No pilot recalls until Spring 2023???

[Dias]

Worse than even. Inflation is now at 3.7%

[Fanblade]

ACPA has been trading horses for donkeys since 2003.

Unfortunately the donkey we get in return dies more often than not. Then were left with nothing.

We should all be used to it by this point.

Which horses?

Exactly.

That is exactly why were are the "low hanging fruit" among employee groups. Short memories.

We haven't actually traded anything for anything during the bargaining process over the past 20 years, and we've always come out even, or slightly better.

Also gotta call you on the we came out even comment.

Some of our wages are down almost 30% adjusted for inflation, since 2003.

Bankruptcy Protection accounts for 15% of that. 20% for the 320.

How did the rest happen?

All of these happened AFTER CCAA and in the last decade. And despite what some ACPA shills may say? ACPA freely negotiated ALL of them. Yes the membership voted TA1 down. ACPA negotiated it and pushed for a yes vote. It was only later that an arbitrator forced upon us what ACPA had negotiated for us. Some ACPA historical rewriters try to use the arbitration to avoid accountability.

ACPA BS. “No no, we didn’t cut pay. An arbitrator did it.” Truth “No the arbitrator imposed what ACPA negotiated.”

- DB pension give away
- Formula pay altered to reduce FO and RP wages.
- New hire pay expanded to 4 years.
- Rouge pay discounts.
- Cargo pay discounts

[altiplano]

Which horses?

Exactly.

That is exactly why were are the "low hanging fruit" among employee groups. Short memories.

We haven't actually traded anything for anything during the bargaining process over the past 20 years, and we've always come out even, or slightly better.

Also gotta call you on the we came out even comment.

Some of our wages are down almost 30% adjusted for inflation, since 2003.

Bankruptcy Protection accounts for 15% of that. 20% for the 320.

How did the rest happen?

All of these happened AFTER CCAA and in the last decade. And despite what some ACPA shills may say? ACPA freely negotiated ALL of them. Yes the membership voted TA1 down. ACPA negotiated it and pushed for a yes vote. It was only later that an arbitrator forced upon us what ACPA had negotiated for us. Some ACPA historical rewriters try to use the arbitration to avoid accountability.

ACPA BS. “No no, we didn’t cut pay. An arbitrator did it.” Truth “No the arbitrator imposed what ACPA negotiated.”

- DB pension give away
- Formula pay altered to reduce FO and RP wages.
- New hire pay expanded to 4 years.
- Rouge pay discounts.
- Cargo pay discounts

I read the "even" comment as sarcasm...

Because that's what most members here think we have achieved and accept as all we can expect to achieve, even though in fact we keep going backwards every time our association makes an announcement of a MOA/AIP/TA/LOU...

We'd fair better unrepresented than ACPA represented.

Absolute incompetence is all I have seen from them. They do not believe in advancing our wages or working conditions.

[RippleRock]

Pure sarcasm. There is no "green font".

Those who don't realize that ---every single time---- we go into negotiations on anything...... MOU's included, we come out poorer as a group. Every single time we either sacrifice precious unity or WACON for meager gains. We soon forget and move on to setting the bar even LOWER. Thanks "yes men".

It is NEVER an even trade.

[NotDirty!]

Pure sarcasm. There is no "green font".

Those who don't realize that ---every single time---- we go into negotiations on anything...... MOU's included, we come out poorer as a group. Every single time we either sacrifice precious unity or WACON for meager gains. We soon forget and move on to setting the bar even LOWER. Thanks "yes men".

It is NEVER an even trade.

Well according to the poll on the other forum, everyone there would have voted “yes” to this deal, so it must be good!

[RippleRock]

Pure sarcasm. There is no "green font".

Those who don't realize that ---every single time---- we go into negotiations on anything...... MOU's included, we come out poorer as a group. Every single time we either sacrifice precious unity or WACON for meager gains. We soon forget and move on to setting the bar even LOWER. Thanks "yes men".

It is NEVER an even trade.

Well according to the poll on the other forum, everyone there would have voted “yes” to this deal, so it must be good!

I would agree. For all the good voting "no" has ever done.....which is nothing. What's the point.

We seem --pretty content-- with our plummeting purchasing power and complete absence of unity.

[hithere]

Ripplerock,
You seem painfully out of touch with the majority of your Voting brethren. You come on this forum to vent and pontificate to a handful of like minded souls yet literally nothing will be gained here other than a few “attaboys” from said posters. Nothing you propose here will ever make it to even an agenda item at an ACPA LEC meeting i because you are an outlier with a limited following. You already work for the highest paying airline in Canada. Clearly that is not enough for you. Let’s say you were to somehow get pay parity with one of the American carriers that you so admire. Would that be enough then? Of course not. Next goal: let’s be the highest paid carrier in North America! Would that be enough? No of course not! At some point money and “prestige” does not buy happiness. Calm the f$ck down and enjoy life and have a drink or go get a hobby.

[altiplano]

Ripplerock,
You seem painfully out of touch with the majority of your Voting brethren. You come on this forum to vent and pontificate to a handful of like minded souls yet literally nothing will be gained here other than a few “attaboys” from said posters. Nothing you propose here will ever make it to even an agenda item at an ACPA LEC meeting i because you are an outlier with a limited following. You already work for the highest paying airline in Canada. Clearly that is not enough for you. Let’s say you were to somehow get pay parity with one of the American carriers that you so admire. Would that be enough then? Of course not. Next goal: let’s be the highest paid carrier in North America! Would that be enough? No of course not! At some point money and “prestige” does not buy happiness. Calm the f$ck down and enjoy life and have a drink or go get a hobby.

Nothing like settling for mediocrity.

I can't believe you take pride in trashing on people that advocate for better for themselves and you.

You'd be happy at the highest paying airline in Burma I'm sure.

You're a professional disgrace. You lack respect for the position and those that came before us and you lack value for yourself and those that will follow.

"Highest paid carrier in North America" - what's wrong with that? Don't you think you deserve it or at least close to it? Most productive Pilot group among large carriers in NA. Most CPA departures by ratio we have given. Most bent over eager to please. What's out all for? You're a fucking embarrassment to yourself, get with the program.

[hithere]

ok but the vast majority of your coworkers disagree with you. so I guess you will just be miserable for the rest of you life?

[altiplano]

ok but the vast majority of your coworkers disagree with you. so I guess you will just be miserable for the rest of you life?

What? Ignorance is bliss? Is that it?

Vast majority are disconnected, ignorant, apathetic. That's a problem of leadership.

You're actively stupid. Can't fix that. GFYS.

[hithere]

Next time you are at the hockey rink with your kid and someone asks you”why are you so unhappy” ? You be sure to tell them: I am an Air Canada Pilot dammit! I should be paid so much more! If I was then I’d be happy

[altiplano]

That's your false narrative.

Super full life apart from this profession today and before I came here, that's why it's so hard to see the failure that is you and this association.

You're an apologist, a shill, a sychophant. GFYS.

[redbusdriver]

"Highest paid carrier in North America" - what's wrong with that?

why stop there? should be best paid in the world no?

[altiplano]

"Highest paid carrier in North America" - what's wrong with that?

why stop there? should be best paid in the world no?

You're right! Worst is the new best!

Improvements and contract gains are for losers!

I love being a company dicksucker and bending over every time they come along asking for something!

Pay, QOL, scope, contract protections... they can keep it!

My ACPA rep can tell me about the great restaurant and Leafs game from the box seats they went to when they gave it up. That's awesome, the company reps are so our friends! Glad to see they show our guys a good time. Love being a cheap date!

Less is more and I'll be happy with it! Yay!

GFYS.

[lee123]

Ripplerock,
You seem painfully out of touch with the majority of your Voting brethren. You come on this forum to vent and pontificate to a handful of like minded souls yet literally nothing will be gained here other than a few “attaboys” from said posters. Nothing you propose here will ever make it to even an agenda item at an ACPA LEC meeting i because you are an outlier with a limited following. You already work for the highest paying airline in Canada. Clearly that is not enough for you. Let’s say you were to somehow get pay parity with one of the American carriers that you so admire. Would that be enough then? Of course not. Next goal: let’s be the highest paid carrier in North America! Would that be enough? No of course not! At some point money and “prestige” does not buy happiness. Calm the f$ck down and enjoy life and have a drink or go get a hobby.

Shame on you

[Fidget]

Those of you complaining your hearts out, why not volunteer for committees or run for election? Stop complaining and fueling your negativity and run for office so we can get these guys out! Do we need change? Yes. Do we need ALPA? Hell no. WE ARE ACPA! Let’s take care of our own shit.

Complain. Complain. Complain. Do something if you think you know better and can do better. Junior members are watching.

[RippleRock]

"Highest paid carrier in North America" - what's wrong with that?

why stop there? should be best paid in the world no?

Alti, I think we are arguing with Rouge guys who are more than happy to strip Mainline bare. They never would have been given the opportunity to make what they are, in the seat they are, and have a relatively decent schedule unless it was strip-mined from Mainline. 320 and 767 Mainline flying was decimated.

I'm only asking to stop the slide into the abyss and work toward unifying the group under one WACON set. For 80 years before us, Air Canada pilots had worked to build a strong, unified, respectful career that was compensated to a level commensurate to the level of responsibility.

This Union has presided over the most precipitous drop in those hard earned gains by continually tripping over themselves to be "first in line" to assist with NO SNAPBACK. Then we wonder why they ALWAYS come to us first and ask for the most. We have no "line in the sand" any more.

Scope let....Sure! That's ---all we have--- If you don't have Scope, you've got nothing. How much of a discount did the Dispatchers take for Cargo? How about the Mechanics? No one....only pilots took a hit. The 10% was unnecessary and an embarasment. How fast and eager were we to "save the day" when the Covid slowdown occured? Again first in line. No Assessment, no market analysis, no "How much will our donation actually save, and what exact impact would that be?" 6-month, 30% wage give, no questions asked, let's start there....WTF.

It's downright embarrassing. We have ZERO self respect. There isn't any coming on the horizon.

PS, "Hithere" I'm bored, and don't like hockey or kids and I don't drink. Don't tell me how to spend my spare time.

[hithere]

I understand the need to vent one’s frustrations and I suppose avcanada is as good a place as any, but if you really want to effect change in the leadership at ACPA, the only way to do it is to run for office at the LEC level. Unless you are willing to do that and unless you can get enough support from the membership to win, you are just spinning your wheels here. And recent voting results would indicate that most prefer a leadership that is willing to work with the company rather than against it

[RippleRock]

Yes...join the LEC/MEC yadda yadda....make a difference. Hear that plenty.

Wading into that toxic cesspool of "groupthink" is the last thing I would ever do. They are "indoctrinated" into believing the entire success or failure of the Company rests in their hands. "Capitulate and work with us or we go under". That's the message. The result is collusion to the detriment of every member, and our 80 year legacy. A legacy we didn't create, but were handed the custodianship of. What $hit custodians of that legacy we have been.

If a pilot group can't be compensated properly at industry standard wages (I mean US and European percentage levels, not the "fly by nighters"), then a major international airline doesn't have a right to exist in the same environment of those that do. There has to be a certain level of mutual respect between the group and Company..... unfortunately it's a one way street.

The dues I pay every month for this "Muppet Show" of a Union, gives me the --right-- to bitch about it. Places to do so unfettered are limited.

[altiplano]

The association will only take supporters of the status quo that will go along with the company as volunteers. They kick out anyone that actually pushes to represent our interests.

The LEC councillors are censured for their input if it doesn't go along with the top.

It's a perpetual 6:5 vote at the top.

The change has to come from the bases that hold a disproportionate say.

[Fanblade]

And recent voting results would indicate that most prefer a leadership that is willing to work with the company rather than against it

Working “with” the company or “for” the company?

There is a huge difference.

Step back and listen to how much our reps sound like you are speaking to management. That is working for, or on behalf of the company. It’s not working with.

ACPA is a Yellow Union. The fact that ACPA operates this way of its own volition, is a testament to management and how well they have “managed” us. If I put my shareholder hat on? They deserve bigger raises.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_union

A company or "yellow" union is a worker organization which is dominated or influenced by an employer,

Some labor organizations are accused by rival unions of behaving like "company unions" if they are seen as having too close and cordial a relationship with the employer, even though they may be recognized in their respective jurisdictions as bona fide trade unions.[3]

[redbusdriver]

GFYS.

not going to win any arguments or change minds with childish behaviour, and as a captain, you should be setting an example.

[altiplano]

GFYS.

not going to win any arguments or change minds with childish behaviour, and as a captain, you should be setting an example.

I am setting an example.

All I see from you and your likes is an attitude of capitulation and I'm not going to take it anymore.

I'm not putting up with those that seek to justify diminishing the position, diminishing the work that came before us. I'm not putting up with people that don't think it's reasonable to push for better.

You come on with a snotty, sarcastic reply to a completely reasonable assertion to strive towards, something that betters you, betters me, betters those around us, and those that come after us:

"Highest paid carrier in North America" - what's wrong with that?

why stop there? should be best paid in the world no?

You get told GFYS.

[redbusdriver]

the sad thing is altiplano, is you can't even be civil towards your own brothers and sisters just because they don't share your view. what's next beating them up in the parking lot? or in the flightdeck should the conversation come up? being militant isn't going to further your endeavours. i think you need to take a break and get some fresh air or get laid.

[altiplano]

the sad thing is altiplano, is you can't even be civil towards your own brothers and sisters just because they don't share your view. what's next beating them up in the parking lot? or in the flightdeck should the conversation come up? being militant isn't going to further your endeavours. i think you need to take a break and get some fresh air or get laid.

To be clear, you don't share the view that we should attempt to advance our position and our profession.

Now you make leaps and day I'm going to beat you up?

Get a life, words aren't violence. And also you're the one trolling me... taking issue with my comment that we should strive for better.

And now you're telling me to get some fresh air? To "get laid"?

What are you a child?

Fact is that the company never takes a break.