mid 50's CPL advice

[Gowyn]

Some advice please.

Next year I'm planning on retiring from the fire department of twenty nine years. Just finishing off my CPL now and my original plan was to get my instructor rating next and teach in my retirement.

So before I lay out $10k on it just curious as to other "career" options that may be open to me. Would love to fly floats or MNR stuff but there is no way that will happen. By the time I have enough hours I'll be 70....haha.

I know with the ongoing COVID climate jobs are far and few between plus it would be unfair of me to compete with all the new young CPL kids out there, after all I'll be doing this for fun and not a career per se.

Just considering options before moving into the instructor training. While on the subject of training at some point I would like to get the INRAT. Multi would be fun but to be quite honest I doubt if it would be worth it. Even at a school I'm sure the owners would prefer instructors with twin time to instruct on it.

Would I be better off getting the instrument before instructor or vice versa? Originally I was thinking instructor then just pick up the INRAT while teaching.

I'll be in the fortunate position where I will be flying for the love of it and not a source of income...

[frog]

I would go for the instructor rating, start to teach and then do the other ratings like INRAT ME.

A school will love someone mature teaching GS, staying around for years. Of course you can go all the way to the Class 1 instructor rating.
The schools will love you even more, let you teach multi engine etc...

[Stu Pidasso]

Which part of the country are you in Gowyn? Good instructors are hard to find, one that isn't simply padding their own log book for PIC time (milking the students finances.) The Pilots shortage will be back and Instructors will be in demand. Personally I would stay a thousand miles away from the schools doing foreign students, but maybe that is just me.

[kilocharliemike]

I am an old guy and my motto has always really been "do fun shit"! If your pension is sweet and this is not for the money, get your license and do some fire patrol, its low time, PIC hours and I would so hire you with your background.

my 2 cents

KCM

[Gowyn]

I would go for the instructor rating, start to teach and then do the other ratings like INRAT ME.

A school will love someone mature teaching GS, staying around for years. Of course you can go all the way to the Class 1 instructor rating.
The schools will love you even more, let you teach multi engine etc...

Thank you. This was/is my initial plan. Funny, when I first looked at a couple of schools one wanted me to call and chat with someone, did so and ended up having several lunch "dates." Felt like job interviews....haha. Turns out he was the school president.

Currently there finishing off my CPL.

[digits_]

I don't know of any succesful instructors that started flying in their 50s. That doesn't mean it can't be done, and I haven't met Gowyn, so this is not directed at him personally. I have had 2 older instructors, who only started flying themselves at a later age. None were really great instructors. A very limited sample, I'm aware. But come to think about it, I've never met any other ones in that category. Not sure why, but something to consider.

It might have something to do with life experience. Younger instructors seem to have a bit more fear of regulations and doing everything by the book. Even older instructors who have been flying as a career, are more aware of the negative consequences of breaching regulations nowadays. Older people just starting out, seem to have a bit more of a relaxed attitude, less fear if you wish, of the regulator. They've been through more, they've seen more, and may not be aware of how your actions in aviation can be scrutinized by pretty much anyone.

It might have something to do with trying to be too nice to your younger students. You might have taken longer than average -which would make sense biologically- to achieve the flying skills. Now you are teaching a young student and you want to help him more than he needs, because you might be projecting your struggles onto them.

Maybe older and wiser people are a bit more risk averse. This could result in them becoming an instructor who's very eager to jump on the controls when small mistakes happen. Determining how far you can let your student go before things are getting too risky, is fairly hard to judge when starting out. When developing this skill when older, it might take longer, and cause some unhappy students.

Or maybe instructors starting out at an older age aren't too happy with the salaries offered, and thus rarely stick with it. Not sure.

I'd recommend looking at the instructor pool at the schools where you are contemplating working, and see if they have ever hired instructors who started out later in life. Maybe talk to a few if you can find them, or to the local CFI.

I'm not trying to be negative. People rarely have unique experiences, so chances are someone else might have the same experiences or impressions as me. Or maybe not. The thing is, if they do think you won't be a good fit just because of your age, they won't tell it to your face, so be careful before spending a bunch of money on a job you might never get.

Either way, good luck with your plans, I hope it works out for you!

[Gowyn]

Which part of the country are you in Gowyn? Good instructors are hard to find, one that isn't simply padding their own log book for PIC time (milking the students finances.) The Pilots shortage will be back and Instructors will be in demand. Personally I would stay a thousand miles away from the schools doing foreign students, but maybe that is just me.

I initially went back to the school where I did my PPL. Different owners and a different feel, no longer the "Flying Club" atmosphere I remembered.

I ended up at DFC (CYXU) a large school hosting both university and college students. Fortunately I opted to fly the DA40 a more expensive per hour aircraft and less in demand.

The nice thing about retiring I can go anywhere. Last year we sold our house and are just renting until we figure out where we would like to retire. Ideally I would like somewhere scenic, small and quiet, another flying club would be nice.

I'm actually quite excited to teach. I started off navigating in the navy with Omega and Loran-C. I find VOR intercepts a doddle, weird I know. Started flying pre GPS. That was probably the hardest adjustment getting used to the Glass cockpit....haha. Over the years I've been a driving instructor and I do a LOT of training at the FD. During the CPL training the biggest thing I've learnt is I have SO MUCH more to learn, love it.

[Gowyn]

I am an old guy and my motto has always really been "do fun shit"! If your pension is sweet and this is not for the money, get your license and do some fire patrol, its low time, PIC hours and I would so hire you with your background.

my 2 cents

KCM

Thanks KCM, very encouraging. Yep sweet pension for sure...

[sjatana]

I switched careers and went the instructing route. CPL + Instructor rating while holding off on the Group 1 until I had some time in the logbook. This worked out well for me.

You won't be teaching Multi IFR at most places as a fresh instructor.

I think you'd have a great shot at being an instructor with some life experience under your belt. 50 is not old.

Congratulations on a successful career as a firefighter and a new chapter in your life towards aviation. Hit me up via PM if you need anything.

Cheers.

[Gowyn]

I don't know of any succesful instructors that started flying in their 50s. That doesn't mean it can't be done, and I haven't met Gowyn, so this is not directed at him personally. I have had 2 older instructors, who only started flying themselves at a later age. None were really great instructors. A very limited sample, I'm aware. But come to think about it, I've never met any other ones in that category. Not sure why, but something to consider.

It might have something to do with life experience. Younger instructors seem to have a bit more fear of regulations and doing everything by the book. Even older instructors who have been flying as a career, are more aware of the negative consequences of breaching regulations nowadays. Older people just starting out, seem to have a bit more of a relaxed attitude, less fear if you wish, of the regulator. They've been through more, they've seen more, and may not be aware of how your actions in aviation can be scrutinized by pretty much anyone.

It might have something to do with trying to be too nice to your younger students. You might have taken longer than average -which would make sense biologically- to achieve the flying skills. Now you are teaching a young student and you want to help him more than he needs, because you might be projecting your struggles onto them.

Maybe older and wiser people are a bit more risk averse. This could result in them becoming an instructor who's very eager to jump on the controls when small mistakes happen. Determining how far you can let your student go before things are getting too risky, is fairly hard to judge when starting out. When developing this skill when older, it might take longer, and cause some unhappy students.

Or maybe instructors starting out at an older age aren't too happy with the salaries offered, and thus rarely stick with it. Not sure.

I'd recommend looking at the instructor pool at the schools where you are contemplating working, and see if they have ever hired instructors who started out later in life. Maybe talk to a few if you can find them, or to the local CFI.

I'm not trying to be negative. People rarely have unique experiences, so chances are someone else might have the same experiences or impressions as me. Or maybe not. The thing is, if they do think you won't be a good fit just because of your age, they won't tell it to your face, so be careful before spending a bunch of money on a job you might never get.

Either way, good luck with your plans, I hope it works out for you!

Thank you, some very good points you bring up.

I won't address them individually but put it this way. If I believe I can't help someone and am not up to the job I won't do it. I'm my biggest critic and am not about to waste anyones time or endanger them in any regard.

My careers up to this point have all been very serious and dangerous jobs. Safety is paramount, training is the backbone and practice and experience are what make you better and keep you alive.

One reason I stopped flying back in the 80's was I didn't think I was good enough. I figured I had to be a "Top Gun" to be a good pilot. Now I realize that anyone can be a pilot, people learn at different rates and different ways. Only thing is not everyone SHOULD be a pilot. During my training I've made mistakes, glad I did because I learned from them, experience. Hopefully I can pass along some of that experience or at least identify with someone experiencing it for themselves.

I did chuckle at your statement about being too nice to students. I'm one of those guys to look at people are scared of...haha. Have to be sometimes when dealing with people when I need immediate compliance to save lives.

Thanks again

[PilotDAR]

Hmmm... Also retired from firefighting, 27 years as a volunteer. And yes, I used Omega, and Loran C before GPS existed. We navigated Transatlantic westbound in a Twin Otter with Omega, and eastbound in a Cessna 303 with Loran C. But, I digress...

Experienced instructors are in demand. To make yourself valuable as an instructor, get some varied experience for yourself, so you're instructing both to the curriculum, and because you understand why. You did lots of actual zero vis searches crawling on your belly, and some innovative auto ex cutting and spreading before you started teaching it, 'same with flying instruction. We teach a curriculum to a standard, in firefighting and in aviation, but it really helps to have some real world experience behind you, which you know....

I recall one of my recurrent CPR sessions being taught by an instructor who really did not seem to understand what was involved in doing CPR beyond the basics. I asked him how many times he'd done actual CPR - zero times. I explained that I had initiated solo CPR four times, and it was not as simple as he was teaching. Sure, the book says to ABC, but there are a lot more letters in there too, and understanding some of them really helps you answer your student's questions with the experience you would like to pass along - 'same with flight instruction....

Pursue your goal, though give yourself some time to build experience before instructing.

[Gowyn]

Hmmm... Also retired from firefighting, 27 years as a volunteer. And yes, I used Omega, and Loran C before GPS existed. We navigated Transatlantic westbound in a Twin Otter with Omega, and eastbound in a Cessna 303 with Loran C. But, I digress...

Experienced instructors are in demand. To make yourself valuable as an instructor, get some varied experience for yourself, so you're instructing both to the curriculum, and because you understand why. You did lots of actual zero vis searches crawling on your belly, and some innovative auto ex cutting and spreading before you started teaching it, 'same with flying instruction. We teach a curriculum to a standard, in firefighting and in aviation, but it really helps to have some real world experience behind you, which you know....

I recall one of my recurrent CPR sessions being taught by an instructor who really did not seem to understand what was involved in doing CPR beyond the basics. I asked him how many times he'd done actual CPR - zero times. I explained that I had initiated solo CPR four times, and it was not as simple as he was teaching. Sure, the book says to ABC, but there are a lot more letters in there too, and understanding some of them really helps you answer your student's questions with the experience you would like to pass along - 'same with flight instruction....

Pursue your goal, though give yourself some time to build experience before instructing.

Thank you. Yes having the flying experience actually is a concern for me, would love to gain some experience but not sure how. One of the reasons I broached this topic.

Yep the CPR training is always interesting. Had to do a CPR course with my daughter, she wanted company. It was painful. In the end I had to explain to the instructor what it was really like to perform CPR but kudos to her for teaching it though.

[PilotDAR]

Yes having the flying experience actually is a concern for me, would love to gain some experience but not sure how.

A good start is a number of longer adventure cross country trips (multi day) so you have to "deal" with things which come up!

[frog]

Long cross countries are quiet expensive, but they're a lot of fun !
These were the best time of my time building.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I recall one of my recurrent CPR sessions being taught by an instructor who really did not seem to understand what was involved in doing CPR beyond the basics. I asked him how many times he'd done actual CPR - zero times. I explained that I had initiated solo CPR four times, and it was not as simple as he was teaching. Sure, the book says to ABC, but there are a lot more letters in there too, and understanding some of them really helps you answer your student's questions with the experience you would like to pass along - 'same with flight instruction....

Yep the CPR training is always interesting. Had to do a CPR course with my daughter, she wanted company. It was painful. In the end I had to explain to the instructor what it was really like to perform CPR but kudos to her for teaching it though.

On the other hand - CPR training needs to be simple enough that a fellow such as myself can remember it, and remember it well, the third year after his recurrent. Some people never keep current and one day find they need something they learned a decade ago. It needs to be dead simple, or people are too afraid to actually use their CPR training, or waste too much time trying to figure it out when it matters.

I would imagine flight training has a similar issue. Many people will be flying ten hours a year (people may argue that they then shouldn't be flying at all, but that's beside my point). Some things need to be so dead simple that those people can remember them decades later without issue.

For what it's worth Gowyn, you are exactly the kind of person I was looking for when I started looking for an instructor a year or so ago - someone who's not looking for hours, but teaching for the sheer joy and fulfillment he/she gets from teaching.

[lownslow]

If not instructing, take a look at local charter or corporate flying and see if someone has a King Air or PC-12. Their clients often prefer seeing pilots who look old enough to shave and this can be an industry back door for more mature CPLs.

[PilotDAR]

CPR training needs to be simple enough that a fellow such as myself can remember it, and remember it well,........
I would imagine flight training has a similar issue.

And this is the key. An instructor who is only just able to articulate the topic may lack the knowledge and experience to teach where a skill can be simplified, or accomplished with lesser precision, while focusing on those skills which require precision all the time - and the reason why! Priorities are an element of this. I was trained that while doing CPR, you may break ribs (it's true). No great, but if you save the life, it was worth it. An experienced instructor will train you that you may have to deliberately crash or ditch your plane, at risk to you, to prevent risk to people on the ground. Overlaying life experience to a skill will improve the broader understanding of that skill.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I was trained that while doing CPR, you may break ribs (it's true). No great, but if you save the life, it was worth it.

Off topic now, but the way I was trained, if you don't break a rib or two, you're doing it wrong.

[PilotDAR]

I don't know if I was doing CPR right or wrong, but I never got anyone back - so I focused on flying, and left CPR to the experts as often as I could! Happily, I'm way better commenting piloting on an aviation forum, than making any comment on a medical forum - so I'm here!

[digits_]

I was trained that while doing CPR, you may break ribs (it's true). No great, but if you save the life, it was worth it.

Off topic now, but the way I was trained, if you don't break a rib or two, you're doing it wrong.

That's why I always carry a hammer in my first aid kit.

[Gowyn]

This is awesome guys thank you all

For CPR I’m glad there is something out there for people to learn. It’s not difficult at all, very hard work actually but in certain circumstances it can help. The Vinnie Jones CPR video online covers it all and is probably the best I’ve seen.

I can’t even begin to count how many times I’ve done it. As for the number of saves, who knows, we never hear but I don’t do this job to be a hero.

I truly feel I will have something to offer students. I wish there could be more real life flying experience though but who knows what will happen. Like it’s been said before networking is huge in this field. I just assumed with my age and low hours the best I could hope for would be instructing and I’m more than fine with that

Nothing better than teaching someone something and seeing that light bulb go off when they “get it.”

[frog]

Also, the best way to learn is to teach !