CDC release study on masks during covid. Efficacy is 0.5-1.9 percent.

[montado]

May we live in interesting times.

We live in very interesting times. Call the Police. She is a Science Follower.

What do you think the science would say if these two dumb dumbs would have just kept their mouths shut? Would you say a 99 percent less chance of covid spread if they just shut up? Clearly covid was spreading rampant for a few moments. I could even see covid ridden tears dripping into her mask which she was later going to touch and not wash her hands.

[Inverted2]

May we live in interesting times.

We live in very interesting times. Call the Police. She is a Science Follower.

What do you think the science would say if these two dumb dumbs would have just kept their mouths shut? Would you say a 99 percent less chance of covid spread if they just shut up? Clearly covid was spreading rampant for a few moments. I could even see covid ridden tears dripping into her mask which she was later going to touch and not wash her hands.

I think she forgot her happy pills. Should have tried to give her a big hug.

[shimmydampner]

a bunch of healthcare workers have declined the vaccine

Fire them. All of them. With extreme prejudice.

I'm usually an ardent supporter of personal freedom regardless of consequence, but not with people who can't seem to grasp the idea that healthcare is supposed to stop further spread. These people are selfish, misinformed, and dangerous. I don't care if you have a religious or moral or health exemption to vaccine requirements. If you can't or won't be vaccinated, stay out of the fucking hospitals. Fire them. All of them. With extreme prejudice.

This seems like an unnecessarily harsh, emotional response, especially considering that, at last check, it's still unclear how effective the various vaccines are at preventing transmission. Not to mention, health care professionals are no doubt, all wearing masks that are supposed to protect others from covid transmission. I don't think it's appropriate to take away a health care professional's ability to earn a living based on their being uncomfortable with putting an untested substance into their body, the long term effects of which are unknown. I would be far more concerned about a reality in which people could be compelled under any circumstances to be injected with such a substance, than a bad cold pandemic.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Fire them. All of them. With extreme prejudice.

I'm usually an ardent supporter of personal freedom regardless of consequence, but not with people who can't seem to grasp the idea that healthcare is supposed to stop further spread. These people are selfish, misinformed, and dangerous. I don't care if you have a religious or moral or health exemption to vaccine requirements. If you can't or won't be vaccinated, stay out of the fucking hospitals. Fire them. All of them. With extreme prejudice.

This seems like an unnecessarily harsh, emotional response, especially considering that, at last check, it's still unclear how effective the various vaccines are at preventing transmission. Not to mention, health care professionals are no doubt, all wearing masks that are supposed to protect others from covid transmission. I don't think it's appropriate to take away a health care professional's ability to earn a living based on their being uncomfortable with putting an untested substance into their body, the long term effects of which are unknown. I would be far more concerned about a reality in which people could be compelled under any circumstances to be injected with such a substance, than a bad cold pandemic.

Well it's harsh and certainly comes from an emotional place instead of a logical one, I'll grant you that. And I too am concerned about living in a society in which we are forced to vaccinate instead of encouraged to by way of informed opinion. It sets a dangerous precedent.

But let's at least allow me to be precise. I do think they should all be summarily fired, however that doesn't mean they can never work in healthcare again. I have no issue with unvaccinated doctors and nurses working outside of direct patient care. But keep them out of the hospitals, care homes, and ambulances. They can find another job. So I'm not arguing the complete revocation of professional privileges. The best aviation comparison I can think of would be "with or as co-pilot" - potentially very damaging, early in one's career (although it's not the best comparison).

If I went into the hospital for a broken leg, and came out with malaria, I would sue. I don't think many would disagree with that sentiment, and I would do the exact same if it was Covid instead.

[shimmydampner]

Well it's harsh and certainly comes from an emotional place instead of a logical one, I'll grant you that.

Surely it would be preferable that government mandates and policies are rooted firmly in logic rather than emotion, especially where people's livelihoods are concerned, would it not?

That being said, the handling of this pandemic seems to have been based mostly on emotion (fear) thus far. It would be a nice change of pace if some logic were applied.

So, in the absence of evidence that the vaccines stop transmission, and with the understanding that forced vaccinations are far too dangerous a precedent to set, what is your basis for summarily firing these health care professionals? You've explained what you think should be done, but not why. To follow your aviation analogy, it would be akin to you being fired for refusing to fly an untested, experimental aircraft.

[montado]

Not it would be like a stranger he doesn’t know getting fired for not flying the experimental aircraft. Thats why he doesn’t give a shit, because he is happy to make rules for others that don’t necessarily apply to him.

This whole pandemic has amplified how many believe they should be able to enforce their values on others, and they don’t value freedom. It started with a mask... the mask used to be called PPE, but they changed the masks into protect everyone else equipment. And so began this cycle of if what you are doing might affect my life, then I should have a say and control over what you do with your life.

Why don’t we just make more rules and take away more freedom. People drinking alcohol could effect me... I think I should be able to have a say in whether or not other people should be allowed to drink alcohol.

[ReserveTank]

May we live in interesting times.

We live in very interesting times. Call the Police. She is a Science Follower.

LOL. This is exactly how I view the pro-masker crowd. Toss a few basic facts at them and they have a nuclear meltdown. I love it.

[montado]

It’s been over a month now. Can anyone explain to me why having no mandatory mask policy in Texas has not really budged any trends? Anything? Anyone? Dare we say, masks must be more useless than many people think? If you are not convinced we should change our stance on masks, then I have to ask what does it take to change your mind? And I’m not saying don’t wear a mask, I’m just saying people should have a choice, and also businesses should also be able to make their own house rules. My only solid opinion is that blanket mandatory mask policy is not effective and should be lifted.

DECB012C-414E-4D1C-8511-7BCE4681C47E.jpeg (180.88 KiB) Viewed 1905 times

[rookiepilot]

Well, a co-worker of a good friend of mine --a nurse -- was just lost to Covid. 40 years old, absolutely no pre existing health conditions. They are in shock at the Toronto area hospital.

Keep telling me how fake all of this is, and the hospitals are empty.

[montado]

Well, a co-worker of a good friend of mine --a nurse -- was just lost to Covid. 40 years old, absolutely no pre existing health conditions. They are in shock at the Toronto area hospital.

Keep telling me how fake all of this is, and the hospitals are empty.

Very sad to lose a life at that age.

So does this prove to you that masks work and we should all wear mask?

I never have said covid is fake. I have said most of the policies around it are political. I also said the most high risk groups are ltc and HCWs. But no... people don’t listen... people like rockie say we all need to wear a mask and comply with the politics. How have any of these politically charged fake health measures helped people like this 40 year old who has passed away. They haven’t helped. These measures have not been about our health. If you have followed my comments I have said we should be paying HCWs more, and keeping them isolated from the public to prevent spread. I had many ideas of effective ways to prevent covid spread. Usually I am met with resistance as it’s all misinformation and apparently not following science. You should go ask the colleagues what they think of Doug ford and his policies. That is where my finger has been pointing from day one. I have never been blaming fellow citizens, because that is not the problem.

So while these stories are sad, it doesn’t surprise me. We can all keep wearing masks and just as many people will keep dying of covid. Anecdotal emotionally charged posts don’t equate to science. There are logical answers outside the realms of fear and political garbage. Very frustrating to sit here and continue to watch this unfold, but no one seems interested in truth.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Well, a co-worker of a good friend of mine --a nurse -- was just lost to Covid. 40 years old, absolutely no pre existing health conditions. They are in shock at the Toronto area hospital.

Keep telling me how fake all of this is, and the hospitals are empty.

I am sorry for your loss, Rookie. Truly. But it's not impossible that while Covid is real, lockdowns and masks aren't the answer. I don't agree with that, but I've been known to be wrong once in a blue moon

Surely it would be preferable that government mandates and policies are rooted firmly in logic rather than emotion, especially where people's livelihoods are concerned, would it not?

That being said, the handling of this pandemic seems to have been based mostly on emotion (fear) thus far. It would be a nice change of pace if some logic were applied.

So, in the absence of evidence that the vaccines stop transmission, and with the understanding that forced vaccinations are far too dangerous a precedent to set, what is your basis for summarily firing these health care professionals? You've explained what you think should be done, but not why. To follow your aviation analogy, it would be akin to you being fired for refusing to fly an untested, experimental aircraft.

A few good points there. While I have solid evidence that vaccines stop death (look to Ontario's long term care home death rates before and after vaccinations - that's pretty solid evidence), I have none yet that suggests they stop transmission. It does follow that if you're preventing death you're therefore preventing transmission, but the data isn't in yet on transmission. It is an assumption on my part; I can see a logical path that follows from reduction in deaths to reduction in transmission.

My argument does rely on assuming that vaccines reduce transmission, and I will grant you that at this time, that is an assumption, although a logical one in my view. If one accepts that assumption, then it is not a stretch to request that healthcare professionals are vaccinated, as part of their professional duty to reduce the transmission of disease. A bit of a stretch perhaps to consider vaccine refusal to be a dereliction of duty, but not in my view.

As for the untested airplane analogy, that's a better analogy than I came up with. In both cases the professionals in question would have a reasonable body of knowledge on the subject. But your argument falls apart when I refuse to fly a plane that has been certified as safe. The vaccines have been approved by Health Canada. They have been tested, but not to your preferred metric. If I refused to fly a certified airplane that I nonetheless considered to be still experimental, I would be rightly fired.

Not it would be like a stranger he doesn’t know getting fired for not flying the experimental aircraft. Thats why he doesn’t give a shit, because he is happy to make rules for others that don’t necessarily apply to him.

<snip>

Why don’t we just make more rules and take away more freedom. People drinking alcohol could effect me... I think I should be able to have a say in whether or not other people should be allowed to drink alcohol.

First of all, do not assume I don't care about the loss of their job. I said I don't care about the reasons. I did not say I don't care about the repercussions of such a policy. You inferred that, and I did not intend to imply it.

And yes, people drinking alcohol does affect you. That's why driving and flying drunk are both crimes. Hell, piloting my 14' tin can fishing boat drunk is a crime, for the same reason.

(with apologies to montado, I edited my post after he quoted me)

[montado]

First of all, do not assume I don't care. You inferred that, and I did not intend to imply it.

And yes, people drinking alcohol does affect you. That's why driving and flying drunk are both crimes.

No I said drinking should be banned all together. Because anyone could potentially drink and drive, or become violent etc.

Just like masks should be mandatory because you might have covid even tough you probably don’t.

See when you drink you probably won’t drive like 99 percent of us... but it’s not enough to say drinking and driving is a crime, we just need to make it a crime to drink, period. This way we can assert our authority over everyone over the potential minuscule threats they may pose to us. Our fear of “what if” should always over reach people’s freedoms.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

No I said drinking should be banned all together. Because anyone could potentially drink and drive, or become violent etc.

Just like masks should be mandatory because you might have covid even tough you probably don’t.

See when you drink you probably won’t drive like 99 percent of us... but it’s not enough to say drinking and driving is a crime, we just need to make it a crime to drink, period. This way we can assert our authority over everyone over the potential minuscule threats they may pose to us. Our fear of “what if” should always over reach people’s freedoms.

The difference of course being that I know when I have been drinking, and I know when I have not been drinking. I don't know whether or not I have Covid. Important distinction.

But yeah, otherwise I'm with you there, assuming I read your sarcasm correctly. I've heard the same argument applied to firearm ownership (let's not get into that here though).

[shimmydampner]

Well, a co-worker of a good friend of mine --a nurse -- was just lost to Covid. 40 years old, absolutely no pre existing health conditions. They are in shock at the Toronto area hospital.

Keep telling me how fake all of this is, and the hospitals are empty.

Well, she'll be one of the very few, if not the first in that age group with zero co-morbidities. To quote directly from the Stats Canada website:

In fact, 100% of the COVID-involved deaths of Canadians under the age of 45 as of July 31 had at least one other disease or condition certified on the medical certificate of death.

I certainly don't think any of this is fake, but the epidemiological evidence that is readily available on the government's website suggests that we might at least consider a different approach to combating the virus. There is a year's worth of numbers that overwhelmingly point to it being a non-issue for healthy people in all but the most elderly age groups. (And even then, 89% of deaths in people over 85, involved at least one co-morbidity.) A young healthy 30 year old, is just not the same as a sick, 80 year old cancer patient. So why are we treating them the same? Is it really so crazy to suggest that maybe we should be focusing our efforts on protecting the truly vulnerable, rather than forcing young, healthy people to put their lives on pause for something that statistically is not a serious threat to them, while simultaneously saddling them with what will be a crushing tax burden for the rest of their working lives? A full two thirds of all of Canada's covid cases have been in people under the age of 50. Yet that age group accounts for only 1.4% of deaths. Clearly, this is not a threat to young healthy people in the prime of their lives/working/earning years. Is it not possible that we could come up with ways to let the majority of people continue with their lives and start repairing the damage done, while still protecting the most vulnerable? Do those objectives really have to be mutually exclusive? Is that really the best we can do? In spite of the vaccines, there doesn't appear to be an end in sight. How long can we all be reasonably expected to endure "the new normal"? Couldn't we, now that we have a year's worth of data, at least have the discussion about changing course and salvaging what we can of the "old normal"? Isn't it folly to stubbornly stick to an old plan in spite of new evidence?

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

A full two thirds of all of Canada's covid cases have been in people under the age of 50. Yet that age group accounts for only 1.4% of deaths. Clearly, this is not a threat to young healthy people in the prime of their lives/working/earning years.

Death is not the sole non-trivial outcome of this disease. I came down with the flu (got tested, three times, definitely not Covid, doc is pretty sure it was Influenza) in January. I'm still now dealing with the shadow if it, three months later - and that's just the flu.

[piperdriver]

A full two thirds of all of Canada's covid cases have been in people under the age of 50. Yet that age group accounts for only 1.4% of deaths. Clearly, this is not a threat to young healthy people in the prime of their lives/working/earning years.

Death is not the sole non-trivial outcome of this disease. I came down with the flu (got tested, three times, definitely not Covid, doc is pretty sure it was Influenza) in January. I'm still now dealing with the shadow if it, three months later - and that's just the flu.

Are you a smoker?

[shimmydampner]

Death is not the sole non-trivial outcome of this disease. I came down with the flu (got tested, three times, definitely not Covid, doc is pretty sure it was Influenza) in January. I'm still now dealing with the shadow if it, three months later - and that's just the flu.

So why don't we lock down for the flu every year?

You're absolutely right though, death is not the only concern. But according to the stats, if you're under 50 (even under 70, really) with no underlying health issues, covid is unlikely to be a serious concern on its own. My point is not to trivialize the threat of covid, rather that it's only likely to pose a threat to very specific groups of people. Why is it heresy to point that out? And why is it heresy to suggest that, in light of that information, our society could entertain other ways of protecting the vulnerable, while being less damaging to the majority of people who need not be overly concerned about the virus?

[ReserveTank]

The difference of course being that I know when I have been drinking, and I know when I have not been drinking. I don't know whether or not I have Covid. Important distinction.

Drinking isn't making for a good analogy.

I would argue that you know that you have been breathing. Your right to breathe ends where my safety begins.
The masks are working and the strict lockdowns are turning everything around, right?

Let's check in with the industry:

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/colum ... rom-ottawa

Reap what you sow. You can't have COVID measures and flying income. You push masks, I write MPs. Learn to farm, aisle donkeys.

My point is not to trivialize the threat of covid, rather that it's only likely to pose a threat to very specific groups of people. Why is it heresy to point that out?

Because the real effect of COVID is a social pathology, a psychological disease. It is an unlimited playground for hard left ideologues and the corporate masters that they worship.

[rookiepilot]

Well, a co-worker of a good friend of mine --a nurse -- was just lost to Covid. 40 years old, absolutely no pre existing health conditions. They are in shock at the Toronto area hospital.

Keep telling me how fake all of this is, and the hospitals are empty.

My friend tells me 25 more of her co-workers -- this in one hospital -- are currently ill with Covid. 250 have had it, and recovered. She says it's very hard there right now.

[montado]

Covid in the ICU, what the media wants you to see.

Screenshot_20210409-154726.png (575.39 KiB) Viewed 1558 times

And the information straight from public health in Toronto.

Screenshot_20210409-154644.png (166.38 KiB) Viewed 1558 times

Why is it the media is screaming that ICUs are full but when you check the status, capacity is in the green.
https://www.toronto.ca/home/covid-19/co ... n-toronto/