’t have one at AC either. There will not be a return anytime soon to the halcyon days of DEC hiring or college to Part 705 left seat in 24 months so no near term reason to reconsider that policy.

Management has no say in pilot seniority integration matters. However, opinion on cost or operational implications of formula used or restrictions is not unanticipated.

This isn’t the Jazz pilots first rodeo. They will figure it out and all parties will move forward as a cohesive unit.

[JoeyBarton]

Bit of a loaded question, but where do you stand Rudder in terms of DOH integration.
Thank you

[rudder]

Bit of a loaded question, but where do you stand Rudder in terms of DOH integration.
Thank you

For some, DOH is a matter of principle. Once you deviate, there are no guardrails and it can turn in to a free for all. However, using AC as a an example, some lists are no longer functioning as DOH due to prior seniority integration exercises (including arbitration awards). Similarly, the SKV list is not straight DOH for a few of the earlier years for reasons best known to the SKV pilots.

A number on a list and what you can do with that number can in some instances be two completely different circumstances. The mechanics of Article 25 in the ACPA collective agreement is a good example. Therefore, how lists are integrated and what restrictions to the application of seniority may apply are necessarily interrelated.

The comprehensive result is what must be considered.

[JoeyBarton]

So in other words how can this go DOH if the SKV pilots themselves during the 2013 expansion are not DOH within their own list?

Is DOH a pipe dream in this case?

[rob-air]

sky pilot here, I ve been following this tread anxiously. Few things to consider, AC definitely want to keep the 175 flying so I dont think parking them is an option.

Also Sky has/had min time matrix for capt and minimum time for FO. Those minimums were imposed by air canada.....that is what mgt told us anyways, I wonder if that will be the case at JAZ. 1000hrs for FO and 3500 hrs and 1000hrs jet for capt. If this still stand it would make things interesting. Short term you will for sure see Sky pilots flying the 175 and thats the reason behind keeping those 30 pilots on staff. I do not know about Jazz but at sky mid list is at 3 years now, so roughly 150 pilots 3+ years. I would assume that with the flow to ac, at jazz you would have more than 150 pilots with less than 3 years in, and lots of pilots not meeting the mins for the 175. That makes me think that Jazz management would push a DOH integration.

Now on a more personal note, I would be happy to come to JAZZ but dont want to feel like I took someone's seat and being seen as an outsider. Sky was a tight knit family of amazing people and I really hope that everybody can win something out of this shit show.

Cheers

175’s are being added to the Jazz AOC. Other than the SKV 175 AOM, there won’t be anything ported from SKV that will change how Jazz conducts its flight operations. A few airframes added to an operation that has historically run a multi type fleet of almost 150 aircraft is not a dramatic event.

There is no experience grid. Last time I checked, they don’t have one at AC either. There will not be a return anytime soon to the halcyon days of DEC hiring or college to Part 705 left seat in 24 months so no near term reason to reconsider that policy.

Management has no say in pilot seniority integration matters. However, opinion on cost or operational implications of formula used or restrictions is not unanticipated.

This isn’t the Jazz pilots first rodeo. They will figure it out and all parties will move forward as a cohesive unit.

I know management has no say but they have ways of making the vote go where they want it to go, AC carrot, signing bonus, enhance retirement package, better junior pay. So ultimately they do have a say.

Cohesive unit, I am all for that, But reading these pages scares me......

[rudder]

So in other words how can this go DOH if the SKV pilots themselves during the 2013 expansion are not DOH within their own list?

Is DOH a pipe dream in this case?

In the hypothetical - if one pilot with an earlier DOH is sitting immediately below another pilot on same list with later DOH, relative position to same carrier pilots in an Integration cannot be altered. Therefore, since pilot B must remain immediately below pilot A in an integrated list you simply twin them using pilot A DOH.

[FL101]

Never take financial advice from a pilot: Exhibit A

Pension plans offer avenues around the annual limits on RRSP contributions.

Your an idiot. I own 6 buildings. I need only sell 3 for my retirement with positive cash flow from my other 3. I started with one condo 5% down. What pension. Nobody will take care of you but yourself.

Good for you, and I mean that sincerely. I own rental property as well and I'm sure I could learn a lot from someone like yourself because I'm not entirely thrilled with my experience. It works well at generating a tax return and has certainly gained value with the market but I lost interest in growing a larger real estate portfolio out of concerns of a real estate bubble and not wanting to have so many eggs in one basket, you're comfortable with your position, I wouldn't be. Also, gains in value are deemed to be taxable income on rental properties when you sell correct?

My 'Exhibit A' comment was reference to the comment above yours. Some Pilots are good at investing/saving/managing their finances but most aren't (not unlike most Canadians today). Pension plans are an excellent safety net and as I mentioned have the benefit of 'workaround' in the tax code that allow for greater tax savings than the current annual RRSP limit.

I don't disagree with you mantra, I have no interest in leaving my well being up to government aid or anyone else's assistance. A statement like "the best pension is no pension at all" is simplistic, ignorant and was ruinous for millions in the Great Depression.

If your a pilot for +30 and you haven’t figured out how to invest, then I have zero sympathy for you. Learning to invest is perhaps the most important thing about life. If your not cut out for it, then hire someone to do it for you. But don’t force your coworkers to have a pension because you’re not clever enough to take care of yourself.

Jazz and AC need to liberate their employees from their crooked pension plans and give them bigger paycheques. It would save the company money and save the employees money. It’s the right thing to do.