Countries better than Canada for flying?

[Bug_Stomper_01]

"You're not getting it! I'd rather pay with my youth, and live in a shithole than sign a $40k bond for a type rating and get a great job out of flight school."

Holly shit. Really? Your life is less important than 40K? You rather live in Thomson MB during your young years than fly a 737 to Athens, Palma de Mallorca or Warsaw? **** me. Once you get to the airlines, use those passes and travel the world buddy. Live your life. This country is as exciting as watching paint dry.

This guy valuing his life at 40k further reinforces why this industry in Canada is so garbage. Gives me rage

[TheStig]

This guy valuing his life at 40k further reinforces why this industry in Canada is so garbage. Gives me rage

Better than an Air Force career in the old country though?

[PitchLink]

This guy valuing his life at 40k further reinforces why this industry in Canada is so garbage. Gives me rage

Better than an Air Force career in the old country though?

Not really nope

[FlyingLion]

"You're not getting it! I'd rather pay with my youth, and live in a shithole than sign a $40k bond for a type rating and get a great job out of flight school."

Holly shit. Really? Your life is less important than 40K? You rather live in Thomson MB during your young years than fly a 737 to Athens, Palma de Mallorca or Warsaw? **** me. Once you get to the airlines, use those passes and travel the world buddy. Live your life. This country is as exciting as watching paint dry.

This guy valuing his life at 40k further reinforces why this industry in Canada is so garbage. Gives me rage

That's the same type of guy who will be extremely happy to fly the 220 at AC for $55k/year for 4 years. It's a loser mentality, and unfortunately a good chunk of pilots in Canada thinks the same way. + they were brainwashed since they were little kids because they really believe that Canada >>> the rest of the World.
At the end of the day, I am fine with the current situation. I still prefer to be paid top dollars to fly somewhere safe with more destinations and cultures. I don't want Canadians flooding the market overseas with their loser mentality. Stay in Canada my friends if you are not convince by Julian.B.
On another topic, if you have some time go look at flightradar24. It seems like Air travel is coming back to normal everywhere in the world except in Canada. I wonder why...

[PitchLink]

"You're not getting it! I'd rather pay with my youth, and live in a shithole than sign a $40k bond for a type rating and get a great job out of flight school."

Holly shit. Really? Your life is less important than 40K? You rather live in Thomson MB during your young years than fly a 737 to Athens, Palma de Mallorca or Warsaw? **** me. Once you get to the airlines, use those passes and travel the world buddy. Live your life. This country is as exciting as watching paint dry.

This guy valuing his life at 40k further reinforces why this industry in Canada is so garbage. Gives me rage

That's the same type of guy who will be extremely happy to fly the 220 at AC for $55k/year for 4 years. It's a loser mentality, and unfortunately a good chunk of pilots in Canada thinks the same way. + they were brainwashed since they were little kids because they really believe that Canada >>> the rest of the World.
At the end of the day, I am fine with the current situation. I still prefer to be paid top dollars to fly somewhere safe with more destinations and cultures. I don't want Canadians flooding the market overseas with their loser mentality. Stay in Canada my friends if you are not convince by Julian.B.
On another topic, if you have some time go look at flightradar24. It seems like Air travel is coming back to normal everywhere in the world except in Canada. I wonder why...

Just got off there watching one of my machines get home in DFW. Pretty pathetic, and jet blue won’t be the last to take over C regd routes with said aeromolesters working for nothing and further ruining what scraps are left in Canada with their blown out well used gaping.... uh never mind, I don’t need a ban lol

[Julian.B]

It's important to highlight two scenarios.

Scenario #1: "Joey Smith" - Candian pilot

Joey finishes high school then decides to be a pilot. He gets a full time job while paying for PPL. He borrows money from the bank to finish his CPL and MIFR. It takes him 3 years to do this, while living with room mates and making close to minimum wage. He feels very accomplished, as he should, because he worked hard and it wasn't an easy thing to do, but he does owe $40,000 in student loans. Being from a typical Canadian family he gets close to zero financial help from his parents, that want to teach him "the value of responsibility". That's okay, he didn't expect it anyway and none of his friends got it, except Mike who's dad (an AC 787 captain) sent him to Seneca. Mike can f*ck off!

Now Joey is ready for that first job. He decides that spending another $10K to become a flight instructor at "Green Meadows flying club" is just not worth it, so being the driven individual he is, decides to pack up his 1995 Toyota Corolla and start driving to "the North". He ends up knocking on doors of different operators in Northern Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. He's told by many to "PFO".

Eventually he ends up in "Mountain Creek" at "Mountain Creek Airways". They have a beautiful C208 Caravan, a Navajo and B200 "charter machine".

- "Sure, we got a rampie position. One year on the ramp min, then you might get your shot at flying this beauty. It's super fun here", sais the Chief Pilot, a single dude in his late 40s that's sporting a grey, unkept beard. "You can fish, swim in the lake and drink Kokanee. We usually do a beer run to Edmonton once a month. Work is 6 days a week with alternating Sundays on call. You have to tow, wash, groom and fuel the planes as well as general ramp duties. You'll be loading and unloading cargo as needed. Pay is $32K a year and you can use the crew house for $500 a month. Bring your own toilet paper".

Awesome. Joey is a positive type and he doesn't mind roughing it out. After all, this is just short term pain for long term gain. One day, he'll be like Mike's father, flying a 787 to Copenhagen, drive a Lexus and have with a cottage in Muskoka. Meanwhile, back to reality at "MCA" or Mountain Creek Airways, he's unloading the lav of a B200.

Months pass by, the winter ones being especially "fun". Working 14 hour days, 6 - 7 days a week eventually pays off and Joey gets to fly right seat on that C208. He now gets to do the morning run at 4am to "Nowhere Lake", where he brings in vital supplies, such as pop, chips and hockey skates. Joey also meets a pretty nice girl, Jenn. She's lived in Mountain Creek all her life. She's a bit chubby, but she's a solid (Northern) 8; besides, she puts out so it's all good. Life gets into a routine. Fly, sleep, have fun with Jenn, drink with the boys and have a good time. Joey also learns to "love fishing", because it's "the thing to do".

After two years and 1500 hrs of flying, he gets that awesome job at "Dream regional airways", flying a Dash 8. He's the envy of everyone at MCA, especially the new kid "Bobby" who just joined the glamorous life of the rampies. Joey moves down to Calgary and gets a roommate... in the NE of the city. Country Hills is for the Teal Team and their well paid captains.

For the next 5 years, he spends his time flying around Alberta. The flying is fun at first. The Rocky Mountains are great, Calgary's a good city and he's made some friends. Jenn broke up with him, but that's okay. His Tinder profile is buzzing with activity since he posted that awesome new pic "Sunrise over the Rocks at the Office - #pilotlife"

Joey is now in his early 30s, has a steady girlfriend and gets that all important job at Teal Airlines. He's an F/O on the 737. It took him 9 years, but he made it. True, he has to commute to YYZ, but that's okay. Eventually something will work out and he'll be back in Cowtown.

Life is good, but sadly, Joey's 20s were filled with up and downs... in more than one way. At least he gets his 1 bedroom condo on 16th AVE SW.


Scenario #2: "János Császár" - Hungarian pilot

János is by default an average Hungarian teen. He graduates high-school and ends studying electrical engineering at the local university. Life is good. Schools is free, the dorms cost close to nothing and although school is pretty tough, he gets some nice brakes. After all, he lives in Budapest, where being a young guy in your early 20s is pretty sweet. Hungarian women are after all... world renowned. During his summer months, he joins the local aero-club and gets his glider license and PPL... for free.

After an awesome 4 years in post secondary education, he decided to apply to Eastern Air as a Cadet on the A320. School is not easy, especially the 14 EASA exams. They suck, but hey that's normal. Engineering was way harder anyway. After finishing his Integrated ATPL(F) course, he gets his first job, flying an A320. The pay is pretty good, but the company takes 40%, until he's paid off his "Cadet fees". It doesn't matter. János still has enough money to rent a flat in downtown Budapest.

He's 24, flying a brand new Airbus and his destinations include: Warsaw, Dubrovnik, Florence, Goteborg, Nice and Porto. Layovers are fun. The crew is young, the flight attendants are a solid "European 9". Everywhere he goes, he's called sir, never has to load a bag or pack a lunch. It's all available at a push of a button "Ding!"

5 years later, at the age of 29, he's left seat on the A320. He buys a house near Budapest, a brand new Mercedes and his wife is a solid 10.

--------------------------------------------------------

Think what you will people. I've lived in Europe and in Canada. I see my colleagues here and there. I heard their stories and it's pretty much the way it is. If you think otherwise, you're either lying or lying. Very few people in this country (Canada) have had an easy ride to the top. Even when they are at the top, it's not really that great. So... you can try to sell me how great and "rewarding" Canada is, when it comes to aviation, but you're only fooling yourself.

[digits_]

You are comparing a common, albeit slow, progression of a Canadian pilot vs a very lucky and rare European pilot.

Canada also has a cadet program via the military that gives you a free glider and ppl license if that is the route to go.

The majority of European pilots do not get a free license and do not a first job (at all).

If you generalize, you could say any Canadian can follow your Canadian scenario, and only extremely lucky Europeans can follow your European scenario.

[Julian.B]

Not true. I'm speaking "Pre-Covid" times. Things have slowed down a bit there too, but check this out.... and this is NOT just the Wizzair Cadet Program:

https://pilot-academy.wizzair.com/

[ReserveTank]

Think what you will people. I've lived in Europe and in Canada. I see my colleagues here and there. I heard their stories and it's pretty much the way it is. If you think otherwise, you're either lying or lying. Very few people in this country (Canada) have had an easy ride to the top. Even when they are at the top, it's not really that great. So... you can try to sell me how great and "rewarding" Canada is, when it comes to aviation, but you're only fooling yourself.

Excellent read! One of the best posts on AvCanada IMO. I'll gloat a bit:

When I got my start in Canadian aviation, I started going the "Joey" route after instruction. Fortunately, I had the multi time to skip ramp duties. I worked with and met a lot of true Joeys out there, simply living to please the 703 boss. Most dreamt of the "leafy" regional. That's a sad existence. Where they would take the pressure, I never had a problem to say no to things like "ducking below," takeoff in FZRA, and bad alternate airports. I wasn't popular but it didn't hurt me (or my pax) one bit.

It didn't take very long for me to realize that I needed to change things up. I began the "Janos" route by finding an international operator that paid good money to fly in a very desirable part of the world. No loading. No guessing bag weights. No Thunder Bay pharmaceutical runs. No unreasonable pressure on the flight crews. Great looking women. The difference is that I neither paid for training nor accepted a "dipped" first year salary.

Now I own 2 houses in Europe, outright. My car was paid cash as well. That's right, chew on that. No payments. I have 2 jet types, one of which is a rare heavy. I've flown to over 50 countries and have had some of the most luxurious layovers that a flight crew can get. Can't get that deal scrambling around NWO. A lot of guys don't even make it out of there. I wince to think that I could have ended up like that.

Joey also meets a pretty nice girl, Jenn. She's lived in Mountain Creek all her life. She's a bit chubby, but she's a solid (Northern) 8; besides, she puts out so it's all good.

Seen a lot of guys let themselves get overextended in NWO because of these Pickle Lake 8s.

He's 24, flying a brand new Airbus and his destinations include: Warsaw, Dubrovnik, Florence, Goteborg, Nice and Porto. Layovers are fun. The crew is young, the flight attendants are a solid "European 9". Everywhere he goes, he's called sir, never has to load a bag or pack a lunch. It's all available at a push of a button "Ding!"

Facts. I've bombed around Europe with alot of these crews, and their environment is proper. Even the short-haul narrowbody and CRJ guys are tidy and professional. Cabin crews, especially in Eastern Europe are generally young, slim, beautiful, and pleasant. No 64-year old fat hag barking at you about chicken or beef.

I tell you man, you hit the nail on the head, as it were.

[digits_]

Not true. I'm speaking "Pre-Covid" times. Things have slowed down a bit there too, but check this out.... and this is NOT just the Wizzair Cadet Program:

https://pilot-academy.wizzair.com/

What is not true? Are you claiming it is common to get a "free" ppl in Europe? Your link mentions 13k EUR by the way, even though it is a great way to get in the cockpit, if you get in.

I believe Romania had a free ppl program for a few years as well. Those programs exist, but are quite rare. It's even rarer to get in.

Comparing a self funded Canadian program to those free ppl programs is not a fair comparison. Might as well compare it to a lottery winner.

[ant_321]

Canadian aviation is a crap shoot. No doubt. If you come from money or have the grades to get into some free European cadet program then that route is great. That isn’t the case for all of us. Flight training in Canada is relatively cheap and everyone is accepted. I came to know a gate agent in AMS pretty well. He was waiting for his grandma to die so his parents could get their inheritance and pay the 200,000 euro tuition for his flight training. If I had the right to live and work in Europe I would be gone in a heartbeat. With that said, I’m glad I’m a Canadian because I simply wouldn’t have had the funds to complete flight training in many parts of the world.

[propfeather]

Thanks for all the entertainment y'all.
@JulienB, you clearly aren't cut out for Canadian aviation. Save you and your skippers the headache and get yourself a fancy city job with a comfortable enough chair for your whiny, entitled ass.

PS The airlines aren't where the fun, rewarding work is. There are many different jobs that can suit a variety of different lifestyles if you can get over your big tin ego.

[Zaibatsu]

Things that don’t happen to Canadian pilots.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=145965

Paying for your type rating AND getting intercepted under false pretences for an extraordinary rendition.

[Maple_30]

I am from France, I used to worked as a flight dispatcher for a major airline in Europe, I got to know a lot of a people who are now airline pilots for different low-cost operators and some made it to a major airline (Air France, BA, and that's pretty much it)

I laugh very hard everytime I see the same argument saying that the pay is a lot better when you start in Europe. Guess what... it's NOT.

The pathway to a cockpit in Europe is pretty easy to sum up :

- 60-70% of student pilots go through a modular route, somewhat comparable to the Canadian way. You end up paying less money (around 70,000€ from 0 to IR/ME and MCC/JOC) but your school doesn't have any partnership or pathway that guarantees an interview with an airline.
The vast majority of modular students in Europe end up at ... Ryanair, if they're lucky.
Ryanair is the biggest employer of low-timers in Europe. Back in 2017-2018 during the hiring boom, Ryanair was hiring 1,000 cadets/year.

Ryanair requires you to pay for your own type rating (which used to be at CAE Amsterdam) which costs 30,000€ excluding VAT and accomodation.
But, Ryanair doesn't only require you to pay for your type rating - you are also required to pay for your interview (!) around 600€, but also for your uniform, hotels when you're out of base (they argue that they give you an extra per-diem when you're out of base, but you still end up paying quite a lot for hotel rooms).

Now, for pay, don't think that Ryanair gives you a normal contract. The EU allows companies in general to go through many different loopholes to pay a lot less social charges. Ryanair used to employ its pilots through an agency named Brookfield, which went down and ended up being Storm McGinley which makes you a contractor for the company.

You can search on Google how many pilots got big issues with their taxes with these kind of contracts. One example among many others : https://www.france24.com/en/20171228-ge ... raud-probe

However, the experience at Ryanair allows you (at least, pre-Covid) to get "better" jobs when you had enough hours; with a full ATPL and 2000h+, a lot of UK pilots went to easyJet, BA, Monarch (RIP), but also Norwegian. And a TON of pilots went to the UAE, Qatar... and a lot of them came back to Ryanair after a couple years, but this time as Captains with a better pay, but this is after years and years.

- 30-40% of students go through the integrated route.
Your school may or may not have a partnership with an airline. Keep in mind that the only schools that have (had) partnerships are CAE Oxford and L3 Aviation (used to be CTC Wings). Those schools allow you to go to easyJet, Virgin, Flybe (RIP again).
Through this route, you do absolutely everyting at the same school, from 0 to sometimes the type rating (if you're a MPL student).
Cost : Anywhere from 120,000 - 150,000€ EXCLUDING your living expenses.

And, when you start your career, you don't make 6 figures a year.
Most cadets make around 40-60,000€/year at Ryanair. And this is good compared to Wizzair who has one of the worst payscale in Europe. Wizzair pays you nowhere close to easyJet/Ryanair and also requires you to pay for a type rating on the 320 series.

Here's the payscale for Wizzair : https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Wizz_Air
A S/O (Second Officer) starts at 16 000 EUR base + sector pay (before tax). Yes, 16,000€/year to fly a fancy A320.

For easyJet (which is by far the best low cost operator to work for), they used to have a contract named Flexicrew with CTC Wings.
After spending 90,000GBP (130,000€) you were paid around 1200€ a month to live in London Gatwick for your line training during 9 months, and then eventually got a better pay which would be almost comparable to Air Canada. But think of the initial investment.... 130K€ !!!

So, yes - you will start with 250h flying a 737NG or an A320 - and sometimes, something even bigger, some cadets at Virgin Atlantic went straight to an A330/350, and yes, with 250h.

And then, there's the 1%, the VERY few cadets that are selected by Air France, Lufthansa, Swiss who have their training fully paid by the airline. But those people are everything but a majority.

Also, please stop saying on this forum that the 14 EASA AATPL exams are hard. They are a big joke, all the questions are in a question bank that has all the questions from the actual exam. Many close friends have never opened an ATPL textbook and only did questions on easyATPL and got their exams with averages over 90%.

Now don't get me wrong, I still believe that the pay at the regionals and the flat pay at AC is a scandal. I am a Medevac Captain and whenever this sh*t blows up I'm going to have a very hard time with the paycut if I eventually make it to the regionals...

Cheers guys

[propfeather]

Typical Canadian "pay your dues" type of mentality. So I have to "eat sh*t" because I want an airline job that:

1. Pays well
2. Gets the respect you require

Being an airline pilot is not being a plumber or a painter, but you Canadians made it out to be. Great. You just punched yourselves in the d*ck. The results speak for themselves. The worst pilot pay in the civilized world. There's nothing else to add.

A lot of these jobs you say make you "eat shit" aren't bad jobs at all. I know many more happy pilots in the 703/4 world than ones flying the fancy jets.
Sounds like you were gullible enough to let some flight school sell you on the 70's jetsetter dream and have now just figured out what the reality is.

What respect do you require exactly?

[‘Bob’]

Haha. Whizz Air!

You’re not getting the respect from those still inebriated East Enders that you’re taking to Luton at oh dark thirty on your first of six legs on the first day of a 100 credit hour month. They’re going to call you things the English language doesn’t yet have a definition for when you charge them forty pounds to check their luggage.

And you’re not getting pay from the company that uses Hungary as a Flag of Convenience and has capped bonuses, actively discourages organization, and is trying to expand into even cheaper countries than Hungary.

Oh man.. enjoy that squalid Cold War era flat and credit posing with that leased C Class as much as you can, because you probably won’t be home to enjoy them much... and your followers will be even less interested in another selfie in front of the Parthenon than you already are.

LiViNg ThE dReAm1

[Julian.B]

Things that don’t happen to Canadian pilots.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=145965

Paying for your type rating AND getting intercepted under false pretences for an extraordinary rendition.

1. You very much "pay" for your type rating my friend, when companies pay you 40K a year to fly a CRJ or Q400

2. That's an absurd thing to say. It could easily happen to anyone flying over a foreign country. If that country's military wants your plane on the ground, they'll do it. Have you forgotten about MH17? PS752? KAL007? There will be huge political and economic fallback because of this. The EU is not happy about it.

[Julian.B]

I am from France, I used to worked as a flight dispatcher for a major airline in Europe, I got to know a lot of a people who are now airline pilots for different low-cost operators and some made it to a major airline (Air France, BA, and that's pretty much it)

I laugh very hard everytime I see the same argument saying that the pay is a lot better when you start in Europe. Guess what... it's NOT.

The pathway to a cockpit in Europe is pretty easy to sum up :

- 60-70% of student pilots go through a modular route, somewhat comparable to the Canadian way. You end up paying less money (around 70,000€ from 0 to IR/ME and MCC/JOC) but your school doesn't have any partnership or pathway that guarantees an interview with an airline.
The vast majority of modular students in Europe end up at ... Ryanair, if they're lucky.
Ryanair is the biggest employer of low-timers in Europe. Back in 2017-2018 during the hiring boom, Ryanair was hiring 1,000 cadets/year.

Ryanair requires you to pay for your own type rating (which used to be at CAE Amsterdam) which costs 30,000€ excluding VAT and accomodation.
But, Ryanair doesn't only require you to pay for your type rating - you are also required to pay for your interview (!) around 600€, but also for your uniform, hotels when you're out of base (they argue that they give you an extra per-diem when you're out of base, but you still end up paying quite a lot for hotel rooms).

Now, for pay, don't think that Ryanair gives you a normal contract. The EU allows companies in general to go through many different loopholes to pay a lot less social charges. Ryanair used to employ its pilots through an agency named Brookfield, which went down and ended up being Storm McGinley which makes you a contractor for the company.

You can search on Google how many pilots got big issues with their taxes with these kind of contracts. One example among many others : https://www.france24.com/en/20171228-ge ... raud-probe

However, the experience at Ryanair allows you (at least, pre-Covid) to get "better" jobs when you had enough hours; with a full ATPL and 2000h+, a lot of UK pilots went to easyJet, BA, Monarch (RIP), but also Norwegian. And a TON of pilots went to the UAE, Qatar... and a lot of them came back to Ryanair after a couple years, but this time as Captains with a better pay, but this is after years and years.

- 30-40% of students go through the integrated route.
Your school may or may not have a partnership with an airline. Keep in mind that the only schools that have (had) partnerships are CAE Oxford and L3 Aviation (used to be CTC Wings). Those schools allow you to go to easyJet, Virgin, Flybe (RIP again).
Through this route, you do absolutely everyting at the same school, from 0 to sometimes the type rating (if you're a MPL student).
Cost : Anywhere from 120,000 - 150,000€ EXCLUDING your living expenses.

And, when you start your career, you don't make 6 figures a year.
Most cadets make around 40-60,000€/year at Ryanair. And this is good compared to Wizzair who has one of the worst payscale in Europe. Wizzair pays you nowhere close to easyJet/Ryanair and also requires you to pay for a type rating on the 320 series.

Here's the payscale for Wizzair : https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Wizz_Air
A S/O (Second Officer) starts at 16 000 EUR base + sector pay (before tax). Yes, 16,000€/year to fly a fancy A320.

For easyJet (which is by far the best low cost operator to work for), they used to have a contract named Flexicrew with CTC Wings.
After spending 90,000GBP (130,000€) you were paid around 1200€ a month to live in London Gatwick for your line training during 9 months, and then eventually got a better pay which would be almost comparable to Air Canada. But think of the initial investment.... 130K€ !!!

So, yes - you will start with 250h flying a 737NG or an A320 - and sometimes, something even bigger, some cadets at Virgin Atlantic went straight to an A330/350, and yes, with 250h.

And then, there's the 1%, the VERY few cadets that are selected by Air France, Lufthansa, Swiss who have their training fully paid by the airline. But those people are everything but a majority.

Also, please stop saying on this forum that the 14 EASA AATPL exams are hard. They are a big joke, all the questions are in a question bank that has all the questions from the actual exam. Many close friends have never opened an ATPL textbook and only did questions on easyATPL and got their exams with averages over 90%.

Now don't get me wrong, I still believe that the pay at the regionals and the flat pay at AC is a scandal. I am a Medevac Captain and whenever this sh*t blows up I'm going to have a very hard time with the paycut if I eventually make it to the regionals...

Cheers guys

Hey good post. Thanks for taking the time to write that. You're not wrong in many aspects, but you're focusing mostly on Ryanair, which we all know it's the absolute worst place to fly in Europe. Also, it's where a lot of young European pilots start out.

Even with that being said, after everything is said and done, the majority of pilots in Europe will have a substantial better lifestyle than their Canadian counter parts. Sure, the Air Canada 777 captain has a nice house and a cottage, but even regional captains here can't afford an average home in Toronto or Vancouver. How many pilots at YYZ commute from NS, NB, etc and end up shacking up in a crew house with 6 bunks to a room? How many of them drive from Guelph, London, Barrie and sometimes even further? Using Ryanair as the sole example of "European Aviation" is like using "Georgian" to sum up Canada. I've only used the examples of low cost carriers, because that's the easiest route to follow there. Notice I haven't used any examples of Canadian pilots that go from Seneca to Jazz and at 250 hrs fly an RJ705, because that's not the norm in this country.

I haven't even mentioned airline like Austrian, LOT, SAS, Finnair, Wideroe, etc. Yes, 100%, getting your license in Europe is much harder than Canada. It's way more expensive. However, once you have that license, it's a much better career than here. Sure we all like different things. If fishing, hunting and staring at trees is your type of fun, then flying a Beaver in Red Like may be your thing.

Nowhere is perfect, but if I had my pick between being a pilot in Europe vs Canada, I'd pick Europe every time, all the time. And you also fail to mention that many of my examples (Hungary), the pay vs cost of living is nothing like Toronto, London or Paris. Have your base in Budapest, Zagreb or Bucharest, your Euro will have a lot more power to get that nicer house, car and enjoy your social activities. My pilot friends in Eastern Europe are way better off financially than I am, not to mention a lot happier with the type of work they do.

I don't particularly enjoy my commute from SW ON (near London) to Toronto. I have to live there because I couldn't even afford a 2 bedroom condo in Mississauga.

[digits_]

You are cherry picking your examples. You want to compare "the norm" in Canada, but you don't want to compare them to Ryanair in Europe, which comes very close to the norm in Europe, if such a thing exists.

Hey good post. Thanks for taking the time to write that. You're not wrong in many aspects, but you're focusing mostly on Ryanair, which we all know it's the absolute worst place to fly in Europe. Also, it's where a lot of young European pilots start out.

vs

Notice I haven't used any examples of Canadian pilots that go from Seneca to Jazz and at 250 hrs fly an RJ705, because that's not the norm in this country.

And you go on with:

And you also fail to mention that many of my examples (Hungary), the pay vs cost of living is nothing like Toronto, London or Paris. Have your base in Budapest, Zagreb or Bucharest, your Euro will have a lot more power to get that nicer house, car and enjoy your social activities. My pilot friends in Eastern Europe are way better off financially than I am, not to mention a lot happier with the type of work they do.

I don't particularly enjoy my commute from SW ON (near London) to Toronto. I have to live there because I couldn't even afford a 2 bedroom condo in Mississauga.

Then why are you comparing a cheap Eastern European city to the most expensive city in Canada? Compare Budapest to Winnipeg or Saskatoon, and you'll get a whole different picture.

Pilots based in Paris rarely live in the city center either, and they'll still have a commute that may take over 2 hours during rush hour.

[Julian.B]

You are cherry picking your examples. You want to compare "the norm" in Canada, but you don't want to compare them to Ryanair in Europe, which comes very close to the norm in Europe, if such a thing exists.

Hey good post. Thanks for taking the time to write that. You're not wrong in many aspects, but you're focusing mostly on Ryanair, which we all know it's the absolute worst place to fly in Europe. Also, it's where a lot of young European pilots start out.

vs

Notice I haven't used any examples of Canadian pilots that go from Seneca to Jazz and at 250 hrs fly an RJ705, because that's not the norm in this country.

And you go on with:

And you also fail to mention that many of my examples (Hungary), the pay vs cost of living is nothing like Toronto, London or Paris. Have your base in Budapest, Zagreb or Bucharest, your Euro will have a lot more power to get that nicer house, car and enjoy your social activities. My pilot friends in Eastern Europe are way better off financially than I am, not to mention a lot happier with the type of work they do.

I don't particularly enjoy my commute from SW ON (near London) to Toronto. I have to live there because I couldn't even afford a 2 bedroom condo in Mississauga.

Then why are you comparing a cheap Eastern European city to the most expensive city in Canada? Compare Budapest to Winnipeg or Saskatoon, and you'll get a whole different picture.

Pilots based in Paris rarely live in the city center either, and they'll still have a commute that may take over 2 hours during rush hour.

In case my English failed me, which could be the case, considering I'm not a native speaker, I am comparing "Ryanair" with a "703 King Air Job" because they are both "entry level jobs" in each respective location. "Maple_30" is using Ryanair crap pay as an example that things are not "great" in Europe. Well they aren't. Ryanair is not great compared to KLM or British Airways. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that flying for Ryanair is better than flying for "Bearskin" or "Little Red Air Service" AS A FIRST JOB

I'm comparing Eastern European cities to Canadian cities (Zagreb vs Toronto) because even once you "advance" to the regionals in Canada, you're more or less forced to live near (or commute) to your base, where as, working for Ryanair in Zagreb you can still have a great life, nevermind working for Croatian Airlines.

Even Winnipeg is insanely expensive for a new pilot. You think a Permiter F/O on the Metro can afford an apartment there? Doubtful. I don't see a base in Winnipeg (for WJ) and the existing "AC base" is well... something out of the ordinary.

Look, I'm going to summarize. Being a pilot in Europe in your early years is much more rewarding (both financially and from a career point of view) than Canada.

[FlyingLion]

You are cherry picking your examples. You want to compare "the norm" in Canada, but you don't want to compare them to Ryanair in Europe, which comes very close to the norm in Europe, if such a thing exists.

Hey good post. Thanks for taking the time to write that. You're not wrong in many aspects, but you're focusing mostly on Ryanair, which we all know it's the absolute worst place to fly in Europe. Also, it's where a lot of young European pilots start out.

vs

Notice I haven't used any examples of Canadian pilots that go from Seneca to Jazz and at 250 hrs fly an RJ705, because that's not the norm in this country.

And you go on with:

And you also fail to mention that many of my examples (Hungary), the pay vs cost of living is nothing like Toronto, London or Paris. Have your base in Budapest, Zagreb or Bucharest, your Euro will have a lot more power to get that nicer house, car and enjoy your social activities. My pilot friends in Eastern Europe are way better off financially than I am, not to mention a lot happier with the type of work they do.

I don't particularly enjoy my commute from SW ON (near London) to Toronto. I have to live there because I couldn't even afford a 2 bedroom condo in Mississauga.

Then why are you comparing a cheap Eastern European city to the most expensive city in Canada? Compare Budapest to Winnipeg or Saskatoon, and you'll get a whole different picture.

Pilots based in Paris rarely live in the city center either, and they'll still have a commute that may take over 2 hours during rush hour.

The audacity to compare Budapest to Winnipeg and Saskatoon...
Budapest has a way better quality of life than those 2 miserable places in Canada. If you had been there, you would know.

[Julian.B]

The audacity to compare Budapest to Winnipeg and Saskatoon...
Budapest has a way better quality of life than those 2 miserable places in Canada. If you had been there, you would know.

100% agree. Budapest is one of the most beautiful cities in the world, while Saskatoon and Winnipeg are absolute s**tholes, 50% due to their insufferable winters and 50% because there is really nothing interesting about those cities. Winnipeg does have very friendly people (for the most part), so at least it has that going for it. Saskatoon... LOL. Isn't that a place one flies over (or near it) from Toronto to Tokyo?

[digits_]

The audacity to compare Budapest to Winnipeg and Saskatoon...
Budapest has a way better quality of life than those 2 miserable places in Canada. If you had been there, you would know.

I'm comparing it based on cost of living in their respective regions.

In case my English failed me, which could be the case, considering I'm not a native speaker, I am comparing "Ryanair" with a "703 King Air Job" because they are both "entry level jobs" in each respective location. "Maple_30" is using Ryanair crap pay as an example that things are not "great" in Europe. Well they aren't. Ryanair is not great compared to KLM or British Airways. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that flying for Ryanair is better than flying for "Bearskin" or "Little Red Air Service" AS A FIRST JOB

Depends. The story above about Ryanair was not complete. You pay the 30k EUR (I was quote 36k EUR 9 years ago), for a *chance* to get hired. You pay for the typerating and they *might* hire you. It gets awfully expensive if you need to do that a couple of times.

Bearskin charged 15k up front I believe, and they guarantee you a job. And that's probably the worst bond out there at the moment. Other operators you just have to pay if you bail out early.

I'm comparing Eastern European cities to Canadian cities (Zagreb vs Toronto) because even once you "advance" to the regionals in Canada, you're more or less forced to live near (or commute) to your base, where as, working for Ryanair in Zagreb you can still have a great life, nevermind working for Croatian Airlines.

Even Winnipeg is insanely expensive for a new pilot. You think a Permiter F/O on the Metro can afford an apartment there? Doubtful. I don't see a base in Winnipeg (for WJ) and the existing "AC base" is well... something out of the ordinary.

Look, I'm going to summarize. Being a pilot in Europe in your early years is much more rewarding (both financially and from a career point of view) than Canada.

One giant aspect you've ignored, is that to really fit in -and often to get hired- during your European career, you have to learn the local language. That's a signifiant hurdle to overcome. Especially in a market where an interview does not equal a job offer.

In general, your comparison suffers highly from survivor bias. You are talking to pilots who made it to the European airlines, and who are apparently happy where they are. That is not the majority. Talk to pilots who got their CPL, and see how many of them are:
1) Flying at all
2) Flying in the country they want
3) Happy with their compensation

Then you would be able to make a fair comparison. And I'm confident you would end up with, on average, a happier pilot in Canada, because a giant part of your respondents in Europe would not have a career at all, and a significant group of them would be seriously in debt at the same time.

[Julian.B]

digits_

I agree with you 100% one one aspect: Becoming a pilot is much easier in Canada. It's a lot harder (financially speaking) to be a pilot there. If you take 100 random kids in Canada vs Hungary and say "How many of them could become an airline pilot", you'll see that Canadians have a much better chance. I'll never deny that. However, ONCE you're able to get your license, under normal times, European pilots are better off. Better job, better destinations better pay (relative to your place of residence).

[Zaibatsu]

Things that don’t happen to Canadian pilots.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=145965

Paying for your type rating AND getting intercepted under false pretences for an extraordinary rendition.

1. You very much "pay" for your type rating my friend, when companies pay you 40K a year to fly a CRJ or Q400

Here's the payscale for Wizzair : https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Wizz_Air
A S/O (Second Officer) starts at 16 000 EUR base + sector pay (before tax). Yes, 16,000€/year to fly a fancy A320.

2. That's an absurd thing to say. It could easily happen to anyone flying over a foreign country. If that country's military wants your plane on the ground, they'll do it. Have you forgotten about MH17? PS752? KAL007? There will be huge political and economic fallback because of this. The EU is not happy about it.

Yes. But not over Canada or any of the boring places Canadian airlines fly to.