More WJ layoffs

[Maxpwr]

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[Yycjetdriver]

Not really 415 less pilots....those that wanted to will be absorbed into Encore. Yes they're getting a paycut but frankly nobody's losing employment and in fact some Encore furloughs are getting recalled even with all this happening. Company will carry the pilots at Encore for less pay rather than carry them at mainline with the entire group at less pay. Frankly with vaccines accelerating and everyone being done by September i can't see why the mainline pilots should give up anything for a further 6 months, especially when nobody's gonna lose employment.

I believe that’s incorrect. I’ve seen there will be approximately 190 out on the street, including some who bumped from Mainline to Encore during the previous reduction.

Nobody’s going on the street from this round that didn’t choose to go there. Everybody at mainline had the option to bump down to Encore. Most are doing exactly that. Encore is growing its pilot numbers to absorb them and growing further to recall a handful of laid off pilots from the last reduction. Working at Encore is a far cry from being kicked out onto the street. If this was just one
Big company then all this would simply be downgrades into the Dash + a few recalls. I’m not saying it’s great. It blows. But nobody’s being forced onto unemployment this time around.

Simmer down, nobody’s talking about the working conditions at Encore.
I’m just going off the numbers I have heard/read. There’s 415 reductions happening at Mainline, while an increase of approximately 250 positions at Encore. Therefor there will be pilots on the street, whether they are because their bid didn’t include Encore doesn’t change anything. Saying “nobody’s going to the street that didn’t chose to go there” is completely delusional and something I’d expect to see from management.
These pilots are on the street because there is a reduction in positions are their employer, no different than any other employees around the world who have lost their jobs. Just because they had an opportunity to bid into a completely different employer/position but chose not to for whatever reason, doesn’t mean we should look at them any different. There could be a multitude of reasons for their decision.

[Maxpwr]

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[Justjohn]

Nobody's simmering dude. I'm just stating the facts. its easy to pretend that Encore doesn't exist and that position reductions at mainline = joining the bread line but that's just not true. And yes people certainly have every right to choose being unemployed over taking a downgrade to Encore. But that's their choice. Maybe they can make more in their side gig than working at Encore. Probably sadly the case. But the choice is theirs to make. Another fact is that their choice to leave has enabled some that were forced out to come back. And that's a good thing. So I stand by previous statement that nobody's being kicked to the unemployment line by force....this time. I'm not going to sit here and make this out to be a great moment because it's not. 415 fewer positions at mainline sucks moose balls! We all just got pushed far back from the return line to mainline. We should all be able to agree and hope that this is the last reduction due to covid.

Peace


‘Cept the hundreds of Encore pilots. Jackass.

[Yycjetdriver]

Nobody’s going on the street from this round that didn’t choose to go there. Everybody at mainline had the option to bump down to Encore. Most are doing exactly that. Encore is growing its pilot numbers to absorb them and growing further to recall a handful of laid off pilots from the last reduction. Working at Encore is a far cry from being kicked out onto the street. If this was just one
Big company then all this would simply be downgrades into the Dash + a few recalls. I’m not saying it’s great. It blows. But nobody’s being forced onto unemployment this time around.

Simmer down, nobody’s talking about the working conditions at Encore.
I’m just going off the numbers I have heard/read. There’s 415 reductions happening at Mainline, while an increase of approximately 250 positions at Encore. Therefor there will be pilots on the street, whether they are because their bid didn’t include Encore doesn’t change anything. Saying “nobody’s going to the street that didn’t chose to go there” is completely delusional and something I’d expect to see from management.
These pilots are on the street because there is a reduction in positions are their employer, no different than any other employees around the world who have lost their jobs. Just because they had an opportunity to bid into a completely different employer/position but chose not to for whatever reason, doesn’t mean we should look at them any different. There could be a multitude of reasons for their decision.

Nobody's simmering dude. I'm just stating the facts. its easy to pretend that Encore doesn't exist and that position reductions at mainline = joining the bread line but that's just not true. And yes people certainly have every right to choose being unemployed over taking a downgrade to Encore. But that's their choice. Maybe they can make more in their side gig than working at Encore. Probably sadly the case. But the choice is theirs to make. Another fact is that their choice to leave has enabled some that were forced out to come back. And that's a good thing. So I stand by previous statement that nobody's being kicked to the unemployment line by force....this time. I'm not going to sit here and make this out to be a great moment because it's not. 415 fewer positions at mainline sucks moose balls! We all just got pushed far back from the return line to mainline. We should all be able to agree and hope that this is the last reduction due to covid.

Peace

Listen I’m not arguing with you, think whatever you want....
You’re missing the point, it’s not a “downgrade” to encore. These guys/gals are losing their jobs. Encore is not a common employer, as much as you want it to be it’s not. If they had not refused Encore someone else would have lost their jobs. The situation is irrelevant, you’re just looking like a d*ck saying it was their choice to join the unemployment line.

[altiplano]

I remember in the WJ/WJE flow discussion a couple years back there was a lot of debate if flow down was valid to pursue. What's the WJ pilot group opinion on it now?

Every person that does bump into WJE causes training and associated costs. Has to make WJ management take pause when they consider layoffs.

What's the approx# of layoffs that have chosen to bump down to Encore?

[tsgas]

I remember in the WJ/WJE flow discussion a couple years back there was a lot of debate if flow down was valid to pursue. What's the WJ pilot group opinion on it now?

Every person that does bump into WJE causes training and associated costs. Has to make WJ management take pause when they consider layoffs.

What's the approx# of layoffs that have chosen to bump down to Encore?

It would also cause management pause before expanding the flight sked at mainline.

[JBI]

Big company then all this would simply be downgrades into the Dash + a few recalls. I’m not saying it’s great. It blows. But nobody’s being forced onto unemployment this time around.

Maxpwr,

That's not quite correct. You are completely right in that the there have technically been the same number of recalls to Encore as bumpdowns from mainline so I definitely agree with you that it's not quite as bad as 415 full lay-offs. But there are still a not insignificant number of pilots both from mainline and Encore who will be forced into unemployment. There are some pilots slated to be laid off who do not have the seniority to hold a position at Encore. In addition, due to the changes in the number of positions in each base in recall bid at Encore, there are some people who cannot hold their current base and cannot afford to commute to a different base on an Encore FO salary (at lower MMG and commuting to YYC, they would literally be losing money when you factor in commuting costs, extra food, child care etc.). As well, a few Encore pilots who were on VLOs have bid to come back (as permitted by seniority) which will leave some others out on the street.

Definitely a lot less drastic than 415 full lay-offs, but there are people still being forced onto unemployment.

I honestly take no position on whether mainline/Swoop should take any mitigations this time around I can see the pros & cons for each position and it's not my argument to make. Just wanted to clarify.

[neophyte]

The comment regarding more commuters (and childcare) isn’t entirely true. There will simply be “new” commuters as previous pilots that chose to commute will be going back to a base that is also their domicile (not commuting for an FO spot)

Most of the new commuters will be older and their kids are old enough to make their own ramen.

[JBI]

The comment regarding more commuters (and childcare) isn’t entirely true. There will simply be “new” commuters as previous pilots that chose to commute will be going back to a base that is also their domicile (not commuting for an FO spot)

Most of the new commuters will be older and their kids are old enough to make their own ramen.

Sorry neophyte, should have clarified, I'm referring to some of the Encore pilots who are being newly laid off. The recall bid at Encore has a reduction in YYZ positions. There are a few who, in theory, could hold a FO spot but not in their base. This month's MMG at Encore will be 60 hours. Which, for some pilots, the monthly salary when you deduct taxes, commuting expenses and extra child care means they would have more money left at the each month of each month if they are on CEWs than working. While some pilots, in theory, are choosing to not commute, I'd still argue that they are being forced into unemployment.

I'd also argue that for some mainline/Swoop pilots who elected not to bump down into Encore are taking a lay-off due to similar economic circumstances/challenges. When you look at the opportunity cost for some, they have other options that make more sense for the use of their time.

Not saying it should change anyone's opinion, but it's not quite correct to say no pilots will be forced into unemployment. It's way less than 415, but some pilots will be forced into unemployment.

[Maxpwr]

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[Yycjetdriver]

Nobody's simmering dude. I'm just stating the facts. its easy to pretend that Encore doesn't exist and that position reductions at mainline = joining the bread line but that's just not true. And yes people certainly have every right to choose being unemployed over taking a downgrade to Encore. But that's their choice. Maybe they can make more in their side gig than working at Encore. Probably sadly the case. But the choice is theirs to make. Another fact is that their choice to leave has enabled some that were forced out to come back. And that's a good thing. So I stand by previous statement that nobody's being kicked to the unemployment line by force....this time. I'm not going to sit here and make this out to be a great moment because it's not. 415 fewer positions at mainline sucks moose balls! We all just got pushed far back from the return line to mainline. We should all be able to agree and hope that this is the last reduction due to covid.

Peace


‘Cept the hundreds of Encore pilots. Jackass.

Not sure why I deserve to be called a jackass. . What did I say against the hundreds of previously laid off Encore pilots? You’ll note that I was celebrating the return of some of the laid off Encore pilots.
Maybe you can enlighten me.

Seriously? You’re playing the victim now?
You made several posts about how Pilots who will be unemployed are only doing so under their own choice/decision. Obviously you’re pro Encore, but now that other pro Encore guys (JBI) call out your facts you decide to play the victim.....

[Maxpwr]

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[seriousflyer]

The way the company conducted the bids was highly controversial imo.

6-8 year seniority westjet pilots bid yyc/yyz captain at$82/hr, but they didn't bid yyc fo at $56/hr. The bid was run, and some couldn't hold captain so they go on furlough.
The following day (literally) encore announces a recall announcing 224 posistions with 86 yyc capt and 20 yyz capt, which any encore pilot could bid. So had the senior westjet pilots, mentioned above, bid FO on the first bid, the next day during the recall bid, could of bid yyc capt and be awarded a yyc captain position. So that is deceptive, confusing and unfair. All of this happened in a matter of 10 days...some pilots didn't know how to evaluate the bid operationally because of complete lack of information by the company.

We also have 2 year enocre FOs being recalled, while 10+ year westjet pilots are on furlough.

I'm sure the union MECs are well informed on these developments and tactics by the company and are evaluating responses.

there is still 2 weeks remaining on MOA, lots of items to discuss and lots and lots of training to coordinate.
This negotiation can't be over...or just maybe it is.


,

[George Taylor]

WestJet seems too focused on how to game the employees. They're giving up market share, canceling orders, while others are expanding and placing new orders.

[CaptainHaddock]

WestJet seems too focused on how to game the employees. They're giving up market share, canceling orders, while others are expanding and placing new orders.

That is so true George, they are so busy attacking all the employee groups.

[Yycjetdriver]

Layoff mitigation talks officially over unsuccessfully, the 415 layoffs/transfers to Encore will proceed.

[simply_no_one]

MEC Chair Recall
This week, an in-person special MEC meeting has been called for to take place in Calgary as soon as possible by the majority of MEC status reps. Details are still being determined and will be announced as soon as confirmed. Membership is encouraged to attend if able, understanding that spots will necessarily be limited due to Covid-19 safety restrictions. The agenda item will be the recall of the MEC Chair. The MEC Chair (as well as the Vice-Chair and Secretary/Treasurer) serves at the pleasure of the MEC status reps, just as status reps serve at the pleasure of the pilot membership.

With the majority of our status rep supporting the recall, this meeting will essentially be a formality. With this in mind I want our pilots to know it has been my honour to serve you these past almost four years, both as YYC Captain Rep and later as MEC Chair. It hasn’t always been easy, mistakes were made as we learned, and tough choices needed to be made at times in order to achieve the best outcomes we could. ALPA is a great organization that has the interests of our pilots at heart. We have come a long way, and I’m proud of what we have built here at WestJet. To work effectively, we need our pilots on property to continue to step up and volunteer their time and best efforts on behalf of your fellow pilots. There are a number of crucial positions that will become vacant on April 1st. We need engagement from our pilots to learn the process and keep all Association volunteers accountable to the membership and ensure good governance is always adhered to. This is your union, run by pilots for pilots.

I would like to thank you all for the opportunity you have given me. I continue to fully support our union and the volunteers that are working on behalf of our members.

Sincerely,

[Curiousflyer]

Layoff mitigation talks officially over unsuccessfully, the 415 layoffs/transfers to Encore will proceed.

A lot can happen in 2 weeks

[Yycjetdriver]

Layoff mitigation talks officially over unsuccessfully, the 415 layoffs/transfers to Encore will proceed.

A lot can happen in 2 weeks

Given today’s fast read it sounds like negotiations are finished.