Ex-SAA pilot with 100% safety record died because his passenger was too heavy

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I know the litany of accident topics have been tiresome of late, but I'm posting this one now because something similar happened to me (or because of me, depending on your viewpoint) recently.

https://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/sout ... too-heavy/

This was in South Africa. They were somewhere between 11% and 26% overgross, depending on how you calculate it, apparently (the article cites both of those figures). There's a plethora of errors that led to the accident, including:

It said four sources examined during the investigation gave three different maximum weights for the Scheibe.

“Several contradictions are noted ... regarding the weights of the occupants, which are critical to every flight, especially in cases where an aircraft can only take two occupants.”

Why did something similar happen to me? Well, there I am, looking for an instructor at my soaring club. Along comes Fred (not his real name), happy to oblige. We're both slightly overweight, but by no means obese. At an airfield where a few dozen launches in a day is not uncommon, it's not realistic to calculate weight and balance before every flight. You just kinda ask "how much do you weigh? OK, I weigh X. We're close but we should be fine."

We weren't fine. We were ready to pull the release at 500' but decided against it as our tow pilot was one of the best, and we could observe that he was well aware of the situation. Perhaps we should have released at a thousand feet and quickly returned home - but that's not my point. In a plane that lands at 55mph, it was almost impossible to get this thing to fly slower than 60. We were constantly too far below the tug.

The crash in question was also in a plane that was far beyond the forward CofG limit. I did the weight&balance after this flight of mine, and yes, we were 40ish pounds over, in a plane with a max gross of about 1000lbs. But we were well within the CofG limits.

It just takes one single moment of "sounds good" and this can happen. It almost happened to me.

[photofly]

I know the litany of accident topics have been tiresome of late, but I'm posting this one now because something similar happened to me (or because of me, depending on your viewpoint) recently.

https://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/sout ... too-heavy/

This was in South Africa. They were somewhere between 11% and 26% overgross, depending on how you calculate it, apparently (the article cites both of those figures). There's a plethora of errors that led to the accident, including:

It said four sources examined during the investigation gave three different maximum weights for the Scheibe.

“Several contradictions are noted ... regarding the weights of the occupants, which are critical to every flight, especially in cases where an aircraft can only take two occupants.”

Why did something similar happen to me? Well, there I am, looking for an instructor at my soaring club. Along comes Fred (not his real name), happy to oblige. We're both slightly overweight, but by no means obese.

if you’re a 6’ male, obesity begins at 221 lbs. Overweight is 184 and up.

At an airfield where a few dozen launches in a day is not uncommon, it's not realistic to calculate weight and balance before every flight. You just kinda ask "how much do you weigh? OK, I weigh X. We're close but we should be fine."

Why is it not realistic to calculate weight and balance before every flight with a new instructor? If you’re not 100% sure, how hard is it to do the maths?

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

If you’re a 6’ male, obesity begins at 221 lbs. Overweight is 184 and up.

Well by those numbers, I am just under obese, and he is just over. It was more a general way to explain the weights of the pilots involved. We're not small people, but not "fat" either.

At an airfield where a few dozen launches in a day is not uncommon, it's not realistic to calculate weight and balance before every flight. You just kinda ask "how much do you weigh? OK, I weigh X. We're close but we should be fine."

Why is it not realistic to calculate weight and balance before every flight with a new instructor? If you’re not 100% sure, how hard is it to do the maths?

That's a fair question (two, actually). The math isn't hard, but it takes time. I can only answer anecdotally.

The glider had just landed from a previous flight, and had been pulled out to the flight line. A smaller and lighter instructor was going to take me up, but something came up at the last possible moment and he couldn't. So Fred volunteered. Now we're ready to go, and three planes are waiting behind us. Do we really want to be the pair that holds everyone else up, with the tug running and burning money, while we fill out a W&B card? Do we really want to hold everyone else up, while we drive up to the flight shack and do the math because we don't even have a pen with us at this exact moment?

I would somewhat blame "learned deviance" - it's a real thing. There's a better term for it but it eludes me at the moment. The club has had one fatality in 60 years that I'm aware of. I would also blame the fact that I was a new member who didn't want to rock the boat, assured by far more experienced pilots that we should be OK.

Now, I'm not defending the decision; I'm admitting my fault and my part in it, and hoping that humility and acceptance of responsibility can illustrate that it's far easier to make such a mistake that one would think. I'm not a bold pilot, and we're not a bold club. But we made that mistake nonetheless, and in the case of the linked article, people paid for that mistake with their lives.

I do like your "do the W&B before going up with a new instructor" idea though, I'll bring it up.

[photofly]

If you’re a 6’ male, obesity begins at 221 lbs. Overweight is 184 and up.

Well by those numbers, I am just under obese, and he is just over. It was more a general way to explain the weights of the pilots involved. We're not small people, but not "fat" either.

At an airfield where a few dozen launches in a day is not uncommon, it's not realistic to calculate weight and balance before every flight. You just kinda ask "how much do you weigh? OK, I weigh X. We're close but we should be fine."

Why is it not realistic to calculate weight and balance before every flight with a new instructor? If you’re not 100% sure, how hard is it to do the maths?

That's a fair question (two, actually). The math isn't hard, but it takes time. I can only answer anecdotally.

The glider had just landed from a previous flight, and had been pulled out to the flight line. A smaller and lighter instructor was going to take me up, but something came up at the last possible moment and he couldn't. So Fred volunteered. Now we're ready to go, and three planes are waiting behind us. Do we really want to be the pair that holds everyone else up, with the tug running and burning money, while we fill out a W&B card? Do we really want to hold everyone else up, while we drive up to the flight shack and do the math because we don't even have a pen with us at this exact moment?

You don’t have an obligation to fill in a card, or get a pen, any other such thing. You do have an obligation not to fly overweight, and if the only - absolutely the only - way to ensure that is to hold up the flight line - then yes, yes, yes, you want to hold up the flight line. Every goddamn time.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

You don’t have an obligation to fill in a card, or get a pen, any other such thing. You do have an obligation not to fly overweight, and if the only - absolutely the only - way to ensure that is to hold up the flight line - then yes, yes, yes, you want to hold up the flight line. Every goddamn time.

Oh, I agree. A long time ago, I red carded a plane and screwed up everyone's day (I heard a rivet or two pop). I've told ATC to pound sand in more recent times. I'm not afraid to be an asshole, when the situation warrants.

But here's the rub - where do you draw the line? I think I gave it a 5% chance that we were too heavy. What if it's a 1% chance? What if it's a 0.1% chance? Where do you draw that line? We didn't know we were overweight, and with dozens of launches a day, a W&B calculation for every flight is just not feasible.

What if you're doing spin training in a plane that can only do it with ½ tanks, and you left with more than that? Are you down to ½ tanks yet?

It's far easier to make this kind of mistake that I previously thought it was.

[porcsord]

a W&B calculation for every flight is just not feasible.

Really? Are they that much harder on a glider than any other aircraft (I know they are not). And you are talking about weight, it's to hard for you to pull out your phone and add a couple numbers together? With that sort of mindset I don't think flying for a living is your cup of tea.

Maybe do what literally every other operator does, use an ap or make an Excel spreadsheet to calculate WB with simply inputting weights you are loading in.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

a W&B calculation for every flight is just not feasible.

Really? Are they that much harder on a glider than any other aircraft (I know they are not). And you are talking about weight, it's to hard for you to pull out your phone and add a couple numbers together? With that sort of mindset I don't think flying for a living is your cup of tea.

Maybe do what literally every other operator does, use an ap or make an Excel spreadsheet to calculate WB with simply inputting weights you are loading in.

With that sort of "I would never make that mistake" mindset, professional flying may not be your cup of tea.

No, a W&B calculation isn't harder in a glider - it is exaclty the same.

I find it ironic that here I am, admitting such a mistake, and out come the masses of people swearing that they would never make such a mistake. It's easier than you think.

[photofly]

I find it ironic that here I am, admitting such a mistake, and out come the masses of people swearing that they would never make such a mistake. It's easier than you think.

Nobody is saying they couldn’t make a w&b mistake. We’re just pouring (well deserved) scorn on your “I didn’t want to hold up the flight line” excuse. If you didn’t want to hear what you’re hearing, you shouldn’t have written yourself up on a public website.

Exactly how sure do you have to be that you’re not overweight? You need to act with due diligence. You need to take all reasonable steps. If you need to be below a certain weight to conduct a manoeuvre then to immunize yourself from criticism in the event you were wrong you must be able to demonstrate a genuine, comprehensive and good-faith attempt to have achieved an allowable weight. Nobody, not even you, thinks you met that bar, that day.

I'm not a bold pilot, and we're not a bold club.

If your club wants to know what a "bold" club looks like, it just needs to look in a mirror. I have it on good authority that at your club, an overweight instructor (an instructor, for goodness sakes!) and an overweight student are permitted to just climb into a glider and get towed into the air without any assurance of being inside the w&b envelope for their aircraft. And they flew so considerably oveweight that even the tow pilot knew something was amiss. And there was no follow up action, investigation, sanction or reconsideration of procedures. I'd say that's way past bold and out into reckless territory!

[PilotDAR]

Normalization of deviance.

W&B, whether shop done at weighing, or pilot done before a flight are the most screwed up documents I come across when flying different planes. If in doubt, stop and do it again, and maybe have it checked. I have asked to have an airplane reweighed before I tested it, because I was suspicious of the numbers. I was mentored that prior to design approval flight test, I should insist that the modified plane be weighed three times, rotating the three scales for each weighings, and assuring that the values were very close.

Normalization of deviance: When I flew jumpers, as the new pilot, I lacked the confidence to assert that each flight should have a written W&B. As I went along, I saw the jump club easing one more person in, if jumpers "looked light". I began to resist. I asked for actual weight reports per flight. There seemed to always be a reason that was not possible. I decided that flying was not for me, and did not continue with them.

Most airplanes have a tolerance to be a little overweight, and some actually document this in the type certificate. Few airplanes have a tolerance on C of G limits. Flying out of limits could suddenly show you a stability or control deficiency, and it'll be at the very worst time.

[JasonE]

I've flown two airplanes now that had errors on the W&B amendments. One was reweighed has it had errors on every amendment back to new, one was a simple correction.

In my experience gliding clubs are great at making up their own rules and love to enforce them, however not so good at following the ones they should that already exist.

[AirFrame]

But here's the rub - where do you draw the line? I think I gave it a 5% chance that we were too heavy. What if it's a 1% chance? What if it's a 0.1% chance? Where do you draw that line? We didn't know we were overweight, and with dozens of launches a day, a W&B calculation for every flight is just not feasible.

I suggest that anyone who believes that isn't thinking hard enough. Flying schools require it for dozens of flights a day. When it's just you flying your own plane, make whatever shortcut decisions you want to. But when you're flying for an organization (club, flying school, company) you'd better be sure on every flight, not "that looks about right."

It would take literally minutes to set up a Google sheet that you could carry on your phone that had the empty weights and CG info for every glider in your fleet, pre-filled out with your own weight, and you just drop in a passenger (or ballast) weight. It would take seconds on the flight line.

[digits_]

How about you take the airplane in your fleet that has the lowest allowed pax load. You subtract your weight, you now end up with a weight allowance for the worst case instructor.

If your instructor exceeds that weight, you do the full calculation with the actual aircraft numbers. If the instructor does not exceed that weight, you are guaranteed to be good to go.

Would that work for gliders?


But this part of the discussion might be a red herring. I suspect that even if youf *knew* you were 40lbs overweight, you wouldn't have turned down the flight if the experienced instructor(s) didn't mind. That's not an attack towards you, but more an illustration of the dangers of group pressure.

You're hardly ever popular when you are the only one following the rules.

[photofly]

But you may live longer. Popularity vs long life. Hmm.

[JasonE]

Gliders are very sensitive to weight. I did a training flight once when the aircraft at gross weight. It was not very pleasant and the sail plane could barely thermal. I was constantly on the stop turning at slower speeds to hold the nose up, it wanted to transition into a spiral dive all the time. After that I chose more slender mentors....

Always use a pen & paper or some sort of tool if you are close. It's not worth the risk.

[porcsord]

I find it ironic that here I am, admitting such a mistake, and out come the masses of people swearing that they would never make such a mistake. It's easier than you think.

You weren't talking about making a mistake in a calculation, you were talking about deliberately not doing the calculation for fear of holding up the flight line. This isn't irony. This is negligence. I hope the chastising you receive on here is enlightening.

[shimmydampner]

With that sort of mindset I don't think flying for a living is your cup of tea.

That's a rather bold statement from someone who does not fly for a living.

[porcsord]

That's a rather bold statement from someone who does not fly for a living

Whoa whoa whoa, let's not give credit for my cuntyness to someone else. I said that. I fly for a living. I stand by it.

[goldeneagle]

We didn't know we were overweight, and with dozens of launches a day, a W&B calculation for every flight is just not feasible.

Back in the day (early 80's) I had a job flying a light twin, on scheduled service. 5 round trips a day, with occaisional charter in between. A written w&b was required to be filed at the departure point before EVERY departure. Every one was a bit different, always varying passenger loads, different amounts of luggage and freight, different fuel loads. It was the days before computers, so we did em all by hand. Glider ops should be trivial, there is no freight, no luggage, fuel load is always zero, only two numbers can possibly vary. Heck, it would be trivial to make up a chart that has 5 or 10lb increments on the x axis for the front seat, y axis for the back, then just run across where the two weights meet you have a pre-calculated c of g. Calculate the chart once, photocopy it a few times, now you can do a proper w&b for the glider in 10 seconds for each and every flight. Simple chart similar to how some airplane manuals do takeoff distances and such.

With that said, if the glider was struggling on a mere 40lb over max, I think there was more wrong than just the weight.

[Arnie Pye]

I know the litany of accident topics have been tiresome of late, but I'm posting this one now because something similar happened to me (or because of me, depending on your viewpoint) recently.

https://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/sout ... too-heavy/

This was in South Africa. They were somewhere between 11% and 26% overgross, depending on how you calculate it, apparently (the article cites both of those figures). There's a plethora of errors that led to the accident, including:

It said four sources examined during the investigation gave three different maximum weights for the Scheibe.

Last time I checked, weight and balance was not a multiple choice calculation. It's binary. You're either in or you're not.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Nobody is saying they couldn’t make a w&b mistake. We’re just pouring (well deserved) scorn on your “I didn’t want to hold up the flight line” excuse. If you didn’t want to hear what you’re hearing, you shouldn’t have written yourself up on a public website.

I have no problem with the well-deserved criticism I am receiving. My "I didn't want to hold up the flight line" is not an excuse, but it is the reason why it happened, and any discussion about how to prevent a similar mistake in the future cannot ignore that reality if is to be productive.

I'm not a bold pilot, and we're not a bold club.

If your club wants to know what a "bold" club looks like, it just needs to look in a mirror. I have it on good authority that at your club, an overweight instructor (an instructor, for goodness sakes!) and an overweight student are permitted to just climb into a glider and get towed into the air without any assurance of being inside the w&b envelope for their aircraft. And they flew so considerably oveweight that even the tow pilot knew something was amiss. And there was no follow up action, investigation, sanction or reconsideration of procedures. I'd say that's way past bold and out into reckless territory!

3 things: 1) It's not fair to blame the club. We were the pilots and it is only fair to blame us. It ultimately our responsibility to ensure flight safety. Absolutely, better procedures could be in place to prevent this, but also absolutely, the buck stops with the pilots. 2) This is a follow up action. I was spurred to bring it up by reading the linked article, and now I'm seeking input from others so I can bring up the issue fully informed. 3) We're not a bold club. We made a mistake - there is a difference.

A major factor, I think, is that my club typically trains youth groups. A lot of Air Cadets over the years, and we have a youth flight scholarship now as well. So the majority of our trainees are youth, or young adults - and therefore, W&B is not generally a concern, given that the overwhelming majority of students are in the 160lb range. So we've never "needed" a policy to calculate the W&B every time, because it generally doesn't have any impact.

Normalization of deviance.

Yes - that's the term I was looking for. In 60 years, one fatality, and that was a visiting pilot when we were hosting a national competition, so it didn't "hit home". That record has the effect of leading people to think that whatever we're doing, it's clearly working - and as the old saying goes, if ain't broke, don't fix it.

Normalization of deviance: When I flew jumpers, as the new pilot, I lacked the confidence to assert that each flight should have a written W&B. As I went along, I saw the jump club easing one more person in, if jumpers "looked light". I began to resist. I asked for actual weight reports per flight. There seemed to always be a reason that was not possible. I decided that flying was not for me, and did not continue with them.

I've heard nothing but horror stories about flying jumpers. I will never fly jumpers. As many here may guess, I'm not afraid to rock the boat now and again. Beyond the safety concerns of flying for a safety ignorant industry, I just don't think I'd fit in there.

Most airplanes have a tolerance to be a little overweight, and some actually document this in the type certificate. Few airplanes have a tolerance on C of G limits. Flying out of limits could suddenly show you a stability or control deficiency, and it'll be at the very worst time.

We were overweight but well within the CofG limits. The glider was well controllable, but difficult on aerotow, and it wanted to fly too fast, so it was a hard landing.

In my experience gliding clubs are great at making up their own rules and love to enforce them, however not so good at following the ones they should that already exist.

In my experience, you are 100% correct. This is largely because gliding rules are largely left to clubs to police. Did you know there is no test to become a gliding instructor? I don't feel like looking up the regulation right now, but it's essentially a "shall issue" regulation, with the one caveat that you need a signoff from another instructor. IOW, gliding clubs are given the authority to determine who is a suitable instructor. There's no official regulation for cross country flying (which in a glider, is a very different bag of beans). Again, that is left to individual clubs to regulate. I think this level of authority does get to their collective heads at times. They're given too much free reign I think.

I suggest that anyone who believes that isn't thinking hard enough. Flying schools require it for dozens of flights a day. When it's just you flying your own plane, make whatever shortcut decisions you want to. But when you're flying for an organization (club, flying school, company) you'd better be sure on every flight, not "that looks about right."

It would take literally minutes to set up a Google sheet that you could carry on your phone that had the empty weights and CG info for every glider in your fleet, pre-filled out with your own weight, and you just drop in a passenger (or ballast) weight. It would take seconds on the flight line.

Well, yes, except that well over half our members don't take their phones flying, and well over a quarter don't even have smartphones. A preprinted W&B card could work though. We sure seem to be able to have those preprinted cards around when we need them to make sure the tows are paid for.

How about you take the airplane in your fleet that has the lowest allowed pax load. You subtract your weight, you now end up with a weight allowance for the worst case instructor.

If your instructor exceeds that weight, you do the full calculation with the actual aircraft numbers. If the instructor does not exceed that weight, you are guaranteed to be good to go.

Would that work for gliders?

I think this is the best observation/suggestion in this thread so far - or at least it's the most workable. We have two primary trainers, the Schweizer SGS 2-33 and the Schleicher ASK 21. It wouldn't be that hard.

But this part of the discussion might be a red herring. I suspect that even if you *knew* you were 40lbs overweight, you wouldn't have turned down the flight if the experienced instructor(s) didn't mind. That's not an attack towards you, but more an illustration of the dangers of group pressure.

You're hardly ever popular when you are the only one following the rules.

I hate to admit it, but you're probably right. But you did miss the "He's more experienced than I am, so he must be correct" part.

You weren't talking about making a mistake in a calculation, you were talking about deliberately not doing the calculation for fear of holding up the flight line. This isn't irony. This is negligence. I hope the chastising you receive on here is enlightening.

It is, and I welcome more of it, or I wouldn't be posting about it publicly.

With that said, if the glider was struggling on a mere 40lb over max, I think there was more wrong than just the weight.

Gliders are more sensitive than you think.

Last time I checked, weight and balance was not a multiple choice calculation. It's binary. You're either in or you're not.

You are assuming an authoritative source for max gross, which in the case of the linked article, did not exist. It was not binary, and was very much a multiple choice. The report very clearly faults the manufacturer for that error in judgement.

Yikes. Long post. Sorry.