RCAF looking overseas to fill pilot shortage

[tsgarp]

The RCAF has a bit of problem finding pilots.

No, the RCAF had no trouble attracting qualified applicants. What the RCAF has is difficulty getting those applicants through the training system fast enough. Fixing this problem is out of the RCAF’s hands, and has been ever since pilot training was contracted out.

As for your other points, they are mostly wrong.
-Most of the places the RCAF posts you have some good things to offer, you just need to be open minded.
-If you are flexible and smart you can dodge a desk. If you do get stuck on a desk you can go fly civi in your off time (Instruct, drop skydivers, do helo tours)
-For most pilots, time away from home is comparable to that of an airline
-It’s not the Marines; you aren’t going to be standing at attention yelling ‘Yes Sir, No Sir.” All day. It’s not uncommon to be on a first name basis with everybody except the CO.

The things that do tend to wear people down are the geographical mobility (moving every 3 years or so). This is not all that different from someone starting out in civi flying, and if you play your cards right, you can attain geographic stability after a few postings. The other thing that wears people down are the ancillary requirements that come with being an officer; fitness tests, secondary duties, dealing with government bureaucracy.

[Julian.B]

The RCAF has a bit of problem finding pilots.

No, the RCAF had no trouble attracting qualified applicants. What the RCAF has is difficulty getting those applicants through the training system fast enough. Fixing this problem is out of the RCAF’s hands, and has been ever since pilot training was contracted out.

As for your other points, they are mostly wrong.
-Most of the places the RCAF post you have some good things to offer, you just need to be open minded.
-If you are flexible and smart you can dodge a desk. If you do get stuck on a desk you can go fly civi in your off time (Instruct, drop skydivers, do helo tours)
-For most pilots, time away from home is comparable to that of an airline
-It’s not the Marines; you aren’t going to be standing at attention yelling ‘Yes Sir, No Sir.” All day. It’s not uncommon to be on a first name basis with everybody except the CO.

The things that do tend to wear people down are the geographical mobility (moving every 3 years or so). This is not all that different from someone starting out in civi flying, and if you play your cards right, you can attain geographic stability after a few posting. The other thing that wears people down are the ancillary requirements that come with being an officer; fitness tests, secondary duties, dealing with government bureaucracy.

"Most of the places the RCAF post you have some good things to offer, you just need to be open minded".

That made me chuckle. That's such a "Canadian" thing to say. In other words, "It's a sh*thole". I've been to Cold Lake. No thanks. Even if I could deal with living there, what would my family do? What would my wife and kids do? Go to a sub par school and have sub par opportunities, while enduring an abysmal Canadian winter that lasts 8+ months? Give me a break. Why not move that base to (or close to) Edmonton? At least it's a real city with plenty of opportunities for educated spouses.

Sorry mate. You can't sell me on the military, especially the "Canadian Military" and that's just it. The majority of my pilots friends would not even consider that type of career and I think the retention issue (which we're actually all discussing here) is for those very reasons. I remember how excited I was getting my first flying job up North in the bush. It got old pretty quickly and I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there.

Now that I'm back in the real world, working for a decent airline, having a nice little house in Southwestern Ontario where weather is a lot more tolerable, I really enjoy my life. Hey, there will always be guys and gals dreaming of flying a 40 year old F-18.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

I think I saw it in the last Federal Budget...spend billions, move RCAF bases to big cities so that Julian B might consider applying his formidable pilot skills to the RCAF. The RCAF doesn't revolve around your absurd wishes.

[Outlaw58]

Fixing this problem is out of the RCAF’s hands, and has been ever since pilot training was contracted out.

Home run.

Funny I had a chat with a former colleague this morning and I believe the same thing (almost verbatim) was spoken in that conversation.

58

[Julian.B]

I think I saw it in the last Federal Budget...spend billions, move RCAF bases to big cities so that Julian B might consider applying his formidable pilot skills to the RCAF. The RCAF doesn't revolve around your absurd wishes.

Hahaha. Did you bother reading anything written above? At no point did I ever wish to join the military; any military for ANY reason. I neither care, nor do I have the character to be an army boy.

Doesn't the topic say: "RCAF looking overseas to fill pilot shortage"?

We're discussing possible reasons for that shortage. One of them is the "location" of these postings, that sucks ass for anyone wishing to bring their families there (except perhaps Trenton, Comox and a few others). Have fun "Lt. Dan".

[Outlaw58]

The RCAF has a bit of problem finding pilots.

No, the RCAF had no trouble attracting qualified applicants. What the RCAF has is difficulty getting those applicants through the training system fast enough. Fixing this problem is out of the RCAF’s hands, and has been ever since pilot training was contracted out.

As for your other points, they are mostly wrong.
-Most of the places the RCAF post you have some good things to offer, you just need to be open minded.
-If you are flexible and smart you can dodge a desk. If you do get stuck on a desk you can go fly civi in your off time (Instruct, drop skydivers, do helo tours)
-For most pilots, time away from home is comparable to that of an airline
-It’s not the Marines; you aren’t going to be standing at attention yelling ‘Yes Sir, No Sir.” All day. It’s not uncommon to be on a first name basis with everybody except the CO.

The things that do tend to wear people down are the geographical mobility (moving every 3 years or so). This is not all that different from someone starting out in civi flying, and if you play your cards right, you can attain geographic stability after a few posting. The other thing that wears people down are the ancillary requirements that come with being an officer; fitness tests, secondary duties, dealing with government bureaucracy.

"Most of the places the RCAF post you have some good things to offer, you just need to be open minded".

That made me chuckle. That's such a "Canadian" thing to say. In other words, "It's a sh*thole". I've been to Cold Lake. No thanks. Even if I could deal with living there, what would my family do? What would my wife and kids do? Go to a sub par school and have sub par opportunities, while enduring an abysmal Canadian winter that lasts 8+ months? Give me a break. Why not move that base to (or close to) Edmonton? At least it's a real city with plenty of opportunities for educated spouses.

Sorry mate. You can't sell me on the military, especially the "Canadian Military" and that's just it. The majority of my pilots friends would not even consider that type of career and I think the retention issue (which we're actually all discussing here) is for those very reasons. I remember how excited I was getting my first flying job up North in the bush. It got old pretty quickly and I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there.

Now that I'm back in the real world, working for a decent airline, having a nice little house in Southwestern Ontario where weather is a lot more tolerable, I really enjoy my life. Hey, there will always be guys and gals dreaming of flying a 40 year old F-18.

Julian, you keep bringing up the F18 and Cold Lake...

At first you sounded a lot like someone who genuinely found the idea of a military flying career repugnant. Now it's starting to sound like someone who really wanted to fly fighters and realized he will never fulfill that dream.

You can fly in Comox, Halifax, Ottawa, Quebec city, Montreal, Edmonton, Victoria, Trenton ain't so bad either, and many other places....just not F18s.

58

[Julian.B]

Outlaw.

Honestly no. Honestly. I actually wanted to fly an A330 for Air Canada or Transat. That was my dream. That will never happen either.

I bring up Cold Lake for two reasons:

1. It's an abysmal place to live, mostly due to its shitty climate and lack of things to do
2. The CF-18s are actually an embarrassment to Canada. Even Czech Republic has new fighters than us. That's to no fault of the military. I blame the idiotic politicians that have turned our military into a... how can I put this nicely? "Honorary establishment?". We can't really do anything without the support of our brothers to the South.

[tsgarp]

Sorry mate. You can't sell me on the military.

My post wasn’t for your benefit; it was meant for the other people reading this thread. They would likely appreciate some input from someone who has seen both the RCAF and the civi flying industry.

[tsgarp]

I think I saw it in the last Federal Budget...spend billions, move RCAF bases to big cities so that Julian B might consider applying his formidable pilot skills to the RCAF. The RCAF doesn't revolve around your absurd wishes.

Well, if Jagmeet gets his way, and turns the entire military into social workers, they just might have to move the bases to population centres.

[Julian.B]

I think I saw it in the last Federal Budget...spend billions, move RCAF bases to big cities so that Julian B might consider applying his formidable pilot skills to the RCAF. The RCAF doesn't revolve around your absurd wishes.

Well, if Jagmeet gets his way, and turns the entire military into social workers, they just might have to move the bases to population centres.

Both the NDP and Liberals have shortchanged the military. The Conservatives haven't done much either.

[Tuza]

Outlaw.

Honestly no. Honestly. I actually wanted to fly an A330 for Air Canada or Transat. That was my dream. That will never happen either.

I bring up Cold Lake for two reasons:

1. It's an abysmal place to live, mostly due to its shitty climate and lack of things to do
2. The CF-18s are actually an embarrassment to Canada. Even Czech Republic has new fighters than us. That's to no fault of the military. I blame the idiotic politicians that have turned our military into a... how can I put this nicely? "Honorary establishment?". We can't really do anything without the support of our brothers to the South.

It's not that bad and there are plenty of things to do - you have to climatize yourself to the environment. Not the other way around.

SW ON is okay. I'm from there. Warmish and yeah, if you're not cut out for Cdn wx, probs best not to be here. But the Old Country, fr which many of my family is from, has problems too. Last I checked, it gets pretty cold... most places there.

Plenty of Reserves in the Airforce for you in your area. http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/air ... ntact.page

They work somewhat around your work schedule so you can do both, be part-time, and not move to "abysmal" places with your family.

Many kids from bases I know followed their parents or went opposite. As for Transat - well...lol..better to go with AC at the moment. For the 330...unless your past retirement, lots of time to get there. Gotta work for it, not complain loud. Not a grease wheel.

Good luck. If it's Just because you've got misguided anger toward your dad and the military, probably best not to come on a forum that literally has "AF" in the title.

Also, be careful not to get too used to the warm climate. It makes you soft. Take it from someone who has lived all over this beautiful, hardy, definitely not for the weak, country!

Cheers bud! Good luck to your career path.

[hithere]

I went to school with a lot of “Military brats” growing up and have met many since. I always found it sad how, when you asked them where they were from, it was always “ Well I was born here, spent X years here, spent X years here etc. they basically have nowhere to call home. Don’t get me wrong, I would dearly love to fly an F18 or Tudor but the sacrifice of living in BFE and the aforementioned issues for wife and kids kept me solidly civilian.

[Julian.B]

Outlaw.

Honestly no. Honestly. I actually wanted to fly an A330 for Air Canada or Transat. That was my dream. That will never happen either.

I bring up Cold Lake for two reasons:

1. It's an abysmal place to live, mostly due to its shitty climate and lack of things to do
2. The CF-18s are actually an embarrassment to Canada. Even Czech Republic has new fighters than us. That's to no fault of the military. I blame the idiotic politicians that have turned our military into a... how can I put this nicely? "Honorary establishment?". We can't really do anything without the support of our brothers to the South.

It's not that bad and there are plenty of things to do - you have to climatize yourself to the environment. Not the other way around.

SW ON is okay. I'm from there. Warmish and yeah, if you're not cut out for Cdn wx, probs best not to be here. But the Old Country, fr which many of my family is from, has problems too. Last I checked, it gets pretty cold... most places there.

Plenty of Reserves in the Airforce for you in your area. http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/air ... ntact.page

They work somewhat around your work schedule so you can do both, be part-time, and not move to "abysmal" places with your family.

Many kids from bases I know followed their parents or went opposite. As for Transat - well...lol..better to go with AC at the moment. For the 330...unless your past retirement, lots of time to get there. Gotta work for it, not complain loud. Not a grease wheel.

Good luck. If it's Just because you've got misguided anger toward your dad and the military, probably best not to come on a forum that literally has "AF" in the title.

Also, be careful not to get too used to the warm climate. It makes you soft. Take it from someone who has lived all over this beautiful, hardy, definitely not for the weak, country!

Cheers bud! Good luck to your career path.

That's cool to see Reserve jobs in the RCAF. It's a good way for previous military pilots to keep doing what they love without long term commitment.

As far as "cold climate" is concerned. I spent 5 years up North in Yukon and NWT flying. I've paid my dues. I hate winter, pure and simple. Also being of European descent, I miss the cities. I've never been a nature guy and "hunting, fishing, snowmobiling" are as exciting to me as watching paint dry. I like patios, beer and looking at European hotties walk by. If I had a chance to pick between a nice cottage on a Lake in Canada and living in a small flat in the center of Prague, I'd pick Prague in a heartbeat.

Anyway. Going off topic. I still claim that my opinions, although "ridiculous" to some, is pertinent to this thread, since we're talking retention of pilots in the military. To some, military life is perfectly fine. To people LIKE ME, it's not.

Cheers dude!

[Tuza]

Outlaw.

Honestly no. Honestly. I actually wanted to fly an A330 for Air Canada or Transat. That was my dream. That will never happen either.

I bring up Cold Lake for two reasons:

1. It's an abysmal place to live, mostly due to its shitty climate and lack of things to do
2. The CF-18s are actually an embarrassment to Canada. Even Czech Republic has new fighters than us. That's to no fault of the military. I blame the idiotic politicians that have turned our military into a... how can I put this nicely? "Honorary establishment?". We can't really do anything without the support of our brothers to the South.

It's not that bad and there are plenty of things to do - you have to climatize yourself to the environment. Not the other way around.

SW ON is okay. I'm from there. Warmish and yeah, if you're not cut out for Cdn wx, probs best not to be here. But the Old Country, fr which many of my family is from, has problems too. Last I checked, it gets pretty cold... most places there.

Plenty of Reserves in the Airforce for you in your area. http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/air ... ntact.page

They work somewhat around your work schedule so you can do both, be part-time, and not move to "abysmal" places with your family.

Many kids from bases I know followed their parents or went opposite. As for Transat - well...lol..better to go with AC at the moment. For the 330...unless your past retirement, lots of time to get there. Gotta work for it, not complain loud. Not a grease wheel.

Good luck. If it's Just because you've got misguided anger toward your dad and the military, probably best not to come on a forum that literally has "AF" in the title.

Also, be careful not to get too used to the warm climate. It makes you soft. Take it from someone who has lived all over this beautiful, hardy, definitely not for the weak, country!

Cheers bud! Good luck to your career path.

That's cool to see Reserve jobs in the RCAF. It's a good way for previous military pilots to keep doing what they love without long term commitment.

As far as "cold climate" is concerned. I spent 5 years up North in Yukon and NWT flying. I've paid my dues. I hate winter, pure and simple. Also being of European descent, I miss the cities. I've never been a nature guy and "hunting, fishing, snowmobiling" are as exciting to me as watching paint dry. I like patios, beer and looking at European hotties walk by. If I had a chance to pick between a nice cottage on a Lake in Canada and living in a small flat in the center of Prague, I'd pick Prague in a heartbeat.

Anyway. Going off topic. I still claim that my opinions, although "ridiculous" to some, is pertinent to this thread, since we're talking retention of pilots in the military. To some, military life is perfectly fine. To people LIKE ME, it's not.

Cheers dude!

I'm not a dude.

But cheers to you the same.

Respect all you said minus the hottie part since you're married. Can't even imagine not being happy in mine...although it is my 2nd...

[mijbil]

Big pay jump for experienced captains. Old pay scale topped out at 10 year incentive. Now goes to 20. No more "flight pay" which was a taxable allowance. Now it's all base pay which means pensionable. That said, the bureaucracy is off the charts but if you can handle that..... I know one guy who is perhaps planning to do another 2-3 years ( he is one of the 15 who got back in the Reg Force) since the pension bump will be about 30K per year meaning from 50K to 80K for doing a few more years.
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-nat ... ec-204-215
In a far earlier thread I once said I was getting out and staying out and that's still true, but rumours of the mythical pay increase have finally come to fruition (passed by the Treasury board) so I asked the question of the re-intake guy and what is on offer is YMJ or YPG for flying (instructor in other words) or YWG for paper pusher. We will see how this affects retention with things starting to ramp up again slowly in the civilian sectors but that one guy I mentioned is at WS (laid off) and may elect to stay in the RCAF now for a bit. What is good for all is that this massive pay bump for the RCAF pilots (and SAR-TECHS) will put some pressure on the civil sector to increase pay. Where I am we took what is effectively a 10% pay cut (1000 MYG to 900). Since most of us are not back yet it's irrelevant right now, but as soon as we come back, it will be more than we are making on CEWS and doing McJobs but less than in 2019.
I know the mythical pilot shortage was actually being felt as the smaller carriers. It hadn't quite reached all of 705 land but was starting. Now as things get back to normal over the next while and as some will have retired early and for good and others will have found other careers, then it will be interesting times at the negotiating table.

[confusedalot]

I find the situation very disturbing. In the sense that armed forces management cannot even find the wherewithal to recruit and train a whole bunch of perfectly good people who would make perfectly good pilots. So they need to hire mexicans.

Then again, having the unfortunate experience of being stuck in the public service for 5 years and finally escaped, nothing surprises me anymore.

Goodnight.

[Outlaw58]

I find the situation very disturbing. In the sense that armed forces management cannot even find the wherewithal to recruit and train a whole bunch of perfectly good people who would make perfectly good pilots. So they need to hire mexicans.

Then again, having the unfortunate experience of being stuck in the public service for 5 years and finally escaped, nothing surprises me anymore.

Goodnight.

Oh dear god. Go amuse yourself somewhere else.

Nothing to see here, move along...

58

[confusedalot]

I find the situation very disturbing. In the sense that armed forces management cannot even find the wherewithal to recruit and train a whole bunch of perfectly good people who would make perfectly good pilots. So they need to hire mexicans.

Then again, having the unfortunate experience of being stuck in the public service for 5 years and finally escaped, nothing surprises me anymore.

Goodnight.

Oh dear god. Go amuse yourself somewhere else.

Nothing to see here, move along...

58

Hey, that's cool. Care to explain to a moron like me that hiring front line soldiers from other countries is the way to go? Use simple language, 40 years in the business and 62 years on the planet has been a total waste on low iq levels such as myself who incredibly managed to fly a big part of the world and not even ding a plane or a person. quite a feat for a retard. flying big and small airplanes.

Looking forward to the explanation.

In case u don't get it, I am truly worried.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

I find the situation very disturbing. In the sense that armed forces management cannot even find the wherewithal to recruit and train a whole bunch of perfectly good people who would make perfectly good pilots. So they need to hire mexicans.

Then again, having the unfortunate experience of being stuck in the public service for 5 years and finally escaped, nothing surprises me anymore.

Goodnight.

Oh dear god. Go amuse yourself somewhere else.

Nothing to see here, move along...

58

Hey, that's cool. Care to explain to a moron like me that hiring front line soldiers from other countries is the way to go? Use simple language, 40 years in the business and 62 years on the planet has been a total waste on low iq levels such as myself who incredibly managed to fly a big part of the world and not even ding a plane or a person. quite a feat for a retard. flying big and small airplanes.

Looking forward to the explanation.

In case u don't get it, I am truly worried.

One of the most modern and powerful militaries in the world has many foreign soldiers. On the flip side, some of the shittiest militaries also use foreign labour.

[mijbil]

I find the situation very disturbing. In the sense that armed forces management cannot even find the wherewithal to recruit and train a whole bunch of perfectly good people who would make perfectly good pilots. So they need to hire mexicans.

Do you have a source saying that the RCAF is hiring "mexicans"? I did a quick google search and found nothing. This link does say that you have to be a Canadian ..... https://forces.ca/en/how-to-join/#ci

[Old fella]

I find the situation very disturbing. In the sense that armed forces management cannot even find the wherewithal to recruit and train a whole bunch of perfectly good people who would make perfectly good pilots. So they need to hire mexicans.

Then again, having the unfortunate experience of being stuck in the public service for 5 years and finally escaped, nothing surprises me anymore.

Goodnight.

Let me add another wrinkle called demographics. The selection of twentyish something lot isn’t as abundant as it was during our time as members of that age group. CAF are in competition with others aka industry for that scarce age community. Just read an article(CBC) about difficulties facing employers attracting qualified skilled employees even with attractive signing bonuses. It isn’t the minimum wage service industry that is predominantly affected, tis all over.

[goldeneagle]

I find the situation very disturbing. In the sense that armed forces management cannot even find the wherewithal to recruit and train a whole bunch of perfectly good people who would make perfectly good pilots. So they need to hire mexicans.

Then again, having the unfortunate experience of being stuck in the public service for 5 years and finally escaped, nothing surprises me anymore.

Goodnight.

Oh dear god. Go amuse yourself somewhere else.

Nothing to see here, move along...

58

Pay no attention to him 58, he's just another one getting onto AvCan after a spending a little quality time with the bottle.

For those who really think that recruiting qualified folks from other places is something new, I have news for you. When I did basic training (42 years ago now) my platoon started out with 32 folks, 31 of whom were 18 to 20 year old Canadian kids, and one of whom was a 42 year old foreigner. It was made clear to us at the start, the foreigner was guaranteed to pass the course, a maritime engineer recruited from another nato force. He was 'retired' from his original force and starting a stint with Canada. At graduation about half of our group finished with a half stripe, the other half got a full stripe, but he marched off the parade square in Chilliwack with 3 full stripes, equivalent rank to that which he held prior to coming to Canada.

Recruiting qualified folks from other forces is absolutely nothing new, has always been happening, just like there are other countries who will actively recruit from the Canadian ranks. They are typically targeting folks in highly qualified (read, expensive to train) positions who are reaching the end of a mandatory service stint, or reaching pension eligibility. I know the pension stuff has changed considerably since my time, but as it was set up then, was quite possible to sign up at 18, retire out at 40 then do 20 years of service elsewhere to end up with two full pensions. I know of one person from my cadre in basic training that did just that.

[confusedalot]

got it. with the exception of specifically qualified people for specifically qualified jobs, hiring foreigners because no canadians want to join is nothing to worry about. and therefore should not be addressed.

all I said is that it seems worrisome to me but it seems that the comment is worthy of trashing.

you"re right about the whiskey, had a couple.

[confusedalot]

I find the situation very disturbing. In the sense that armed forces management cannot even find the wherewithal to recruit and train a whole bunch of perfectly good people who would make perfectly good pilots. So they need to hire mexicans.

Do you have a source saying that the RCAF is hiring "mexicans"? I did a quick google search and found nothing. This link does say that you have to be a Canadian ..... https://forces.ca/en/how-to-join/#ci

that's sarcasm.
the link says you need to be canadian but the forces are looking overseas. not sure how to consolidate that

[confusedalot]

I find the situation very disturbing. In the sense that armed forces management cannot even find the wherewithal to recruit and train a whole bunch of perfectly good people who would make perfectly good pilots. So they need to hire mexicans.

Then again, having the unfortunate experience of being stuck in the public service for 5 years and finally escaped, nothing surprises me anymore.

Goodnight.

Let me add another wrinkle called demographics. The selection of twentyish something lot isn’t as abundant as it was during our time as members of that age group. CAF are in competition with others aka industry for that scarce age community. Just read an article(CBC) about difficulties facing employers attracting qualified skilled employees even with attractive signing bonuses. It isn’t the minimum wage service industry that is predominantly affected, tis all over.

I agree, things have changed dramatically since the beginning of the 80's with an over abundance of qualified people. I stayed civil but was darn close to being military when options were not that good back then, accepted and all. what scared me off was all that talk about ending up behind a desk after a few years. I was put into the direct entry officer thing solely based on my flying college diploma, people with high school only got in through the officer candidate training plan, and now university is a must, although there is a "let" for at least community college kids BUT they need to work on university while serving. maybe that may be something affecting things.