Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

[pelmet]

C-GSCE, a privately registered Cessna 170B, was conducting a proficiency training flight from
High River (CEN4), AB with one pilot onboard. On landing RWY 15 (gravel surface) at CEN4, the
aircraft nosed over at very low speed and came to rest upside down causing damage to the
propeller, both wings and the empennage. The pilot exited the aircraft without injury.

[PilotDAR]

Yup, I believe it. One was flipped right in front of me, while I hovered, holding short for his landing for him to pass in front of me. He did not pass in front, he flipped in front, so I landed next to him, and helped he and his instructor out. Only pride and a 170B were injured. The instructor should have disallowed the application of the brakes during rollout for initial tailwheel training. After chatting with the instructor, I was not left with the impression that he was very experienced either.

[photofly]

Waiting to hear which killer item(s) should be double-checked to prevent this kind of accident

[PilotDAR]

Check that the brakes don't work!

[JasonE]

Flying a J3 off grass, the only time I use the brakes is for run up!

[valleyboy]

Flying a J3 off grass, the only time I use the brakes is for run up!

You mean you actually had breaks that worked on a J-3 -- what a luxury

[TrilliumFlt]

I fly on floats all Summer and skis all Winter what are these "brake" things that you speak of

[PilotDAR]

They're those funny round pedals under your heels, I didn't like them, so I only used them for runups.

[pelmet]

Waiting to hear which killer item(s) should be double-checked to prevent this kind of accident

Thought between the two of us, I might add something useful. Pilots of these aircraft need to understand that the amount of brake applied for a given amount of pressure may vary not only from type to type but from aircraft to aircraft on the same type. It could be a different type of brake unit, such as a mod(upgrade). Jump in the different aircraft and use the same amount of brake application that you are used to in the other aircraft of the same type and you might nose over.

I was a member of a club on a certain tailwheel type and the president was telling me about how grabby the brakes were on that type and that one member flipped his aircraft over while taxing(apparently taxiing fairly quickly and then suddenly wanting to stop). It seemed odd to me because on the serial number I was flying, I needed enough brake pressure application during the run-up(to keep from moving) that my legs were literally tired. I made a mental note(and written as well in my review notes) to be very careful if I ever fly a different serial number of that type.

Another bad idea is brake application while the tailwheel is still airborne on a wheel landing. Perhaps it can be useful in certain rare situations by certain skilled pilots but I tried it once to make a taxiway and fortunately got away scratch-free with a good lesson.

[TrilliumFlt]

They're those funny round pedals under your heels, I didn't like them, so I only used them for runups.

Ah man I don't even get to use them for that

[photofly]

Waiting to hear which killer item(s) should be double-checked to prevent this kind of accident

Thought between the two of us, I might add something useful.

Humour is its own reward.

I have groundlooped twice. Once on a taxiway when a brake cable snapped and the aircraft spun slowly off onto the grass. The other time was after after an engine failure immediately after the "go" part of a touch-and-go, and groundlooping meant the aircraft (and I) avoided rolling off the end of the runway into Lake Ontario. There was no damage either time.

[Squaretail]

Runway 15 at CEN4 is an upslope runway, so any reasonable landing in a 170b should hardly need any braking. However since the gravel does cross the asphalt be extra careful braking, as the difference between the braking ability of the airplane on one or the other is substantial. One wonders if the pilot was trying to stop for the taxiway to avoid a minor back track.

[JasonE]

Flying a J3 off grass, the only time I use the brakes is for run up!

You mean you actually had breaks that worked on a J-3 -- what a luxury

Disc brake conversion

I didn't consider the original ones brakes, wouldn't even hold a run up.

[pelmet]

One wonders if the pilot was trying to stop for the taxiway to avoid a minor back track.

Making the taxiway seems to be an issue. I see that the incident aircraft was doing 'proficiency training'. You never know what someone else might do. I was checking a guy out in an extremely easy taildragger that I would have thought near impossible to groundloop it was so docile. Guess what. My only groundloop when he suddenly decided to turn around to backtrack at too high an groundspeed. Around we went. Checkout incomplete.

Another guy at a nearby airport flipped a plane over braking to make a taxiway.

Just be patient.

[valleyboy]

In my experience aircraft that flip over at a slow speed (I assume that means when after wing and tail are stalled) roll out means a nose heavy c of g and possibly missing ballast. If not you are working at becoming inverted.

Ground loops on the other hand still mystify me why people are so afraid of them and why they have taken on this evil persona.

I have likely completed more ground loops than most. I can't really remember how many I have done but certainly more than a dozen. All were controlled and done on purpose. Not one aircraft bent.

I, like many other here did learn to fly on and flew conventional gear for years. Thinking back I never even heard the phrase "ground loop" while I was building time my licenses (up to commercial). Flying a tail dragger was second nature. We just got in a flew. I guess to some they would think ignorance is bliss. Maybe not thinking about it and not getting fixated is the secret.

To me a ground loop is just one more tool that can be used to save your ass. It's not the monster that seems to be the worry of most today when it comes to flying a tail dragger.

I did find during recent DC3T training and line indoc that most "modern" pilots and products of the current schools, did not understand control inputs required for flying "old" aircraft. Especially ailerons.

nuff said ---

[photofly]

My ‘39 Luscombe had a major repair in 1947 after being ground looped on a student pilot’s first solo landing. I don’t think everyone understood the right control inputs for “old” aircraft even back when they weren’t old.

[TeePeeCreeper]

most "modern" pilots and products of the current schools, did not understand control inputs required for flying "old" aircraft. Especially ailerons.

^THIS!!!

Completely agree with you.

I’ve only ground looped once... slow taxing speed... wasn’t quick enough with the rudder/brake. (Full aileron deflection too!) Nothing damaged but it was a humbling experience in an experimental aircraft (Super STOL) while taxing in a 25 knot cross wind in order to get to the active where the wind was right down the pipe...

One of those “doh!” moments for sure!

Regards,

TPC

[Squaretail]

My ‘39 Luscombe had a major repair in 1947 after being ground looped on a student pilot’s first solo landing. I don’t think everyone understood the right control inputs for “old” aircraft even back when they weren’t old.

Indeed. On perusal of many journey logs, I think I have yet to find a tail dragged that hasn’t sustained damage in its past. Lots of the time it’s well before I started flying. Some hardly made it out of the factory. So the “good ol’ days” were perhaps not so “good”. When you stack on top of that how many rodeo injuries probably didn’t make it into the book, the past maybe isn’t so rosy.

When it comes to flipping over, besides the few events that maybe involve some softer than expected surfaces or the unfortunate discovery of badger lairs, feet on the brakes too soon, too much or both, is generally the culprit. Especially on paved surfaces. Show me a flipped taildragger, and I’ll show you some skid marks. Pun intended.

Ground loops are a different matter. Not all are the same, though I get why folks afraid of them. As time goes on, the costlier they will get. Not to mention that in some aviation circles you might never live that down and your great grand children will bear your shame. In the big scheme of getting personally hurt though, the risk is low.

[pelmet]

I’ve only ground looped once... slow taxing speed... wasn’t quick enough with the rudder/brake. (Full aileron deflection too!) Nothing damaged but it was a humbling experience in an experimental aircraft (Super STOL) while taxing in a 25 knot cross wind in order to get to the active where the wind was right down the pipe...

Taxiing an experimental Super STOL in a 25 knot crosswind. If one insists on making such a decision, a wingwalker or two can prevent an incident.

[TeePeeCreeper]

I’ve only ground looped once... slow taxing speed... wasn’t quick enough with the rudder/brake. (Full aileron deflection too!) Nothing damaged but it was a humbling experience in an experimental aircraft (Super STOL) while taxing in a 25 knot cross wind in order to get to the active where the wind was right down the pipe...

Taxiing an experimental Super STOL in a 25 knot crosswind. If one insists on making such a decision, a wingwalker or two can prevent an incident.

*yawn*

Just had to add your two cents in didn’t you?
FFS, why do you feel the need to diminish another poster’s real world experiences reiterated for other readers?!?

(How many hours do you have on type since you obviously seem to know more about this fairly rare type of flying contraption than I do!?!?)

I’d like to add that this was during an insurance check out with a guy whom was trained and is a demo pilot for the manufacturing company that makes the kit!

Guess I’ll just have to add a second Wx check to my “killer item checklist” right Pelmet?!?

TPC

[rookiepilot]

I’ve only ground looped once... slow taxing speed... wasn’t quick enough with the rudder/brake. (Full aileron deflection too!) Nothing damaged but it was a humbling experience in an experimental aircraft (Super STOL) while taxing in a 25 knot cross wind in order to get to the active where the wind was right down the pipe...

Taxiing an experimental Super STOL in a 25 knot crosswind. If one insists on making such a decision, a wingwalker or two can prevent an incident.

*yawn*

Just had to add your two cents in didn’t you?
FFS, why do you feel the need to diminish another poster’s real world experiences reiterated for other readers?!?

(How many hours do you have on type since you obviously seem to know more about this fairly rare type of flying contraption than I do!?!?)

I’d like to add that this was during an insurance check out with a guy whom was trained and is a demo pilot for the manufacturing company that makes the kit!

Guess I’ll just have to add a second Wx check to my “killer item checklist” right Pelmet?!?

TPC

Yep.

If TSB isn't your speed Pelmet, I did find these openings at the NTSB to fully apply your interest:

https://www.usajobs.gov/Search?a=TB00

[pelmet]

I’ve only ground looped once... slow taxing speed... wasn’t quick enough with the rudder/brake. (Full aileron deflection too!) Nothing damaged but it was a humbling experience in an experimental aircraft (Super STOL) while taxing in a 25 knot cross wind in order to get to the active where the wind was right down the pipe...

Taxiing an experimental Super STOL in a 25 knot crosswind. If one insists on making such a decision, a wingwalker or two can prevent an incident.

Just had to add your two cents in didn’t you?
FFS, why do you feel the need to diminish another poster’s real world experiences reiterated for other readers?!?

(How many hours do you have on type since you obviously seem to know more about this fairly rare type of flying contraption than I do!?!?)

I’d like to add that this was during an insurance check out with a guy whom was trained and is a demo pilot for the manufacturing company that makes the kit!

Guess I’ll just have to add a second Wx check to my “killer item checklist” right Pelmet?!?

Just giving a good suggestion on how one might have been able to prevent and incident/near damaging event. Yes, I have been involved with wingwalking a taildragger in a good crosswind when it was necessary to change hangars.

Just some good advice for those insisting on doing an insurance checkout on an aircraft like that, with ground ops in 25 knot crosswinds(and gusting higher no doubt).

[pelmet]

If TSB isn't your speed Pelmet, I did find these openings at the NTSB to fully apply your interest:

https://www.usajobs.gov/Search?a=TB00

When have I expressed interest in a pipeline(except for my great move in buying Enbridge stock a few months ago). 7.5% dividend and a big capital gain.

[pelmet]

C-FMVK, a privately registered Stinson 108 aircraft was landing at Edenvale Airport (CNV8) after a
flight from Buttonville (CYKZ), Ontario. During the landing a gust of wing lifted the wing, as the pilot
applied engine power for a go-around the aircraft veered to the left and went off runway 13, rolled
into uneven ground and flipped over. The pilot was not injured but the aircraft was substantially
damaged. The wind was reported from 180 degrees magnetic at 14 knots.

[AirFrame]

Another bad idea is brake application while the tailwheel is still airborne on a wheel landing. Perhaps it can be useful in certain rare situations by certain skilled pilots but I tried it once to make a taxiway and fortunately got away scratch-free with a good lesson.

And yet this is likely aircraft dependent as well... I regularly apply brakes with the tail up on a wheel landing in the RV-6. I find with that technique I can more consistently get the shortest landing distance when I need it.

I've only semi-groundlooped once, on an excessively hot day and I was tired and in a hurry to get back to the hangar and some shade. I was a little fast on landing and still wanted to make my turnoff. I started to turn towards the taxiway where I usually do and immediately realized I was still to fast for that and tried to correct, but by that point I was *just* beyond the point of recovery. All I could do was hold on for the ride and do my best to widen the turn (thankfully there are laaaaarge runways at my home airport). I held opposite controls, and as the turn sped up fed in more brake to both wheels and ended up doing a "Tokyo Drift" around to a stop... all three wheels stayed on the ground but the mains were sliding sideways at the end. Still on the runway but facing mostly up the taxiway.