Seaplane down with seven on board.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Honest question Pelmet,

Have you ever acted as PIC on an aircraft equipped with floats?

I’m only asking as bubble windows don’t do squat to help someone ascertain amphib gear position and if you really think a small mirror can do much more than “assist” one with a suspected faulty indication you are mistaken.

I've driven big rigs with bubble windows and mirrors. Those windows and doors are... not quite useless - but close to it. I imagine those windows on an amphibian are somewhat similar.

[PilotDAR]

Discussion of bubble windows and mirrors is tangential to the factors of the accident. They may help, a little. Commenters should familiarize themselves amphibious floats and normal amphibian discipline before getting too far into this.

The Wipline floats of the subject airplane had electric pump and position indicators, and that system is powered through a circuit breaker, which the report discussed. And the floats, like any amphibious float I've even seen, have mechanical position marker flags in the float deck, and a hand pump, so electricity is not required to operate, and confirm the wheel's position. I could require quite a lean to the right, if the pilot would like to look out the right window to see the right float flag while flying solo, a lean I've done many times. When carrying a passenger, I have found it to be entirely worthwhile to ground brief the passenger during the walk around, as to what the flag indicates, and the importance of knowing the wheel's position. I have found passengers very participative in confirming the wheels position when I ask them to check. If in doubt, lean across them.

Some planes have a speed actuated audio warning system, which speaks the wheel position over the audio system. Some pilots like that system, it's not my preference. I'd rather not relax into relying upon it. It will not prevent an error, all it does is tell the pilot the wheel position while slowing through a set speed. If that system is not getting power, it will be silent. Pilots are very poor at understanding a warning from a silent warning system.

In the case of this sad accident, the report describes the configuration of the airplane, the landing gear selector, and the circuit breaker. Readers may draw conclusions from this information.

[J31]

My guess is that the pilot was rendered unconscious due to lack of shoulder harness. Lots of hard things to hit your head in the front of a 185.

[pelmet]

"The aircraft was also equipped with a bubble window on the pilot’s side, and a curved mirror located on the underside of the left wing to enable the pilot to check the wheels’ position visually."

Personally, I like to double check my killer items before landing. There is not a lot. Double checking the mirror for gear not being in view on amphibs(for a water landing) after doing a checklist(whether a memorized or written checklist)

Honest question Pelmet,

Have you ever acted as PIC on an aircraft equipped with floats?

I’m only asking as bubble windows don’t do squat to help someone ascertain amphib gear position and if you really think a small mirror can do much more than “assist” one with a suspected faulty indication you are mistaken.

The quest to promote “killer item checklist for the original checklist” continues!

This thread has once again brought up some valuable information for newbies on credibility of experienced pilots and how your life can be saved(or not) based on conversations with them. First we have a poster who appears to have a single goal of derailing my good advice in multiple threads(note to readers...he is a French guy who got upset at me years ago because he loves his language so much and in a thread, defended the use of it at mixed use airports claiming that it could not increase the likelihood of an accident. I proved him very wrong by providing a link to an accident in Paris where the use of French language killed two pilots. He has been angry at me ever since).

Now in his intent to somehow 'get back at me', you can see that he provides, as usual, no useful information to save your life. And a newbie might actually believe that there is little that can be dome to prevent this type of floatplane accident.

Then we have a true professional post and backs up what I said. You want to double check that your gear is up on an amphibious aircraft prior to landing or else you might die, as many have.

So read again what the good quality advice is. And remember, others may be more interested in protecting their language, getting even, etc, than they are in giving you life-saving advice. They won't be at your funeral. Bottom line....like I said....double check your gear position, and if a mirror is not satisfactory, come up with another method as provided here. And beware of who you take your advice from.

Discussion of bubble windows and mirrors is tangential to the factors of the accident. They may help, a little. Commenters should familiarize themselves amphibious floats and normal amphibian discipline before getting too far into this.

The Wipline floats of the subject airplane had electric pump and position indicators, and that system is powered through a circuit breaker, which the report discussed. And the floats, like any amphibious float I've even seen, have mechanical position marker flags in the float deck, and a hand pump, so electricity is not required to operate, and confirm the wheel's position. I could require quite a lean to the right, if the pilot would like to look out the right window to see the right float flag while flying solo, a lean I've done many times. When carrying a passenger, I have found it to be entirely worthwhile to ground brief the passenger during the walk around, as to what the flag indicates, and the importance of knowing the wheel's position. I have found passengers very participative in confirming the wheels position when I ask them to check. If in doubt, lean across them.

Some planes have a speed actuated audio warning system, which speaks the wheel position over the audio system. Some pilots like that system, it's not my preference. I'd rather not relax into relying upon it. It will not prevent an error, all it does is tell the pilot the wheel position while slowing through a set speed. If that system is not getting power, it will be silent. Pilots are very poor at understanding a warning from a silent warning system.

In the case of this sad accident, the report describes the configuration of the airplane, the landing gear selector, and the circuit breaker. Readers may draw conclusions from this information.

[pelmet]

Yeah. Since you haven't convinced anyone in that other thread, go ahead and try to hijack this one, all the while sullying the life and memory of the pilot.

Because yanno, four possibly crying, hungry children and a barking, restless dog, not to mention a last minute change of plans certainly would not have affected your "killer items" checklist, nor your ability to complete it.

You also don't know whether or not he knew the gear was down. It is likely nobody ever will. He may well have known the gear was down and attempted to land anyway, for myriad reasons we may never know. But go ahead and assume he died because he didn't heed your pet project.

(to be fair, I haven't read the report, and this post is coming across harsher than I intended it to)

I've driven big rigs with bubble windows and mirrors. Those windows and doors are... not quite useless - but close to it. I imagine those windows on an amphibian are somewhat similar.

Thanks, you haven't read the report and are telling us about mirrors on big rigs with assumption that they are the same as on amphibious airplanes. And that an experienced floatplane pilot may have known that the gear was down but still decided to land on the water. Nuff said.

[J31]

You also don't know whether or not he knew the gear was down. It is likely nobody ever will. He may well have known the gear was down and attempted to land anyway, for myriad reasons we may never know. But go ahead and assume he died because he didn't heed your pet project.

(to be fair, I haven't read the report, and this post is coming across harsher than I intended it to)

WHAT! This pilot made many errors but I am sure he did NOT intentionally land on the water with the wheels down!

[pelmet]

You also don't know whether or not he knew the gear was down. It is likely nobody ever will. He may well have known the gear was down and attempted to land anyway, for myriad reasons we may never know. But go ahead and assume he died because he didn't heed your pet project.

(to be fair, I haven't read the report, and this post is coming across harsher than I intended it to)

WHAT! This pilot made many errors but I am sure he did NOT intentionally land on the water with the wheels down!

Making a suggestion like that about the pilot is a lot more sullying of a reputation than anything I said.

[TeePeeCreeper]

This thread has once again brought up some valuable information for newbies on credibility of experienced pilots and how your life can be saved(or not) based on conversations with them. First we have a poster who appears to have a single goal of derailing my good advice in multiple threads(note to readers...he is a French guy who got upset at me years ago because he loves his language so much and in a thread, defended the use of it at mixed use airports claiming that it could not increase the likelihood of an accident. I proved him very wrong by providing a link to an accident in Paris where the use of French language killed two pilots. He has been angry at me ever since).

Now in his intent to somehow 'get back at me', you can see that he provides, as usual, no useful information to save your life. And a newbie might actually believe that there is little that can be dome to prevent this type of floatplane accident.

Then we have a true professional post and backs up what I said. You want to double check that your gear is up on an amphibious aircraft prior to landing or else you might die, as many have.

So read again what the good quality advice is. And remember, others may be more interested in protecting their language, getting even, etc, than they are in giving you life-saving advice. They won't be at your funeral. Bottom line....like I said....double check your gear position, and if a mirror is not satisfactory, come up with another method as provided here. And beware of who you take your advice from.

That’s the best rant I’ve seen on Avcanada in awhile! Sadly it wasn’t relevant to this discussion whatsoever....

Now that you’ve gotten it out of your system can you answer the question I asked you which was;

Do you have any PIC experience on a float equipped aircraft Pelmet?

I’m only curious as you seem to be advocating bubble windows and mirrors as though they are the next best thing to have happened since sliced bread!

Sadly bubble windows and mirrors aren’t very helpful as PilotDar has already said and I agree with him.
I once had a partial gear extension while flying a 208 on amphibs and the mirrors were utterly useless. The only indication I had was the gear warning system and a slight reduction in airspeed...

TPC

[Pilotdaddy]

Sadly it wasn’t relevant to this discussion whatsoever....

Don't you know, that's step #3 of Pelmetism?

[rookiepilot]

Sadly it wasn’t relevant to this discussion whatsoever....

Don't you know, that's step #3 of Pelmetism?

There's always a constructive outlet available though --

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/carrieres-careers/index.html

[Big Pistons Forever]

It is always risky to use a brief TSB report as a rational to articulate larger general flight safety messages, however in this case I will weigh in with my personal POV.

Leaving aside the inadvisability of carrying seven people in an aircraft with only 4 seats, I would suggest that the lack of checklist discipline played a significant roll in this tragic accident. This inattention to detail started with failing to confirm the landing gear retracted after takeoff and then of course failing to confirm the landing gear was up as part of the prelanding check for a water landing. There were 3 ways to do this and it appears none of them were utilized.

Amphibian aircraft are particularly unforgiving with respect to landing gear position and therefore demand good checklist discipline for all stages of the flight

[pelmet]

Sadly bubble windows and mirrors aren’t very helpful as PilotDar has already said and I agree with him.

He said....

They may help, a little.

And then he stated a better method, which I suspect that you have never done or you would have mentioned it. No problem. There is a better way to double check for proper gear position, which is the intent of my message.

Double check.

One of our very experienced amphibious pilots is doing that. I would much rather fly with him. And it would have prevented another tragedy.

As for the usual gripes by the usual group of posters that usually add nothing to a thread, the same applies, as usual.

For the TSB hiring link, expect diversity hiring to be as important as safety to them. That shows you the quality of what you can expect from them.

[7ECA]

And it would have prevented another tragedy.

Hubris (/ˈhjuːbrɪs/, from ancient Greek ὕβρις) describes a personality quality of extreme or excessive pride[1] or dangerous overconfidence,[2] often in combination with (or synonymous with) arrogance.[3] The term "arrogance" comes from the Latin adrogare, meaning to feel that one has a right to demand certain attitudes and behaviors from other people. To "arrogate" means "to claim or seize without justification.... to make undue claims to having",[4] or "to claim or seize without right... to ascribe or attribute without reason".[5] The term "pretension" is also associated with the term hubris, but is not synonymous with hubris.[6][need quotation to verify] According to studies, hubris, arrogance and pretension are related to the need for victory (even if it doesn't always mean winning) instead of reconciliation, such as "friendly" groups might promote.[7] Hubris is usually perceived[by whom?] as a characteristic of an individual rather than a group, although the group the offender belongs to may suffer collateral consequences from wrongful acts. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence, accomplishments or capabilities. The adjectival form of the noun hubris is "hubristic".

[pelmet]

And it would have prevented another tragedy.

Hubris (/ˈhjuːbrɪs/, from ancient Greek ὕβρις) describes a personality quality of extreme or excessive pride[1] or dangerous overconfidence,[2] often in combination with (or synonymous with) arrogance.[3] The term "arrogance" comes from the Latin adrogare, meaning to feel that one has a right to demand certain attitudes and behaviors from other people. To "arrogate" means "to claim or seize without justification.... to make undue claims to having",[4] or "to claim or seize without right... to ascribe or attribute without reason".[5] The term "pretension" is also associated with the term hubris, but is not synonymous with hubris.[6][need quotation to verify] According to studies, hubris, arrogance and pretension are related to the need for victory (even if it doesn't always mean winning) instead of reconciliation, such as "friendly" groups might promote.[7] Hubris is usually perceived[by whom?] as a characteristic of an individual rather than a group, although the group the offender belongs to may suffer collateral consequences from wrongful acts. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence, accomplishments or capabilities. The adjectival form of the noun hubris is "hubristic".

Wrong again. I only make suggestions to prevent accidents. But you show your credibility by criticizing me more than the espousers of other theories....like he intentionally landed with the gear extended Kind of entertaining that 7ECA has highlighted a portion of the definition saying that I have lost contact with reality for simple advocated a double check of the gear position. Perhaps he is the one with the reality problem(or another with a history of being a griper).

Anyways, I think my double checking suggestion has resulted in an extremely useful example being posted on this thread provided by PilotDAR. It appears to be excellent advice, and would suggest anyone flying amphibs to follow that advice.

[PilotDAR]

I do not come to amphibian flying with all the answers, I have come to it, and remain terrified of getting it wrong, and causing an accident. Though landing gear position had nothing whatever with the accident I was involved in last time, it was a shocking reminder of how quickly things can go bad on the water, and how serious it is when it does. Sliding down the runway is certainly not good, but likely will enable a very embarrassed pilot to step out of the plane and look at it. In the water, it's going down, so hopefully you got out quickly.

Several of the amphibian pilots I have trained were about to land wheels down on the water, and to my shame, one of them had distracted me enough that it was my "save my own butt" check, rather than my appropriate training to him which prevented what would have been both our errors (but mostly mine). I remember my boss at the time landing his 185 amphib on my runway, right in front of me, wheels up. As I walked up to him, and he climbed out, I asked (honestly) "what was the first sign to you that the wheels were up?" He replied when he pressed a brake to steer, and it would not. Aside from the gear position, it was a really nice landing!

Though I appreciate checklists, I think of landing gear position as something more basic than a checklist item. Firstly, you need to understand what you're flying, and how the systems work (and fail). Then, you need to ingrain in your head that landing gear position is not a checklist item, it's basic. Like the instinct of lowering the nose at the recognition of an impending stall, where are you landing and how is the landing gear positioned? This goes beyond amphibious planes, its any plane with more than one landing gear position. Yeah, flipping your amphib in the water is pretty bad, but landing skis extended in a taildragger on a dry runway is going to end pretty badly too!

For most GA planes, most checklist items, if forgotten will be nuisance, but survivable. Not landing gear position. So it needs to be more fundamental to the pilot than a checklist. You may have to interrupt the use of the checklist to confirm the landing gear position! Do not do gear by rote, stop and think about what you're doing every time. Break the routine of the approach to do a basic pilot thing: Think about what you're planning to land on, and where the gear actually is, and speak it out loud - twice. If you get to final and can't recall speaking the gear position, go around.

And it's not just "wheels down", even when flying your favourite RG landplane, it's "The wheels are down for landing on land". Why? Because "wheels down is a cop out short cut, and it will fuss you right up that possible time you're planning to ditch, or slide on the rough ground. Think and speak: "Wheels are up for planned ditching". Skis are retracted for a runway landing, you get the idea.

I don't advocate this because I'm super experienced (compared to others here, I'm not), I advocate it because it's what I do, and what I train, and so far so good. As long as I do it, I hope to prevent a stupid error and accident. Thereafter, it's a mater of understanding the systems, and what could be wrong. With only two exceptions I can think of, the position of the landing gear selector offers no assurance of the landing gear position. If you're flying a certain older Mooney, or my flying boat, the position of the long manual landing gear lever will have a lot to do with the actual landing position - but I still look out at my wheels anyway. Otherwise, I like to confirm landing gear position by looking at something mechanical.

I've never seen amphib floats which did not have manual position flags, that's what you should be confirming, nothing else is much less reliable. But if you have an electric landing gear position system, understand what could fail, and what indication would be left if it did. Gear warning horn on a landplane? Not foolproof! When I had to do a bunch of test flying in a modified Navajo, there was no one to check me out, so I was just sent in it. I found for myself that it liked to be landed with a bit of power, so I did, and, of course, confirmed landing gear position, with reference to the lights, and cowl mirror. But, I realized that I was cheating myself, by carrying power down final, I was not closing the throttles until after touchdown - so the horn would never work for me if I'd forgotten the gear! So, in addition to confirming the landing gear position by the available means, I also got in the habit of briefly closing the throttles on far final, as an extra gear check - and spoke it.

We pilots want to fly, so let's fly, but let's make a proper job of it too! Understand the systems, use them, and then still pilot as though the systems are not working for you....

[TeePeeCreeper]

And then he stated a better method, which I suspect that you have never done or you would have mentioned it. No problem. There is a better way to double check for proper gear position, which is the intent of my message.

Double check.

One of our very experienced amphibious pilots is doing that. I would much rather fly with him. And it would have prevented another tragedy.

As for the usual gripes by the usual group of posters that usually add nothing to a thread, the same applies, as usual.

You are truly one of a kind Pelmet!

Again, for the third time...

Have you ever been PIC of an aircraft equipped with floats?

Rather than dismissing me (I’ve had gear issues in a large amphib have you?) and others perhaps you should get a basic seaplane endorsement before you keep running your mouth off in regards to a subsection of an industry you have no personal knowledge of?

Just a thought....

TPC

[pelmet]

And then he stated a better method, which I suspect that you have never done or you would have mentioned it. No problem. There is a better way to double check for proper gear position, which is the intent of my message.

Double check.

One of our very experienced amphibious pilots is doing that. I would much rather fly with him. And it would have prevented another tragedy.

As for the usual gripes by the usual group of posters that usually add nothing to a thread, the same applies, as usual.

You are truly one of a kind Pelmet!

Rather than dismissing me (I’ve had gear issues in a large amphib have you?) and others perhaps you should get a basic seaplane endorsement before you keep running your mouth off in regards to a subsection of an industry you have no personal knowledge of?

I suggest you read the last post by PilotDAR. You might learn a thing or two. What an excellent post. There is a lot more to experience than just hours and this thread proves it clearly. One doesn't learn a damn thing from a poster telling us that he has had gear issues in an amphib, one learns from this....viewtopic.php?p=1152721#p1152721

Pelmet....Truly one of a kind.

[pelmet]

Sadly it wasn’t relevant to this discussion whatsoever....

Don't you know, that's step #3 of Pelmetism?

The new, green instructor displays his teaching prowess again.

Sadly bubble windows and mirrors aren’t very helpful
I once had a partial gear extension while flying a 208 on amphibs and the mirrors were utterly useless. The only indication I had was the gear warning system and a slight reduction in airspeed...

It is kind of sad when bad information is given out by those claiming loads of experience. Just because the aircraft you were flying did not have useful mirrors, doesn't mean that they are not useful on many other aircraft. People have to get out of the mindset that all aircraft or aircraft systems are the same, even on the same type.......

"I use my mirrors. Usually I wait for the indicator lights to come on while slowly counting to 12 (that's what mine take to get down a little slower up), then look outside at the "tabs" indicating up or down and make sure they are where they should be and the last check while I'm looking outside is with the mirrors to make sure neither of the other two indicators have lied. I can see the right gear from the left mirror and vise - versa. So it may be possible to get away with one but at times I know that when there is a "real" concern you tend to use both and check each side using both. Mine were on when I purchased so can't help on where to get them. If I am by myself, I cannot see the outside tab indicator on the right side so my mirror then is my back up and visual check along with the indicator lights."

https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/amph ... rrors-2192

Meanwhile, a thread with a lot of comments about mirrors here......
https://www.supercub.org/forum/showthre ... ory-System

And another accident.....

https://generalaviationnews.com/2013/02 ... -the-gear/

Double check the gear, whether by mirrors or mechanical indicators. How much PIC time on amphibs does one need before this is considered to be good advice?

Updated at a later date.....Hey look at that. TPC has disappeared again after giving dangerous advice. Beware.

[mosky]

"Where am I landing and where is my landing gear". Every flight, no matter what airplane I'm flying. 3 times. Downwind, base and final. Actually look and think about what you are saying. Easy to say the words and have it totally backwards. Also 'Positive rate - Gear up. Every flight, every time, every airplane. May sound silly in a fixed gear airplane but I would rather sound silly than have to put my underwater egress training to the test one day.

[beaverpuq]

Great point Mosky. I recall watching some YouTube corporate guys landing. Captain called for gear down. FO called gear down three green while the gear was still in transit. I saw one green light. I love my floatplane that is always floating!