Thunder Bay airport accident

[ant_321]

I just found out I know the guy. So sad. A great young man with a true passion for aviation.

[BTD]

https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-news ... sh-4241983

[golden hawk]

https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-news/ ... sh-4241983

[BTD]

https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-news/ ... sh-4241983

[Bede]

. Catching a wingtip for whatever reason could flip it too. Airplanes are very good at ending up upside down after they hit the ground.

I saw the wreckage from about 200’ away. Both wing tips seemed relatively intact. The tail destroyed. Almost like it hit exactly upside down.

[Dry Guy]

Being an Aero Commander hopefully they check what type of fuel was put in it.

[Bede]

Being an Aero Commander hopefully they check what type of fuel was put in it.

Why? Garrett's can run on Avgas. Can't remember the ratio though. Something like 10 hrs every 100.

[Lost in Saigon]

Being an Aero Commander hopefully they check what type of fuel was put in it.

The aircraft in question is actually a “Turbo Commander” with Garrett TPE-331 turbine engines. They will run quite well on Avgas or almost anything that is liquid and burns.

5F54B330-5DA0-4A83-BA0E-59FA535220CC.jpeg (1.19 MiB) Viewed 4628 times

CBE613A3-FA4D-471D-B888-D30955CE72ED.jpeg (125.3 KiB) Viewed 4618 times

[lownslow]

The report is out. Typical TSB, “We know a similar profile was intentionally flown twice that day but that’s not the axe we’re here to grind,” but otherwise seems complete enough. I wonder how the trainee controller felt about the whole affair.

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... c0078.html

[rookiepilot]

The report is out. Typical TSB, “We know a similar profile was intentionally flown twice that day but that’s not the axe we’re here to grind,” but otherwise seems complete enough. I wonder how the trainee controller felt about the whole affair.

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... c0078.html

Gee, did (he) have his camera ready when it all went bad the third time?

Did this controller lose his job? At least?

Brutal.

How about one of you fellow controllers — any comment on the professionalism shown here?

[digits_]

The report is out. Typical TSB, “We know a similar profile was intentionally flown twice that day but that’s not the axe we’re here to grind,” but otherwise seems complete enough. I wonder how the trainee controller felt about the whole affair.

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... c0078.html

Oh god ... That's bad ...

I wonder what the communication with the landing aircraft was about. They don't clarify, yet repeat multiple times they knew each other.


Blaming this on the controllers would be a bit misplaced IMO.

[rookiepilot]

The report is out. Typical TSB, “We know a similar profile was intentionally flown twice that day but that’s not the axe we’re here to grind,” but otherwise seems complete enough. I wonder how the trainee controller felt about the whole affair.

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... c0078.html

Oh god ... That's bad ...

I wonder what the communication with the landing aircraft was about. They don't clarify, yet repeat multiple times they knew each other.


Blaming this on the controllers would be a bit misplaced IMO.

Well, gee, I was taught that from my first PPL lesson some 19 years ago.


Whatever happens, you’re PIC it’s always your fault, not ever a controller’s, like the one years later who pressured me multiple times to accept a vector into a nice line of thunderstorms lit up on my stormscope like the 4th of July. Until I essentially told him to F off.

So sure, egging on a pilot to perform a low level airshow for the tower is just dandy, too.

[digits_]

The report is out. Typical TSB, “We know a similar profile was intentionally flown twice that day but that’s not the axe we’re here to grind,” but otherwise seems complete enough. I wonder how the trainee controller felt about the whole affair.

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... c0078.html

Oh god ... That's bad ...

I wonder what the communication with the landing aircraft was about. They don't clarify, yet repeat multiple times they knew each other.


Blaming this on the controllers would be a bit misplaced IMO.

Well, gee, I was taught that from my first PPL lesson some 19 years ago.


Whatever happens, you’re PIC it’s always your fault, not ever a controller’s, like the one years later who pressured me multiple times to accept a vector into a nice line of thunderstorms lit up on my stormscope like the 4th of July. Until I essentially told him to F off.

So sure, egging on a pilot to perform a low level airshow for the tower is just dandy, too.

Then why do you expect the controller to lose his job?

If this was a first solo student then perhaps you could attribute a significant portion of the blame on the controller. But it wasn't. It was a pilot who flew low level, likely at fairly steep angles, for a living. Often in front of cameras or news crews. Somebody like that should not be influenced by an eager spectator.

[piperdriver]

Oh god ... That's bad ...

I wonder what the communication with the landing aircraft was about. They don't clarify, yet repeat multiple times they knew each other.


Blaming this on the controllers would be a bit misplaced IMO.

Well, gee, I was taught that from my first PPL lesson some 19 years ago.


Whatever happens, you’re PIC it’s always your fault, not ever a controller’s, like the one years later who pressured me multiple times to accept a vector into a nice line of thunderstorms lit up on my stormscope like the 4th of July. Until I essentially told him to F off.

So sure, egging on a pilot to perform a low level airshow for the tower is just dandy, too.

Then why do you expect the controller to lose his job?

If this was a first solo student then perhaps you could attribute a significant portion of the blame on the controller. But it wasn't. It was a pilot who flew low level, likely at fairly steep angles, for a living. Often in front of cameras or news crews. Somebody like that should not be influenced by an eager spectator.

I will not state my opinion about the controller's actions here.

In regards to the pilot I agree/disagree. I agree he should not have been influenced by the controller. But the low level steep turn air work you speak of is performed by the CL-415 and not the Birddog Aircraft. And not every situation or fire would require a steep turn from the tankers it would depend on a a lot of factors. Fire behavior, topography, wind, the lake they are scooping from, etc. The birddog aircraft might go as low as 500 AGL to take a closer look at the fire behavior but is generally up above the tankers at 2000-3000 AGL. Usually performing a continuous right hand turn so the Air Attack Officer can observe the fire from the right seat.

In my opinion to say he flew close to the ground doing steep turns for a living would be a disingenuous statement.

[Donald]

To put any blame at all on the controller is absurd, they don't fly the plane.

Period.

This is 100% on the pilot, and they paid the ultimate price, thank God it was just one fatality. There's even a confirmed pattern of decision making here, how much more evidence do you need?

[Lost in Saigon]

Did this pilot ever have a reputation for being reckless or taking risks?

I guess the only good thing about this accident is that only the pilot was killed. It could have been a lot worse.

[‘Bob’]

To put any blame at all on the controller is absurd, they don't fly the plane.

Period.

This is 100% on the pilot, and they paid the ultimate price, thank God it was just one fatality. There's even a confirmed pattern of decision making here, how much more evidence do you need?

The TSB doesn’t assign blame. It’s objective. They are looking for root causes as to why this plane and pilot wound up being a smoking hole in the ground.

The controller asking for and encouraging this type of flying definitely contributed to the pilot’s decision making process.

If the controller filled a CADORs instead citing reckless and negligent operation of an aircraft, you can bet this pilot would have had a stern talking to by his CP and still be alive today.

Just because you’re not directly responsible doesn’t mean you can’t be culpable.

[rookiepilot]

To put any blame at all on the controller is absurd, they don't fly the plane.

Period.

This is 100% on the pilot, and they paid the ultimate price, thank God it was just one fatality. There's even a confirmed pattern of decision making here, how much more evidence do you need?

The TSB doesn’t assign blame. It’s objective. They are looking for root causes as to why this plane and pilot wound up being a smoking hole in the ground.

The controller asking for and encouraging this type of flying definitely contributed to the pilot’s decision making process.

If the controller filled a CADORs instead citing reckless and negligent operation of an aircraft, you can bet this pilot would have had a stern talking to by his CP and still be alive today.

Just because you’re not directly responsible doesn’t mean you can’t be culpable.

Who explicitly blamed the controller for the accident? Not me.

That being said. This was unprofessional behavior.

I must be old. I come from a time when one falls far below the professional standards expected, they lose their job. It’s sure different today.

Heck, I'm SURE some of you professional pilots would LOVE this guy to be promoted to YYZ Tower. You know, so he can handle your aircraft when it's 200 / 1/2.

[digits_]

Ah please. Nothing unprofessional about what the controller did. He was eager to see planes fly. It's almost as if he likes airplanes and aviation, who would have guessed in a job like that! They are humans, not robots. And it wasn't 200 1/2 weather.

It's not ATC's job to police pilots everytime they do something that might look dangerous or illegal but might not be.

More deaths will be caused by attempting to cover up mistakes from a police force ATC vs the occasional pilot who might take it too far.

[cdnavater]

Ah please. Nothing unprofessional about what the controller did. He was eager to see planes fly. It's almost as if he likes airplanes and aviation, who would have guessed in a job like that! They are humans, not robots. And it wasn't 200 1/2 weather.

It's not ATC's job to police pilots everytime they do something that might look dangerous or illegal but might not be.

More deaths will be caused by attempting to cover up mistakes from a police force ATC vs the occasional pilot who might take it too far.

Nothing unprofessional, if you want to see an air show, go to an air show.
Whose job is it to “police” pilot actions? How do they do it?
It’s called the CADORS, TC can’t be at every airport so an agent that works for the federal government passes information to the authorities.

“Why CADORS?
Good safety information is key to the continuous improvement of aviation safety. As the main source of aviation occurrence information in Canada, the Civil Aviation Daily Occurrence Reporting System (CADORS) is an invaluable aviation safety tool.”

[digits_]

Ah please. Nothing unprofessional about what the controller did. He was eager to see planes fly. It's almost as if he likes airplanes and aviation, who would have guessed in a job like that! They are humans, not robots. And it wasn't 200 1/2 weather.

It's not ATC's job to police pilots everytime they do something that might look dangerous or illegal but might not be.

More deaths will be caused by attempting to cover up mistakes from a police force ATC vs the occasional pilot who might take it too far.

Nothing unprofessional, if you want to see an air show, go to an air show.
Whose job is it to “police” pilot actions? How do they do it?
It’s called the CADORS, TC can’t be at every airport so an agent that works for the federal government passes information to the authorities.

“Why CADORS?
Good safety information is key to the continuous improvement of aviation safety. As the main source of aviation occurrence information in Canada, the Civil Aviation Daily Occurrence Reporting System (CADORS) is an invaluable aviation safety tool.”

If an infraction happened, ATC would likely have created a cador. The fact that they didn't here, means they didn't consider it dangerous or illegal.

It's TC enforcement's responsibility to police pilots. Not ATC's.

You can kill yourself on every takeoff if you yank up the yoke and stall. Do we expect ATC to know the max possible climb rate of every plane, and if a pilot zooms faster than that CADORS it? Will that prevent accidents?

There's an interesting document circling around about pilot life at some Chinese carrier. Every little sop exceedance is recorded and reprimanded. It results in a witch hunt and creates unsafe situations.

[rookiepilot]

Duplicate

[Bede]

The TSB report should be required reading for every pilot. I hesitated to post my observations after the crash, but they're appropriate now. I saw the first fly-by earlier in the day. He took off and as soon as airborne cranked it right over barely missing the tower. I remember thinking at the time, "geez, that's pretty unnecessary and irresponsible. That's low level airshow type flying." When I heard about the accident, I immediately thought of what I saw earlier in the day and suspected this was similar behaviour gone awry. Sure enough.

I get it, we all want to hot dog every once in a while. But this was well beyond having a bit of fun- this was negligence plain and simple. Let this be a learning experience for the rest of us.

[cdnavater]

Ah please. Nothing unprofessional about what the controller did. He was eager to see planes fly. It's almost as if he likes airplanes and aviation, who would have guessed in a job like that! They are humans, not robots. And it wasn't 200 1/2 weather.

It's not ATC's job to police pilots everytime they do something that might look dangerous or illegal but might not be.

More deaths will be caused by attempting to cover up mistakes from a police force ATC vs the occasional pilot who might take it too far.

Nothing unprofessional, if you want to see an air show, go to an air show.
Whose job is it to “police” pilot actions? How do they do it?
It’s called the CADORS, TC can’t be at every airport so an agent that works for the federal government passes information to the authorities.

“Why CADORS?
Good safety information is key to the continuous improvement of aviation safety. As the main source of aviation occurrence information in Canada, the Civil Aviation Daily Occurrence Reporting System (CADORS) is an invaluable aviation safety tool.”

If an infraction happened, ATC would likely have created a cador. The fact that they didn't here, means they didn't consider it dangerous or illegal.

It's TC enforcement's responsibility to police pilots. Not ATC's.

You can kill yourself on every takeoff if you yank up the yoke and stall. Do we expect ATC to know the max possible climb rate of every plane, and if a pilot zooms faster than that CADORS it? Will that prevent accidents?

There's an interesting document circling around about pilot life at some Chinese carrier. Every little sop exceedance is recorded and reprimanded. It results in a witch hunt and creates unsafe situations.

Posted below about the CADORS because you clearly don’t understand the system and how it’s supposed to work.
It’s been a while since I’ve flown a visual departure, aren’t you supposed to climb straight ahead to 500 before making a turn enroute? A steep turn at 45’ would’ve been investigated if a CADORS was issued, without encouraging the behaviour maybe this turns out different, maybe not but I’m willing to bet the ATC tower controller is and has beat himself up over this

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/public ... tem-cadors
Where does the information come from?
NAV CANADA provides about 80% of aviation occurrence information used to create a CADORS record. That information is provided in an aviation occurrence report (AOR). Other sources of information used to create a CADORS record may come from the Transportation Safety Board (TSB), Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), aircraft operators, and other government agencies.

[ant_321]

I was really hoping this wouldn’t be what the report would say but I had a feeling it would. I met the pilot when we were teenagers flying gliders but didn’t have much contact with him in the years leading up to the accident. Sadly many of our mutual friends weren’t surprised at this outcome. Hopefully some young, dumb pilots read this and decide to not be cowboys.