Flair Summer Expansion

[theflyingmoose]

Every airline in Canada could be a ULCC if we removed AIF and Navcan fees. Unfortunately our government keeps viewing the industry as a cash cow and round trip AIF’s alone are approaching $100 making it difficult for any airline to be a true ULCC. The other issue in Canada is the lack of secondary airports to take advantage of furthering the monopoly of the primary airports in cities.

All that said I wish Flair the best because one less airline means more pilots on the street.

Fair enough - the hope probably isn't to reach Spirit- or Ryanair-level costs, but enough to have a significant ticket price gap relative to AC/WJ.

[flying4dollars]

Yes, there is a way to make the ULCC/LCC/whatever CC nomenclature you want to assign, work. Flair is resolving to make that come to fruition. So far, it doesn't look like they are failing as all the pundits predicted within their first 1 or 2 years of inception in the airline side of the biz. Don't take my word for it. There's a reason one of our primary investors went out and acquired a number of brand new MAX jets to lease to us. They wouldn't do it if they saw something that wasn't working, or something they didn't like. There seems to be a lot of optimism around here and it's not fuelled by sunshine and rainbows

Having an inside view must be nice I'm no expert either, but I agree that 777 Partners clearly understands the potential in order to lease 13 MAXs to you guys (also the MAX must've been available at very nice rates). I think the most promising signs for Flair are:

1. The true ULCC model hasn't been properly tried in Canada before
2. Flair isn't an airline-in-airline like Swoop (some good reading here and here)
3. There are supposedly enough people (10 million Canadians) that would fly a ULCC regularly
4. COVID has weakened AC/WJ's ability to undercut/fight Flair in price wars like they did with JetsGo or CanJet

I expand on all of these points here: https://theflyingmoose.net/what-flair-a ... ing-right/ - give it a read if you're interested! They convince me that, at the very least, Flair isn't an imminent bankruptcy just burning through cash every day. My view is from the outside, however, so I'm curious if you feel that these reasons really get the situation.

Pretty good write up. I appreciated that you referenced empirical data to substantiate some of your content. One other thing to credit pandemic survival is that Flair is extremely flexible because we only have 3 aircraft right now and a very flexible workforce and shareholders. Everyone has pitched in here to keep the lights on and the company is able to adapt to the constant changes in this pandemic environment. There's a very real possibility that this pandemic will actually have cemented us in this country when it's all said and done for many reasons such as - aircraft lease rates, gate and airport slots, contract procurement etc.

Yeah I'm biased, but the optimism here is palpable. We see it in the actions of management, shareholders and the public (future bookings are driving this expansion). It's not solely based on 'a blind feeling'.

[simply_no_one]

Until AC undercuts every route you have to force you out of business.

It's the Canadian monopoly way ... See; telecom

[rooster]

Until AC undercuts every route you have to force you out of business.

It's the Canadian monopoly way ... See; telecom

Yeah? Aren't they burning what, $15M+ a day? Don't think they can afford to burn more to push anyone out. Why didn't they force WJ out of business in 95? Bruh, aren't they like, Canada's second largest airline now?

[47north]

Until AC undercuts every route you have to force you out of business.

It's the Canadian monopoly way ... See; telecom

Yeah? Aren't they burning what, $15M+ a day? Don't think they can afford to burn more to push anyone out. Why didn't they force WJ out of business in 95? Bruh, aren't they like, Canada's second largest airline now?

Flair may succeed with some on this expansion, but if you don’t think that AC/Rouge and WS/Swoop won’t make it difficult for them, then you are mistaken.

[rooster]

Until AC undercuts every route you have to force you out of business.

It's the Canadian monopoly way ... See; telecom

Yeah? Aren't they burning what, $15M+ a day? Don't think they can afford to burn more to push anyone out. Why didn't they force WJ out of business in 95? Bruh, aren't they like, Canada's second largest airline now?

Flair may succeed with some on this expansion, but if you don’t think that AC/Rouge and WS/Swoop won’t make it difficult for them, then you are mistaken.

I never said they won't make it difficult. They already have. See WJ's creation of Swoop with direct competition to Flair. Have they folded yet? Nope. I wrote them off a couple of years ago too but there's NO WAY they are in a position to grow during a pandemic if they were in financial despair. Maybe it's time we all just accept that a 3rd carrier is born. Nothing wrong with that IMO. Good for them. It's good for aviation in Canada. They get my support!!

[Tolip]

Until AC undercuts every route you have to force you out of business.

It's the Canadian monopoly way ... See; telecom

They already are, just tried to book a flight for end of may with flair/swoop vs ac/westjet. And strangely enough after you add all the add ons with flair/swoop (things youd have to have) it's actually more expensive. Go figure. I can book yyz to yvr on westjet/AC for 242 round trip, flair for 370 (which includes like nothing) and swoop for 450 ( with a carry on bag). Strange times, wont be easy for flair to compete in this environment

[rooster]

Until AC undercuts every route you have to force you out of business.

It's the Canadian monopoly way ... See; telecom

They already are, just tried to book a flight for end of may with flair/swoop vs ac/westjet. And strangely enough after you add all the add ons with flair/swoop (things youd have to have) it's actually more expensive. Go figure. I can book yyz to yvr on westjet/AC for 242 round trip, flair for 370 (which includes like nothing) and swoop for 450 ( with a carry on bag). Strange times, wont be easy for flair to compete in this environment

Interesting, I just checked and Swoop is $176, but out of YXX. Flair is $193 round trip and AC is $234 round trip for the same dates at the end of May out of YVR. You have to pay for a checked bag with both carriers. Doesn't really seem like you get much more with AC than Flair as you claim and I'm not sure how you got $370.

[Yycjetdriver]

Yeah? Aren't they burning what, $15M+ a day? Don't think they can afford to burn more to push anyone out. Why didn't they force WJ out of business in 95? Bruh, aren't they like, Canada's second largest airline now?

Flair may succeed with some on this expansion, but if you don’t think that AC/Rouge and WS/Swoop won’t make it difficult for them, then you are mistaken.

I never said they won't make it difficult. They already have. See WJ's creation of Swoop with direct competition to Flair. Have they folded yet? Nope. I wrote them off a couple of years ago too but there's NO WAY they are in a position to grow during a pandemic if they were in financial despair. Maybe it's time we all just accept that a 3rd carrier is born. Nothing wrong with that IMO. Good for them. It's good for aviation in Canada. They get my support!!

Westjet did not create Swoop in retaliation to Flair. It would have been much easier for them to just under cut flair using their recognized/established brand.

[Tolip]

Until AC undercuts every route you have to force you out of business.

It's the Canadian monopoly way ... See; telecom

They already are, just tried to book a flight for end of may with flair/swoop vs ac/westjet. And strangely enough after you add all the add ons with flair/swoop (things youd have to have) it's actually more expensive. Go figure. I can book yyz to yvr on westjet/AC for 242 round trip, flair for 370 (which includes like nothing) and swoop for 450 ( with a carry on bag). Strange times, wont be easy for flair to compete in this environment

Interesting, I just checked and Swoop is $176, but out of YXX. Flair is $193 round trip and AC is $234 round trip for the same dates at the end of May out of YVR. You have to pay for a checked bag with both carriers. Doesn't really seem like you get much more with AC than Flair as you claim and I'm not sure how you got $370.

You cant look at the advertised price. That's how they trick you, flair charges like 170 for even a carry on bag or checked bag (same price, and you would have to have atleast 1) so the price very quickly gets up there. If you actually book a reservation, you'll see. Same goes for swoop. Dont be fooled. Where as with WJ/AC all that is included (atleast the carry on bag) so you can get away with the advertised price of 242.

[tbaylx]

They already are, just tried to book a flight for end of may with flair/swoop vs ac/westjet. And strangely enough after you add all the add ons with flair/swoop (things youd have to have) it's actually more expensive. Go figure. I can book yyz to yvr on westjet/AC for 242 round trip, flair for 370 (which includes like nothing) and swoop for 450 ( with a carry on bag). Strange times, wont be easy for flair to compete in this environment

Interesting, I just checked and Swoop is $176, but out of YXX. Flair is $193 round trip and AC is $234 round trip for the same dates at the end of May out of YVR. You have to pay for a checked bag with both carriers. Doesn't really seem like you get much more with AC than Flair as you claim and I'm not sure how you got $370.

You cant look at the advertised price. That's how they trick you, flair charges like 170 for even a carry on bag or checked bag (same price, and you would have to have atleast 1) so the price very quickly gets up there. If you actually book a reservation, you'll see. Same goes for swoop. Dont be fooled. Where as with WJ/AC all that is included (atleast the carry on bag) so you can get away with the advertised price of 242.

If by $170 you mean $39-59 for a carry on bag then you're correct.

[simply_no_one]

Until AC undercuts every route you have to force you out of business.

It's the Canadian monopoly way ... See; telecom

They already are, just tried to book a flight for end of may with flair/swoop vs ac/westjet. And strangely enough after you add all the add ons with flair/swoop (things youd have to have) it's actually more expensive. Go figure. I can book yyz to yvr on westjet/AC for 242 round trip, flair for 370 (which includes like nothing) and swoop for 450 ( with a carry on bag). Strange times, wont be easy for flair to compete in this environment

I know someone who flew on Flair from Toronto to Vancouver, and ended up paying a ton. Because he didn't quite understand all the add ons... which I'm guessing a lot of Canadians don't. Showed up with not just a checked back but and OVERWEIGHT bag... I told him many times to just buy WJ or AC and it would be the same at least, and then at least you're getting some service onboard. But he didn't listen.

[simply_no_one]

They already are, just tried to book a flight for end of may with flair/swoop vs ac/westjet. And strangely enough after you add all the add ons with flair/swoop (things youd have to have) it's actually more expensive. Go figure. I can book yyz to yvr on westjet/AC for 242 round trip, flair for 370 (which includes like nothing) and swoop for 450 ( with a carry on bag). Strange times, wont be easy for flair to compete in this environment

Interesting, I just checked and Swoop is $176, but out of YXX. Flair is $193 round trip and AC is $234 round trip for the same dates at the end of May out of YVR. You have to pay for a checked bag with both carriers. Doesn't really seem like you get much more with AC than Flair as you claim and I'm not sure how you got $370.

You cant look at the advertised price. That's how they trick you, flair charges like 170 for even a carry on bag or checked bag (same price, and you would have to have atleast 1) so the price very quickly gets up there. If you actually book a reservation, you'll see. Same goes for swoop. Dont be fooled. Where as with WJ/AC all that is included (atleast the carry on bag) so you can get away with the advertised price of 242.

And a carry on with AC or WJ is actually a legit carry on.

Not a small backpack, like the ULCC's do and then charge you extra for an actual rolling carry on.

[Tolip]

Interesting, I just checked and Swoop is $176, but out of YXX. Flair is $193 round trip and AC is $234 round trip for the same dates at the end of May out of YVR. You have to pay for a checked bag with both carriers. Doesn't really seem like you get much more with AC than Flair as you claim and I'm not sure how you got $370.

You cant look at the advertised price. That's how they trick you, flair charges like 170 for even a carry on bag or checked bag (same price, and you would have to have atleast 1) so the price very quickly gets up there. If you actually book a reservation, you'll see. Same goes for swoop. Dont be fooled. Where as with WJ/AC all that is included (atleast the carry on bag) so you can get away with the advertised price of 242.

If by $170 you mean $39-59 for a carry on bag then you're correct.

Dont ever believe the quoted prices on their website man, that's the classic attitude that leads to people being taken advantage of by ULCcs, their hole business model is predicated on taking advantage of exactly that. I just booked a fake flignt on their website and it was 67 dollars for a carry on bag ( both ways) so a total of 134. And god forbid the bad doesnt fit into the sizing device or is over weight. Then they really got you. On wj a carry on is free (doesnt really matter the shape or size) or you can get a checked bag for 30 dollars. Right now it is truly and actually cheeper to book with AC and WJ. Plus you actually have some flexibility.

[rooster]

They already are, just tried to book a flight for end of may with flair/swoop vs ac/westjet. And strangely enough after you add all the add ons with flair/swoop (things youd have to have) it's actually more expensive. Go figure. I can book yyz to yvr on westjet/AC for 242 round trip, flair for 370 (which includes like nothing) and swoop for 450 ( with a carry on bag). Strange times, wont be easy for flair to compete in this environment

Interesting, I just checked and Swoop is $176, but out of YXX. Flair is $193 round trip and AC is $234 round trip for the same dates at the end of May out of YVR. You have to pay for a checked bag with both carriers. Doesn't really seem like you get much more with AC than Flair as you claim and I'm not sure how you got $370.

You cant look at the advertised price. That's how they trick you, flair charges like 170 for even a carry on bag or checked bag (same price, and you would have to have atleast 1) so the price very quickly gets up there. If you actually book a reservation, you'll see. Same goes for swoop. Dont be fooled. Where as with WJ/AC all that is included (atleast the carry on bag) so you can get away with the advertised price of 242.

Umm the $234 fare with AC does NOT include a checked bag. It clearly states that checked bag is extra. With Flair if I add the checked bag I get $275 with tax. I don't know how the heck you're getting $170 for a checked bag LOL. That's unheard of. With Air Canada, selecting the flex fare (which adds the checked bag and 1 free change like Flair's add-on), I get $467. I went right up to the booking. So I don't know what you're doing to get the discrepancy but my parents usually fly Flair from Toronto for this very reason and they aren't charged anymore than what they book with add-ons. A simple review of the rules isn't hard. If they can figure it out, I'm sure most can.

Also, you said you would have at least 1 item between a carry-on and checked bag. That's false. You can have a personal item and not be charged anything for that. I have a feeling you are unknowingly adding on items without double checking what you're clicking. Otherwise I'm not sure where you are getting these 'charges' from.

Plus you actually have some flexibility.

Only if you book the flex fare which as I mentioned gives you a free checked bag and 1 free change. You can do the same with Flair by adding on the bundle but it's far cheaper than AC.

[rooster]

Until AC undercuts every route you have to force you out of business.

It's the Canadian monopoly way ... See; telecom

They already are, just tried to book a flight for end of may with flair/swoop vs ac/westjet. And strangely enough after you add all the add ons with flair/swoop (things youd have to have) it's actually more expensive. Go figure. I can book yyz to yvr on westjet/AC for 242 round trip, flair for 370 (which includes like nothing) and swoop for 450 ( with a carry on bag). Strange times, wont be easy for flair to compete in this environment

I know someone who flew on Flair from Toronto to Vancouver, and ended up paying a ton. Because he didn't quite understand all the add ons... which I'm guessing a lot of Canadians don't. Showed up with not just a checked back but and OVERWEIGHT bag... I told him many times to just buy WJ or AC and it would be the same at least, and then at least you're getting some service onboard. But he didn't listen.

Yeah this is more of a problem with the public. As I stated in my previous post, my parents use Flair fairly often because of the fare price and they never seem to have any issues. The people who don't understand the add-ons are just too lazy to pay attention. It's pretty clear cut on the website

I personally prefer AC's inflight entertainment but I also download most of my media on my tablet so at the end of the day, it comes down to cost really. And if AC has a widebody on a route I'm booking, I'll book it over WJ, Swoop or Flair if the price is within +$50

[FICU]

Dont ever believe the quoted prices on their website man, that's the classic attitude that leads to people being taken advantage of by ULCcs, their hole business model is predicated on taking advantage of exactly that.

When we did flights for Flair a few years back the passengers were mostly immigrants moving across the country and grand parents going to see families. The majority of them seemed to be blind sided by the extra costs and on board service. Hopefully that isn't the case now.

[flying4dollars]

Dont ever believe the quoted prices on their website man, that's the classic attitude that leads to people being taken advantage of by ULCcs, their hole business model is predicated on taking advantage of exactly that.

When we did flights for Flair a few years back the passengers were mostly immigrants moving across the country and grand parents going to see families. The majority of them seemed to be blind sided by the extra costs and on board service. Hopefully that isn't the case now.

Likely because most people don't understand the concept of add-ons, a ULCC feature. They assume the price they see includes everything because that's what airlines like Air Canada and Westjet do. I wouldn't call not reading the details blind-siding. It's clearly laid out on the website. But even with add-ons, a majority of the flights are still cheaper than an equivalent fare type on the national carriers. Most are starting to figure it out but it'll still take time for people to understand the system.

[Soyer]

Sorry but you are either purposely misleading people or simply don't have a clue.

Go the flyflair.com website. Pick a route. The next page will show you each leg with the date you have chosen and VERY clearly, right underneath each leg, is a note suggesting you book and pay for a checked bag etc. now as part of a bundled price which is cheaper. First step it is CLEAR that you pay for baggage (by the way it is the same as WJ and AC).

Next you can choose a seat at cost - depending on the seat.

You then enter your personal information.

Next page - again - asks you to choose a carry on and a checked bag, if you require those.

Screen Shot 2021-04-03 at 7.50.51 PM.png (104.87 KiB) Viewed 4986 times

FInal screen show the base fare, add on cost and taxes.

Prett simple and easy and most certainly very clear. No one is being bushwhacked into unknowingly buying a ticket with 'hidden' extra costs.

You cant look at the advertised price. That's how they trick you, flair charges like 170 for even a carry on bag or checked bag (same price, and you would have to have atleast 1) so the price very quickly gets up there. If you actually book a reservation, you'll see. Same goes for swoop. Dont be fooled. Where as with WJ/AC all that is included (atleast the carry on bag) so you can get away with the advertised price of 242.

If by $170 you mean $39-59 for a carry on bag then you're correct.

Dont ever believe the quoted prices on their website man, that's the classic attitude that leads to people being taken advantage of by ULCcs, their hole business model is predicated on taking advantage of exactly that. I just booked a fake flignt on their website and it was 67 dollars for a carry on bag ( both ways) so a total of 134. And god forbid the bad doesnt fit into the sizing device or is over weight. Then they really got you. On wj a carry on is free (doesnt really matter the shape or size) or you can get a checked bag for 30 dollars. Right now it is truly and actually cheeper to book with AC and WJ. Plus you actually have some flexibility.

[Tolip]

Sorry but you are either purposely misleading people or simply don't have a clue.

Go the flyflair.com website. Pick a route. The next page will show you each leg with the date you have chosen and VERY clearly, right underneath each leg, is a note suggesting you book and pay for a checked bag etc. now as part of a bundled price which is cheaper. First step it is CLEAR that you pay for baggage (by the way it is the same as WJ and AC).

Next you can choose a seat at cost - depending on the seat.

You then enter your personal information.

Next page - again - asks you to choose a carry on and a checked bag, if you require those.

Screen Shot 2021-04-03 at 7.50.51 PM.png


FInal screen show the base fare, add on cost and taxes.

Prett simple and easy and most certainly very clear. No one is being bushwhacked into unknowingly buying a ticket with 'hidden' extra costs.

If by $170 you mean $39-59 for a carry on bag then you're correct.

Dont ever believe the quoted prices on their website man, that's the classic attitude that leads to people being taken advantage of by ULCcs, their hole business model is predicated on taking advantage of exactly that. I just booked a fake flignt on their website and it was 67 dollars for a carry on bag ( both ways) so a total of 134. And god forbid the bad doesnt fit into the sizing device or is over weight. Then they really got you. On wj a carry on is free (doesnt really matter the shape or size) or you can get a checked bag for 30 dollars. Right now it is truly and actually cheeper to book with AC and WJ. Plus you actually have some flexibility.

Not misleading people at all man, just comparing ONE to ONE costs with different airlines. Obviously with EVERY airline their is 5000 different fairs and different bundles and promos. I am not comparing those things they are just too vast. Just one to one. For a round trip that I was gunna book with flair it was 134 dollars for a carry on. With westjet and ac a carry on is free. And even a check bag with WJ is like 30 dollers. But all that doesnt matter because the whole point of my post was that right now it is cheeper on some routes to fly with AC and westjet, and how that its interesting and strange. I just booked for may 20th a flight with WJ yyz to yvr round trip for 242 dollars, no matter how i changed the bundles plans or promos with swoop and flair, I could not get a ticket for a better price. Its wierd.

[garfield]

So, Flair is more expensive than Ryanair?

I remember paying around 50$ for a carry-on bag

[co-joe]

Westjet did not create Swoop in retaliation to Flair. It would have been much easier for them to just under cut flair using their recognized/established brand.

No, they created Swoop to undercut ALPA and take away some of its power within their own company. Being able to give tickets away for free to try to put their competitor out of business was just a bonus.

[FatPilot]

My issue with Flair is they fly old heavily used airplanes. Why not sit in a bran new C series ( A220) or Max with a good seat back entertainment system.

[Cavalier44]

While I wish Flair and all the employees there the best of success, I can't help but feel that this announcement of a summer expansion was poorly timed, especially with regard to the East Coast destinations. Unfortunately, most provinces are locking down at the moment due to the third wave, not relaxing their restrictions.

Unless the situation improves dramatically in the next few months, I really can't see there being a significant uptick in intra-Canadian travel this summer. With the Atlantic bubble remaining in effect, no one will be going to Halifax/Saint John/Charlottetown/etc. for tourism purposes, so unless Flair is planning to operate the inbound legs empty, I can't see this being a recipe for success.

On top of that, there are a lot of bizarre city pairings like YHZ-YKF, YKF-YYJ, etc., on which it probably would have been difficult to fill a regional jet at the best of times pre-COVID, and now Flair wants to operate a 189-seat 737 on the same routes? While I have no personal animosity towards Flair, I can't help but to remain skeptical - these new route announcements don't seem like a money-maker to me. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong.

[theflyingmoose]

While I wish Flair and all the employees there the best of success, I can't help but feel that this announcement of a summer expansion was poorly timed, especially with regard to the East Coast destinations. Unfortunately, most provinces are locking down at the moment due to the third wave, not relaxing their restrictions.

Seems like Flair was half-gambling that travel would open up again by the summer, and that WJ/AC would be caught flat-footed to meet demand. To be fair, they might've been inspired by the demand recovery in the US.