Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

[eeeroger]

There will be a lot of COPE in these threads by pilots who left Porter 17/18’. The salt has already been apparent throughout this pandemic. I think this is excellent news, great for Canadian aviation as a whole!

Where would they have gone that they would now regret not sticking around 5 years to fly Embraers?

I don’t necessarily mean it like that. Just saying the tone on this forum this year has been one where everyone was hoping any airline’s success would evidently end in failure. But to answer your retort; I suppose anyone now stuck at the BOTL at AC, WS, AT, or Sunwing. Lifestyle and seniority matters to some people.
take care!

[A380FC]

World competitiveness is the largest threat facing Canadian airlines and Canadians in general.

I think you nailed it here. US airlines have received billions in non-repayable grants and have been able to "permanently" eliminate all change and cancellation fees following Southwest's model. Will Porter and the Canadian Airlines follow suit? That is the million dollar question.

Porter is heavily dependent on ancillary revenues so if they try to copy the Americans, it will be a heavy reduction to the revenue base. But if they don't, for their US routes, why would any passengers on a non-basic fare choose Porter or any Canadian airlines when they can choose an American carrier and have the option to change/cancel with no fees?

[780Pilot]

I just don't get it. Trying to be something your not in this industry can be very costly. I'm overall bullish on Porter's business model but to me this is hard to understand. Porter does well with regional east coast ops out of YTZ on Dash 8s. Why take a risk like this, especially when you have not even turned a prop in over a year. As others mentioned getting gates out of YYZ wont be a cakewalk. Id assume they would fly out of the same terminal as WJA who won't exactly be happy with that. If this happens say they start running flights to YEG like it shows on the website for possible new routes. You would now have Air Canada, Westjet, Swoop, Flair, and now Porter all running that route. That's about as many airlines in the US that run JFK-LAX. Sure its not the same tail count between those carriers in the US but still, Canada, 38 Million vs 328 million in the US. Then again competition is good for this industry especially here. Certain people in the industry seem to think one of two things. Demand for air travel is gonna explode once all provinces are 100% open, and or trying to take advantage or the big carriers when their beaten down. However this could just be a joke like Flairs expansion, mind you will see how that pans out.

Time will tell...

[fish4life]

I just don't get it. Trying to be something your not in this industry can be very costly. I'm overall bullish on Porter's business model but to me this is hard to understand. Porter does well with regional east coast ops out of YTZ on Dash 8s. Why take a risk like this, especially when you have not even turned a prop in over a year. As others mentioned getting gates out of YYZ wont be a cakewalk. Id assume they would fly out of the same terminal as WJA who won't exactly be happy with that. If this happens say they start running flights to YEG like it shows on the website for possible new routes. You would now have Air Canada, Westjet, Swoop, Flair, and now Porter all running that route. That's about as many airlines in the US that run JFK-LAX. Sure its not the same tail count between those carriers in the US but still, Canada, 38 Million vs 328 million in the US. Then again competition is good for this industry especially here. Certain people in the industry seem to think one of two things. Demand for air travel is gonna explode once all provinces are 100% open, and or trying to take advantage or the big carriers when their beaten down. However this could just be a joke like Flairs expansion, mind you will see how that pans out.

Time will tell...

The problem is they weren’t doing well as a YTZ dash operation. They lost 60 million in 2019 (yes best year of aviation in a while) according to the article with the lawsuit between them and billy bishop.

[fish4life]

I just don't get it. Trying to be something your not in this industry can be very costly. I'm overall bullish on Porter's business model but to me this is hard to understand. Porter does well with regional east coast ops out of YTZ on Dash 8s. Why take a risk like this, especially when you have not even turned a prop in over a year. As others mentioned getting gates out of YYZ wont be a cakewalk. Id assume they would fly out of the same terminal as WJA who won't exactly be happy with that. If this happens say they start running flights to YEG like it shows on the website for possible new routes. You would now have Air Canada, Westjet, Swoop, Flair, and now Porter all running that route. That's about as many airlines in the US that run JFK-LAX. Sure its not the same tail count between those carriers in the US but still, Canada, 38 Million vs 328 million in the US. Then again competition is good for this industry especially here. Certain people in the industry seem to think one of two things. Demand for air travel is gonna explode once all provinces are 100% open, and or trying to take advantage or the big carriers when their beaten down. However this could just be a joke like Flairs expansion, mind you will see how that pans out.

Time will tell...

The problem is they weren’t doing well as a YTZ dash operation. They lost 60 million in 2019 (yes best year of aviation in a while) according to the article with the lawsuit between them and billy bishop.

[Dry Guy]

I suspect there's some psychological factors at play with Michael looking to make his father proud of him and to improve his dad's legacy. As others have mentioned above, if they don't do something drastic Porter is going to be just another failure on Robert's Wikipedia page.

[Sharklasers]

There will be a lot of COPE in these threads by pilots who left Porter 17/18’. The salt has already been apparent throughout this pandemic. I think this is excellent news, great for Canadian aviation as a whole!

Where would they have gone that they would now regret not sticking around 5 years to fly Embraers?

I don’t necessarily mean it like that. Just saying the tone on this forum this year has been one where everyone was hoping any airline’s success would evidently end in failure. But to answer your retort; I suppose anyone now stuck at the BOTL at AC, WS, AT, or Sunwing. Lifestyle and seniority matters to some people.
take care!

Hypothetically if I left porter for AC in 17/18 I would be 70-80% system seniority, a narrow body captain drawing 14500 min a month even during the pandemic, able to hold a variety of senior positions with a pension and basically unlimited growth potential and the ability to fly shinier jets than an Emb over my career. At the very least I also kept working during the pandemic while all my former porter colleagues were riding the dole.
Should I still be crying in my soup over losing the opportunity to maybe fly a large regional jet at some nebulous point in the future? Because I seem to remember the same promotional materials surrounding the 220 announcements that went nowhere.

[altiplano]

Classic case of SJS....

I have heard yet what the EMJ is going to pay.

I wouldn:t be surprised to hear it's the same as the Dash8 rate.

I haven't heard from one ex-Porter guy I know that they regret leaving so they could have maybe flown a regional jet one day for less pay...

[Old fella]

Ok, I will represent the travelling public and from a consumer prospective it would appear competition for our travel dollars will be keen. Bring it on(Porter, Flair et al) we say and wishing nothing but the very best to all entrants going forward to the future. I speak as someone who has never been affiliated with any airline past or present. Good luck to all.

[rudder]

PorterJet will need a niche. What will that niche be?

I doubt that it will be the base fare plus add-on product being offered by Flair. I also don’t see them mimicking Swoop or Rouge.

So what is left? Upscale. Sell premium service and product for economy fares. Example would be what VirginAmerica was offering prior to the Alaska buyout.

Can that type of product be sustained in a market of 35 million, particularly in competition with AC and TS? We will see.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

PorterJet will need a niche. What will that niche be?

I doubt that it will be the base fare plus add-on product being offered by Flair. I also don’t see them mimicking Swoop or Rouge.

So what is left? Upscale. Sell premium service and product for economy fares. Example would be what VirginAmerica was offering prior to the Alaska buyout.

Can that type of product be sustained in a market of 35 million, particularly in competition with AC and TS? We will see.

Anything that Porter does out of YYZ will be matched by AC and WJ.

WestJet has been pretty aggressive at beating down Flair while they are trying to take market share from Air Canada. I doubt that they'll give Porter a pass.

[monsieur_zero]

Any updates on how many pilots got recalled to start in September?

[C-GGGQ]

Bid was yesterday, not sure the exact number but roughly for 120 ish spots if I recall. Another 100 for october. Sounds like thats probably just their comfortable number for actually getting the training completed at a time.

[acpaleaks]

Bid was yesterday, not sure the exact number but roughly for 120 ish spots if I recall. Another 100 for october. Sounds like thats probably just their comfortable number for actually getting the training completed at a time.

How many total pilots at Porter?

[C-GGGQ]

Bid was yesterday, not sure the exact number but roughly for 120 ish spots if I recall. Another 100 for october. Sounds like thats probably just their comfortable number for actually getting the training completed at a time.

How many total pilots at Porter?

295

[FatPilot]

Flying a jet is very different than flying a turboprop. Im not saying Porter pilots cant do it,, but I can say none of them are used to it. There will be some hair raising moments until they get some experience.

[rudder]

Fair question - what is preventing Porter from simply hiring OTS for the E2 operation?

[C-GGGQ]

Fair question - what is preventing Porter from simply hiring OTS for the E2 operation?

Doubt there is anyone to hire? Plus seniority would make that moot. No ones running e2’s here yet. Unless you’re saying AC pilots would “go down” to Porter.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Fair question - what is preventing Porter from simply hiring OTS for the E2 operation?

Doubt there is anyone to hire? Plus seniority would make that moot. No ones running e2’s here yet. Unless you’re saying AC pilots would “go down” to Porter.

There are many people still furloughed in Canada and abroad.

[rudder]

Fair question - what is preventing Porter from simply hiring OTS for the E2 operation?

Doubt there is anyone to hire? Plus seniority would make that moot. No ones running e2’s here yet. Unless you’re saying AC pilots would “go down” to Porter.

I guess the point I am making is what are the work ownership rights for current Porter pilots (otherwise known as scope)?

What prevents Porter from staffing the entire E2 operation with OTS pilots?

What prevents Porter from setting up a separate operating certificate for the E2?

I am not suggesting this will be the outcome. I am just trying to see what protections current Porter pilots have. If all 295 current Porter pilots decide they want to fly the E2, that is 295 extra initial training courses on the Q400 for their replacements.

My guess is MD will not be a fan of that. Then of course there is the issue of E2 pay rates…..

[C-GGGQ]

Fair question - what is preventing Porter from simply hiring OTS for the E2 operation?

Doubt there is anyone to hire? Plus seniority would make that moot. No ones running e2’s here yet. Unless you’re saying AC pilots would “go down” to Porter.

There are many people still furloughed in Canada and abroad.

None with an applicable type rating, so I don’t see the point of letting them jump your own pilots. Especially since once the next bid comes out unless you put in protections they lose their seat because of seniority anyway. I know for a fact that at porter you get bumped down when someone “behind” you upgrades after you.

[C-GGGQ]

Fair question - what is preventing Porter from simply hiring OTS for the E2 operation?

Doubt there is anyone to hire? Plus seniority would make that moot. No ones running e2’s here yet. Unless you’re saying AC pilots would “go down” to Porter.

I guess the point I am making is what are the work ownership rights for current Porter pilots (otherwise known as scope)?

What prevents Porter from staffing the entire E2 operation with OTS pilots?

What prevents Porter from setting up a separate operating certificate for the E2?

I am not suggesting this will be the outcome. I am just trying to see what protections current Porter pilots have. If all 295 current Porter pilots decide they want to fly the E2, that is 295 extra initial training courses on the Q400 for their replacements.

My guess is MD will not be a fan of that. Then of course there is the issue of E2 pay rates…..

As far as I know their bidding system is what would prevent that. Even if they hired ots for the jets you’d never hold it cause someone would bump you down. Now with 30 jets coming (and possibly more q’s) ots will happen. All 295 upgrading still won’t make the 650 pilots their planning on total between the two aircraft.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Doubt there is anyone to hire? Plus seniority would make that moot. No ones running e2’s here yet. Unless you’re saying AC pilots would “go down” to Porter.

I guess the point I am making is what are the work ownership rights for current Porter pilots (otherwise known as scope)?

What prevents Porter from staffing the entire E2 operation with OTS pilots?

What prevents Porter from setting up a separate operating certificate for the E2?

I am not suggesting this will be the outcome. I am just trying to see what protections current Porter pilots have. If all 295 current Porter pilots decide they want to fly the E2, that is 295 extra initial training courses on the Q400 for their replacements.

My guess is MD will not be a fan of that. Then of course there is the issue of E2 pay rates…..

As far as I know their bidding system is what would prevent that. Even if they hired ots for the jets you’d never hold it cause someone would bump you down. Now with 30 jets coming (and possibly more q’s) ots will happen. All 295 upgrading still won’t make the 650 pilots their planning on total between the two aircraft.

The better, more mature collective agreements have wording to prevent displacement simply because someone what's to fly the shinny new toy. Its recognized that the OTS pilots where "required" to be operational as expeditiously as possible and therefore protected in some form or they simply would take the position. However what does happen is that as positions open up on the new toy and get filled by a seniority equipment bid the OTS pilots quality of work life degrades. The risk of a reserve block could becomes a very real possibility for a protracted length of time.

[C-GGGQ]

I guess the point I am making is what are the work ownership rights for current Porter pilots (otherwise known as scope)?

What prevents Porter from staffing the entire E2 operation with OTS pilots?

What prevents Porter from setting up a separate operating certificate for the E2?

I am not suggesting this will be the outcome. I am just trying to see what protections current Porter pilots have. If all 295 current Porter pilots decide they want to fly the E2, that is 295 extra initial training courses on the Q400 for their replacements.

My guess is MD will not be a fan of that. Then of course there is the issue of E2 pay rates…..

As far as I know their bidding system is what would prevent that. Even if they hired ots for the jets you’d never hold it cause someone would bump you down. Now with 30 jets coming (and possibly more q’s) ots will happen. All 295 upgrading still won’t make the 650 pilots their planning on total between the two aircraft.

The better, more mature collective agreements have wording to prevent displacement simply because someone what's to fly the shinny new toy. Its recognized that the OTS pilots where "required" to be operational as expeditiously as possible and therefore protected in some form or they simply would take the position. However what does happen is that as positions open up on the new toy and get filled by a seniority equipment bid the OTS pilots quality of work life degrades. The risk of a reserve block could becomes a very real possibility for a protracted length of time.

Thats why i’m saying OTS will not likely be a thing. Unless the agreement is rewritten they have no protections as far as I know.

[tbaylx]

As far as I know their bidding system is what would prevent that. Even if they hired ots for the jets you’d never hold it cause someone would bump you down. Now with 30 jets coming (and possibly more q’s) ots will happen. All 295 upgrading still won’t make the 650 pilots their planning on total between the two aircraft.

The better, more mature collective agreements have wording to prevent displacement simply because someone what's to fly the shinny new toy. Its recognized that the OTS pilots where "required" to be operational as expeditiously as possible and therefore protected in some form or they simply would take the position. However what does happen is that as positions open up on the new toy and get filled by a seniority equipment bid the OTS pilots quality of work life degrades. The risk of a reserve block could becomes a very real possibility for a protracted length of time.

Thats why i’m saying OTS will not likely be a thing. Unless the agreement is rewritten they have no protections as far as I know.

If they're adding 30 jets OTS will happen. I doubt Porter has the internal experience to adequately staff a training department for E2 operations. They'll need to hire some experienced jet operators to assist. Nor would the company want to lose all it's experienced Q pilots at once to the jet.