More WJ layoffs

[Dias]

It should be up to the individual to decide if saving their job is worth whatever concessions come with it. Not even letting them have a say is treating them like children that need to be saved from themselves.

[ALPApolicy]

It should be up to the individual to decide if saving their job is worth whatever concessions come with it. Not even letting them have a say is treating them like children that need to be saved from themselves.

If that's what WE wanted as a group, then we should not have elected a bargaining representative under the Canada Labour Code. Because we have a bargaining agent, they are free to decide matters in our name, as long as they satisfy the Duty of Fair Representation. I tried to warn my colleagues about this, quite vigorously, on this forum and elsewhere, a few years back. I guess it is now a case of buyer's remorse for some.

I have made my peace with the ALPA and now want only that they follow their procedures. In this latest drama, we have seen some allegedly* in the hierarchy step outside the lines. That is not right and not fair.

I support our NC, and I support the right of the MEC (the body, NOT the Chair), to decide what is the best course of action. I am not in a position to judge. And I hold no personal malice towards any of my colleagues.

Let us move on quickly from this terrible episode and continue to learn how to function as a labour union.

*EDIT I added the word “allegedly”.

[sstaurus]

I am not in a position to judge.

And why not? As a paying dues member, you are free be heard and be happy or unhappy with how things went down.

[Mostly Harmless]

A distraction making true unemployment numbers stay hidden by funneling what would have been EI payments through CEWS? That's what I call it.

A correct answer. A rare event here on the Net. 100 internet points.

[ALPApolicy]

I cannot judge because I don’t have all the facts, or any of the facts. I don’t know what is true. And I don’t really care. I know that in all likelihood no one was out to screw anyone or anything on purpose. There likely were just lapses in judgment. I’m in no place to judge. I just want a union that more or less functions as is it supposed to. We are not there right now.

[simply_no_one]

It should be up to the individual to decide if saving their job is worth whatever concessions come with it. Not even letting them have a say is treating them like children that need to be saved from themselves.

Not really how unions work...

[bobcaygeon]

The best part is.....

3 of the 6 status reps that made the decision to not take this to the pilot group won their position by acclamation. No one gave a sh!t at the time and now it comes back to haunt everyone....... Rookie mistake for the WJ pilot group.

[cjet]

Doesn't haunt me. I'm losing my position and I'm very happy that the LEC stood up to WJ. I doesn't matter how they won their positions it's irrelevant.

CJet

[newlygrounded]

A distraction making true unemployment numbers stay hidden by funneling what would have been EI payments through CEWS? That's what I call it.

A correct answer. A rare event here on the Net. 100 internet points.

So what would you have preferred? Every is unhappy but nobody ever says what the fix would've been

[Zaibatsu]

A distraction making true unemployment numbers stay hidden by funneling what would have been EI payments through CEWS? That's what I call it.

So what would've been the right move?

Same thing but without the 75% topped at 575$/week; this is totally unfair for people who used to earn 10x more (they have contributed way more into income taxes). My friend in Europe getting is 4500€/month under the equivalent program...

Bring on the relief trucks....... lol. Let’s get Bob Geldof and Bono to sing we are the world to help someone who made several times his free-agent value get a little more than the mom and pop small businesses that are closing never to reopen.

How much does your friend pay in taxes compared to you?

Everyone hates socialism until they want a bloody handout.

[cloak]

A. Any contract, letter of agreement or letter of understanding that, in the opinion of the MEC, substantially affects the pay, working conditions, retirement, or career security of member pilots will be subject to membership ratification under the following terms and conditions:

(1) The MEC will, at its option, ballot the membership of their airline to determine if it is their desire to have membership ratification. Once membership ratification is established it will remain in effect until changed by another ballot of the membership through MEC action.

(2) Unless the membership is balloted, as described in Section 2A(1) of this Article, membership ratification of individual contracts and agreements will remain the option of the MEC.

Interestingly enough it does say under your own post number (1) that once a ratification is established, as in the last MOA, it remains in effect until a new ratification is done! Not to mention that a vote was promised in the last MOA. Not to mention that the decision was not unanimous. Not to mention the opening paragraph above regarding substantially affecting the membership, etc. And in a position of authority of just recently being acclaimed, one who is wise and a well wisher of all members would not wish to carry alone the burden of making such weighty decision, rather seek participation and involvement from as broad a base as possible. A vote would have been and remains the right thing to do. Let the members decide their own fate.

And yet MOA 1 was not voted on. This is undeniable proof that a vote is not mandatory. The MEC alone decides if an offer from the company will be brought to the membership for ratification. Otherwise, the Company will just submit lowball offer after lowball offer and if the majority are getting laid off, then then majority will accept the lowball offer.

Because there was no time in response to the pandemic; the membership made it clear that they wanted a vote and on important issues such as this, there should be a vote. Your argument is tantamount to saying that few sage (senior?) members know better to decide for the masses which apparently was the problem in the first place! Plus the same could be said about the senior group that if something favours them they will vote for it.

[ALPApolicy]

Interestingly enough it does say under your own post number (1) that once a ratification is established, as in the last MOA, it remains in effect until a new ratification is done! Not to mention that a vote was promised in the last MOA. Not to mention that the decision was not unanimous. Not to mention the opening paragraph above regarding substantially affecting the membership, etc. And in a position of authority of just recently being acclaimed, one who is wise and a well wisher of all members would not wish to carry alone the burden of making such weighty decision, rather seek participation and involvement from as broad a base as possible. A vote would have been and remains the right thing to do. Let the members decide their own fate.

And yet MOA 1 was not voted on. This is undeniable proof that a vote is not mandatory. The MEC alone decides if an offer from the company will be brought to the membership for ratification. Otherwise, the Company will just submit lowball offer after lowball offer and if the majority are getting laid off, then then majority will accept the lowball offer.

Because there was no time in response to the pandemic; the membership made it clear that they wanted a vote and on important issues such as this, there should be a vote. Your argument is tantamount to saying that few sage (senior?) members know better to decide for the masses which apparently was the problem in the first place! Plus the same could be said about the senior group that if something favours them they will vote for it.

My argument is not that at all. My argument is that ALPA has a system. The system seems to have been utilized. The 4 LEC reps out voted the 2 LEC reps. That's the system.

If we want to organize ourselves differently, we can.

Cheers

John

[Yycjetdriver]

And yet MOA 1 was not voted on. This is undeniable proof that a vote is not mandatory. The MEC alone decides if an offer from the company will be brought to the membership for ratification. Otherwise, the Company will just submit lowball offer after lowball offer and if the majority are getting laid off, then then majority will accept the lowball offer.

Because there was no time in response to the pandemic; the membership made it clear that they wanted a vote and on important issues such as this, there should be a vote. Your argument is tantamount to saying that few sage (senior?) members know better to decide for the masses which apparently was the problem in the first place! Plus the same could be said about the senior group that if something favours them they will vote for it.

My argument is not that at all. My argument is that ALPA has a system. The system seems to have been utilized. The 4 LEC reps out voted the 2 LEC reps. That's the system.

If we want to organize ourselves differently, we can.

Cheers

John

While the system has worked as it’s designed to, I find it concerning the division it’s creating among the groups. Forming an us against them mentality between the 3 membership groups.
While it has benefited the more senior bases in this instance, down the road when/if Pilots numbers return to 2019 levels the junior/yyz members could have their chance at “payback”. The company will also likely exploit this.

[Mach1]

While it has benefited the more senior bases in this instance, down the road when/if Pilots numbers return to 2019 levels the junior/yyz members could have their chance at “payback”. The company will also likely exploit this.

It took many people years to get their first job in aviation. Sometimes, years after that to touch an airplane. Then more years to even hope for an interview with an airline. How long did it take you to get to the airlines? If it was fast, it wasn't because you are special, it's because you were born in the correct year. Winning the birth lottery, if you will. Perhaps it wasn't an easy road for you. I don't know, it's not important. What is concerning to me is the statement you made about payback. Extremely shortsighted and self-indulgent. One day, you will be the senior person and you will want some things for yourself because you've walked a long road to get there and you have precious few years left in your career to make up for the bad times you may or may not have gone through for 10-20 years to get to that airline and begin earning real money. If you want people to look out for you because you are junior, you had better be willing to sacrifice for those senior people as well. It can't always be all about you.

[ALPApolicy]

Because there was no time in response to the pandemic; the membership made it clear that they wanted a vote and on important issues such as this, there should be a vote. Your argument is tantamount to saying that few sage (senior?) members know better to decide for the masses which apparently was the problem in the first place! Plus the same could be said about the senior group that if something favours them they will vote for it.

My argument is not that at all. My argument is that ALPA has a system. The system seems to have been utilized. The 4 LEC reps out voted the 2 LEC reps. That's the system.

If we want to organize ourselves differently, we can.

Cheers

John

While the system has worked as it’s designed to, I find it concerning the division it’s creating among the groups. Forming an us against them mentality between the 3 membership groups.
While it has benefited the more senior bases in this instance, down the road when/if Pilots numbers return to 2019 levels the junior/yyz members could have their chance at “payback”. The company will also likely exploit this.

If people want to carry a resentment for that long, who am I to get in their way?

Life goes on.

Cheers,

John

[Oscar]

I find it concerning the division it’s creating among the groups

The primary reason the 4 western LEC voted down the last "offer" was solely based on the unscrupulous manner in which the MEC Chair and the Grievance Chair went around the NC to conduct a backdoor deal with the company. The 4 LEC voted down the company's backdoor offer based on principle, and as a result of standing up for the pilot group, they have suffered immense character assassination and abuse. The MEC chair should be ashamed of himself for asking the Grievance chair to act on his behalf in bypassing the NC. The best thing he could do now would be resign and save the membership from any further damage. The 4 western LEC are not acting out in defiance of the eastern LEC or anyone else. There exists no place in our union system where this kind of "backroom deal" behavior can be accepted or tolerated. If the company actually bargained in good faith with the NC to arrive at this deal, the 4 western LEC would have voted to present it to the pilot group for ratification. It's because of the MEC & Grievance Chair's actions that we have not come to an agreement already. We should all be thanking the 4 LEC for their incredible moral compass and strong will to serve and protect the interests of their membership.

[George Taylor]

I find it concerning the division it’s creating among the groups

The primary reason the 4 western LEC voted down the last "offer" was solely based on the unscrupulous manner in which the MEC Chair and the Grievance Chair went around the NC to conduct a backdoor deal with the company. The 4 LEC voted down the company's backdoor offer based on principle, and as a result of standing up for the pilot group, they have suffered immense character assassination and abuse. The MEC chair should be ashamed of himself for asking the Grievance chair to act on his behalf in bypassing the NC. The best thing he could do now would be resign and save the membership from any further damage. The 4 western LEC are not acting out in defiance of the eastern LEC or anyone else. There exists no place in our union system where this kind of "backroom deal" behavior can be accepted or tolerated. If the company actually bargained in good faith with the NC to arrive at this deal, the 4 western LEC would have voted to present it to the pilot group for ratification. It's because of the MEC & Grievance Chair's actions that we have not come to an agreement already. We should all be thanking the 4 LEC for their incredible moral compass and strong will to serve and protect the interests of their membership.

100%

[hurtin'albertan]

I find it concerning the division it’s creating among the groups

The primary reason the 4 western LEC voted down the last "offer" was solely based on the unscrupulous manner in which the MEC Chair and the Grievance Chair went around the NC to conduct a backdoor deal with the company. The 4 LEC voted down the company's backdoor offer based on principle, and as a result of standing up for the pilot group, they have suffered immense character assassination and abuse. The MEC chair should be ashamed of himself for asking the Grievance chair to act on his behalf in bypassing the NC. The best thing he could do now would be resign and save the membership from any further damage. The 4 western LEC are not acting out in defiance of the eastern LEC or anyone else. There exists no place in our union system where this kind of "backroom deal" behavior can be accepted or tolerated. If the company actually bargained in good faith with the NC to arrive at this deal, the 4 western LEC would have voted to present it to the pilot group for ratification. It's because of the MEC & Grievance Chair's actions that we have not come to an agreement already. We should all be thanking the 4 LEC for their incredible moral compass and strong will to serve and protect the interests of their membership.

100%

Cool story bro, but incorrect.

Go read the two western LEC emails again, and pay attention to the dates and how things went down. They voted against the most recent company offer on March 9, 4-2. They had another meeting on the 12 to discuss the same offer. Their email states they were not aware of the origin story of the final offer until late in the evening on the 12th. They didn't vote to not bring it to the pilots because of how the offer came to be.

From what I'm told by several people supposedly in the know is they originally voted against letting the pilots see it (on Mar 9) to call the company's bluff. They doubled down on the 12, then found out about the backroom bs.

[elite]

...My argument is that ALPA has a system. The system seems to have been utilized. The 4 LEC reps out voted the 2 LEC reps. That's the system.

If we want to organize ourselves differently, we can. ..

You may find some day, if not already, that moving forward that is a good idea. At Canada 3000 ALPA over promised and under delivered by a long shot and when dues stopped coming in they left and shut down the pilot assistance web site! During the pandemic when everyone has had to take less, from companies to staff, has ALPA given a break on their dues by stopping it or reducing the percentage for a few months?

As for your LEC reps voting on principle, wouldn’t it have been more in line with principle to judge the offer based on its merit and benefits to the membership and then deal with how it was brought forward and allow discipline to take place transparently as needed?

[ALPApolicy]

...My argument is that ALPA has a system. The system seems to have been utilized. The 4 LEC reps out voted the 2 LEC reps. That's the system.

If we want to organize ourselves differently, we can. ..

You may find some day, if not already, that moving forward that is a good idea. At Canada 3000 ALPA over promised and under delivered by a long shot and when dues stopped coming in they left and shut down the pilot assistance web site! During the pandemic when everyone has had to take less, from companies to staff, has ALPA given a break on their dues by stopping it or reducing the percentage for a few months?

As for your LEC reps voting on principle, wouldn’t it have been more in line with principle to judge the offer based on its merit and benefits to the membership and then deal with how it was brought forward and allow discipline to take place transparently as needed?

I was with C3 when it closed. I remember the ALPA story but in their defense they weren't on property long, and there wasn't much to be done when everything closed.

ALPA has a system, and as long it is free from arbitrary, discriminatory, and bad faith means, then they have fulfilled the Duty of Fair Representation both at law, and by statute. If some are unhappy with the process, then get involved and/or attempt to change the system.

There is no way to keep everyone happy. In any endeavour.

[dialdriver]

The primary reason the 4 western LEC voted down the last "offer" was solely based on the unscrupulous manner in which the MEC Chair and the Grievance Chair went around the NC to conduct a backdoor deal with the company. The 4 LEC voted down the company's backdoor offer based on principle, and as a result of standing up for the pilot group, they have suffered immense character assassination and abuse. The MEC chair should be ashamed of himself for asking the Grievance chair to act on his behalf in bypassing the NC. The best thing he could do now would be resign and save the membership from any further damage. The 4 western LEC are not acting out in defiance of the eastern LEC or anyone else. There exists no place in our union system where this kind of "backroom deal" behavior can be accepted or tolerated. If the company actually bargained in good faith with the NC to arrive at this deal, the 4 western LEC would have voted to present it to the pilot group for ratification. It's because of the MEC & Grievance Chair's actions that we have not come to an agreement already. We should all be thanking the 4 LEC for their incredible moral compass and strong will to serve and protect the interests of their membership.

100%

Cool story bro, but incorrect.

Go read the two western LEC emails again, and pay attention to the dates and how things went down. They voted against the most recent company offer on March 9, 4-2. They had another meeting on the 12 to discuss the same offer. Their email states they were not aware of the origin story of the final offer until late in the evening on the 12th. They didn't vote to not bring it to the pilots because of how the offer came to be.

From what I'm told by several people supposedly in the know is they originally voted against letting the pilots see it (on Mar 9) to call the company's bluff. They doubled down on the 12, then found out about the backroom bs.

MEC Reps and Officers acting outside the constitution can find themselves personally liable for their actions.

[ALPApolicy]

MEC Reps and Officers acting outside the constitution can find themselves personally liable for their actions.

A point I repeatedly made with respect to the violation of the Constitution & Bylaws with respect to the issue of seniority and Encore pilots carrying their DOH (absent a merger, of course) when they flowed to mainline. That horse has been flogged enough.

With that said, I haven’t heard of anything that even comes close to being a violation of the Constitution in this latest episode. I think the MEC Chair should go, but for reasons of leadership. It sounds like a majority of LEC reps feel the same way but my information is 8th hand and not current. The Grievance Committee Chair, meh...whatever the MEC feels is best will be his fate.

[RRJetPilot]

Unfortunately for the company they cant keep their hands hidden much longer.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/westjet-rei ... -1.1581590

[pacman007]

I have no idea how many pilots are left at WestJet, but when travel restrictions are lifted things won’t open one route at a time. There will be a flood of people wanted to travel! So hopefully WestJet is ready. With there complex system of bump down and recall, every time they need a pilot at WestJet it will take from another one of their own companies. So just imagine if they need to recall 100 pilots because of demand. Where will they get them and how can they do it. Just doesn’t make sense to me.

[Yycjetdriver]

Unfortunately for the company they cant keep their hands hidden much longer.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/westjet-rei ... -1.1581590

100%

Several federal politicians have been on record saying they hope Canada wide travel/domestic tourism can return to normal beginning Canada day. The fact Westjet is resuming these routes the week before, could mean they’ve been told more than the rest of us.