Would you leave your flying job if the vaccine becomes officially mandatory?

[CanadianPilotQc]

My objective here is not to make a debate nor judgment on vaccinated/unvaccinated pilots. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, opinions.

[Cavalier44]

I consider this to be an absolute win.

I find these vaccine-denying, conspiracy-believing types to be the kinds of people that seek constant validation, meaning that they're always eager to share their so-called "theories" with their colleagues, a trait that makes sharing the flight deck with them to be toxic and intolerable.

If they're so unshakeable in their convictions, they should absolutely quit their jobs so that their employer can't coerce them into taking the vaccine. Not only would I not have to work with these types of characters anymore, but I'll also move up in seniority a commensurate amount with each one of these individuals who quits! It's a win-win for all parties!

Cheers to being vaccinated!

[montado]

You think I have cojones? My employer casterated me at my indoctrination . I think few people would believe so strongly in this issue that they would give up their jobs, but I bet a few will.

Still think mandatory vaccines is wrong, and gets the wrong message across. This is just another government @#$! up to add to the list of the poor messages this pandemic. Trudeau was just giving a speech of how he is not going to let the unvaccinated put the vaccinated at risk by letting them on planes and trains… do vaccines work? What risk? Mandatory vaccines are not about public health, this is political IMO. Lots of experts have chimed in and they know covid is going to be around forever and we will live with it.

[smooth]

Agree! and I hope these vaccine-denying people can get off the seniority list. Let rest of us vaccinated crew go back sooner. If you really don't want to take the vaccine please stand with your "right" to the end, DONT get it and DONT come back.

I consider this to be an absolute win.

I find these vaccine-denying, conspiracy-believing types to be the kinds of people that seek constant validation, meaning that they're always eager to share their so-called "theories" with their colleagues, a trait that makes sharing the flight deck with them to be toxic and intolerable.

If they're so unshakeable in their convictions, they should absolutely quit their jobs so that their employer can't coerce them into taking the vaccine. Not only would I not have to work with these types of characters anymore, but I'll also move up in seniority a commensurate amount with each one of these individuals who quits! It's a win-win for all parties!

Cheers to being vaccinated!

[rigpiggy]

I actually left my last company because they mandated vaccinations. Though I ended up getting vaxx'd, if company couldn't understand my freedom of choice. I won't go through the whole thing but" I don't f'n care what you think, your costing me money" I wasn't but that is secondary. I found another place and they get to pay for training for new people(hard to find right now). Cav44, smooth. You two seem like the hipster twits who make the cockpit unbearable.... and to top it off I'm dealing with the summer "flu" right now even though I have been vaccinated. JT go play a game of hide and go fornicate yourself.

[montado]

I actually left my last company because they mandated vaccinations. Though I ended up getting vaxx'd, if company couldn't understand my freedom of choice. I won't go through the whole thing but" I don't f'n care what you think, your costing me money" I wasn't but that is secondary. I found another place and they get to pay for training for new people(hard to find right now). Cav44, smooth. You two seem like the hipster twits who make the cockpit unbearable.... and to top it off I'm dealing with the summer "flu" right now even though I have been vaccinated. JT go play a game of hide and go fornicate yourself.

I have to agree completely.

I find it really strange when people are pro mandatory vaccines. It started with the mask, and now many are latching on to the whole mask idea as if it applies to vaccines. Most of my family and friends are vaccinated, none of them are pro mandatory vaccines. Most of them have moved on and only go through covid policy motions when required.

It’s pretty clear to me that the vaccine protects me to some level, however what everyone else does has little to no impact on my choice and I am just as happy to fly with someone vaccinated or unvaccinated. I’m also happy to have discussions as to why people make the choices they do. None of this bothers me. We live in one of the best places in the world and life is to short to live angry over the political landscape. Covid is not Ebola. Even without a vaccine I kept working. The vaccine is just insurance on the unlikely event that I could die from covid.

Anyways, love working with you all… vaccinated or not.

[rigpiggy]

That and the new CDC numbers are out. Covid hospital entries were 78% obese, and something like 95% of mortalities were of the same ilk. Add that to the age component, and most of you are.worried about nothing.

3 days of alternate cold sweats, and cooking , prolonged headache, body aches, a little loosy goosy, and a chest congestion.

No worse than any bad flu, which I also don't take shots for.

Now day 5 waiting for sniffles to go away so I can rejoin society

[CpnCrunch]

That and the new CDC numbers are out. Covid hospital entries were 78% obese, and something like 95% of mortalities were of the same ilk. Add that to the age component, and most of you are.worried about nothing.

Not really. You can see the data here (figure 2).

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e4.htm

It doubles the risk of mortality, but only increases risk of ICU from 0.5 to 0.6. What you have to remember is that 68.5% of Americans are overweight or obese, so saying that 78% of COVID hospital admissions were overweight or obese isn't a great deal higher than would be expected. (You said 78% obese, but that is incorrect...check your source).

No worse than any bad flu,

...but with a 10x higher risk of death or hospitalisation.

[montado]

No worse than any bad flu,

...but with a 10x higher risk of death or hospitalisation.

For who?

Not for children, not for working adults who are in average health…. Only for those 65 plus, or those in poor health.

I mean the data and the numbers are there. Why is this even a contentious issue?

Yes if you are 50 plus take the vaccine as you will be higher risk. Risk mitigated, problem solved, back to normal life. All this media hysteria about kids being impacted is completely obtuse. The best thing people could do at this point is build our immunity.

Is covid 10x more deadly that the flu for adults who are vaccinated for covid? Where is that stat? Why do you even post garbage numbers? Are you stuck in 2020?

[PilotDAR]

I am happy to have been vaccinated to provide just a little more assurance for those around me that I am less likely to infect them. Sure, nothing in life is certain, but for a couple of needles, and a tiny risk of feeling ill because of it, I'm happy to both create a little more assurance, and to be seen to promote a pro community attitude.

Sure, a person should not be forced to do things in life, wear seat belts, wear life jackets, wear helmets, wear safety glasses, get vaccinated. But non of those modest expectations are terribly burdensome on an individual, and if they choose to not adopt an established protective measure, I think they should also voluntarily remove themselves from an environment which seeks such protective measures without protest.

Government is "the people" (the American constitution uses this as their first three words). It's not the government directing vaccine use, its the people - in this case medical people consulted by leaders we elected, who know zero about communicable diseases. "The government is just the person/people accepted as in change for that place and time. If the Captain and Copilot direct that seatbelts be used for landing, it's about the same thing -they are directing the use of a protective measure. If you choose not to wear a seatbelt in life, don't board a commercial airplane!

This should not be viewed as a "making you do something" situation, it's an attempt to harmonize society to be just a bit more safe. No one told me to get vaccinated, I just did. If I had not, certain things I do would have no longer been opened to me. I'm entirely content with that.

[CpnCrunch]

For who?

In total. Covid deaths are about 10x flu deaths per year.

Not for children, not for working adults who are in average health…. Only for those 65 plus, or those in poor health.

You can see a comparison here:

https://freopp.org/comparing-the-risk-o ... 3a1c76c198

If you're over 35 years old then covid has 10x higher mortality than flu.

I mean the data and the numbers are there. Why is this even a contentious issue?

Because most people don't bother looking at the data. They just seem to pull the desired answer out of their ass.

Is covid 10x more deadly that the flu for adults who are vaccinated for covid? Where is that stat?

No, unvaccinated.

Why do you even post garbage numbers? Are you stuck in 2020?

Why do you make up dumb shit and say I posted it?

[montado]

Why do you make up dumb shit and say I posted it?

I see a flaw in how you present the data.

If you do the same stats for Canada you will come up with a much smaller number in the covid deaths vs influenza… also every flu season has different numbers, so this direct comparison seems flawed. You could have a year where covid has 10x the flu deaths and another year where it’s 3x the flu deaths.

Does this mean covid is more deadly in America? Does this mean as a Canadian, covid is only 3x as deadly as the flu?

If I wanted to come up with a way to look at the data that seems like a rational way, may I suggest you look at the IFR.

The IFR for covid is 0.5 among all age groups, this is with zero vaccines.

The IFR for the flu is 0.1 among all age groups, this is with vaccines, mostly taken by more vulnerable age groups.

So then we need to ask what is the IFR of covid if we vaccinate most of our population?

Without a vaccine covid is 5x more deadly than the flu. With a vaccine, it can only be less.

So do you stand by the way you present the data? You literally presented a table representing the first year of the pandemic where they had no vaccines, it’s only looks at the USA to make the comparison directly against flu deaths (for the same time period I’m guessing?). If you took Canada’s data of 8k flu deaths vs the 24k covid deaths it would appear that covid is only 3x as deadly, but like I said this is not how science does math. The question is if infected what is the chance of death, and that is the IFR.

I mean I think your assessment is a little ridiculous. You are basically trying to convince me that my chance of death from covid is 1 in 100. 1 percent. That’s 10x more deadly than the flu. Do you think I would be going to work and among thousands of people if my chance of death was 1 in 100? We are pretty much functioning normally. An IFR of 1 percent is pretty huge, I don’t think life would be so normal. 1 percent is closer to what the CFRs look like as we can’t catch all cases in testing. Studies are showing actual cases are about 4x higher than cases counts. That puts America at 150 million people infected with covid, or nearly half the population. Where are the 1.5 million deaths? Ah, it’s not 1.5 million… it’s about half that… funny how the math checks out… IFR is 0.5 percent, or about 5x the flu, when we had zero vaccines.

And just to add, here is a direct quote from your link you posted

Those between 55 and 75 years of age are somewhere in between. In aggregate, those in this age range are roughly 4 times as likely to die of COVID-19 than influenza.

Yet somehow you came up with covid is 10x more deadly than the flu overall, and no mention of how things have changed with vaccines. Dare I say your take is completely idiotic. All I did was read the data you presented, yet somehow your take is so different…. Hmm.

[CpnCrunch]

I see a flaw in how you present the data.

o rly?

If you do the same stats for Canada you will come up with a much smaller number in the covid deaths vs influenza… also every flu season has different numbers, so this direct comparison seems flawed. You could have a year where covid has 10x the flu deaths and another year where it’s 3x the flu deaths.

You can look at the figures over the past 10 years in Canada or USA, or look at the document I posted above.

The IFR for covid is 0.5 among all age groups, this is with zero vaccines.

The IFR for the flu is 0.1 among all age groups, this is with vaccines, mostly taken by more vulnerable age groups.

It's difficult knowing exact figures as it depends on a lot of variables. But we do know that covid is much worse than flu, and even your 5x figures confirm that.

So do you stand by the way you present the data? You literally presented a table representing the first year of the pandemic where they had no vaccines,

That is what the entire discussion was about...whether covid is the same as the flu for unvaccinated people.

If you took Canada’s data of 8k flu deaths vs the 24k covid deaths it would appear that covid is only 3x as deadly, but like I said this is not how science does math. The question is if infected what is the chance of death, and that is the IFR.

It's 3.5k per year. The 8k figure is flu+pneumonia.

Yet somehow you came up with covid is 10x more deadly than the flu overall, and no mention of how things have changed with vaccines. Dare I say your take is completely idiotic. All I did was read the data you presented, yet somehow your take is so different…. Hmm.

If you look at total deaths in an average year, covid in 2020 had 8-10x more deaths in USA and Canada. That is with a lot of social distancing. That link I posted gives an average ratio of about 10x (550000 vs 60000). You can see from the bar chart the relative risk in the 55-75 age group is about 13x. The 4x they are talking about seems to be the under 15-24 group. Also note that this data also includes pneumonia, so flu will be lower.

[smooth]

well said

I am happy to have been vaccinated to provide just a little more assurance for those around me that I am less likely to infect them. Sure, nothing in life is certain, but for a couple of needles, and a tiny risk of feeling ill because of it, I'm happy to both create a little more assurance, and to be seen to promote a pro community attitude.

Sure, a person should not be forced to do things in life, wear seat belts, wear life jackets, wear helmets, wear safety glasses, get vaccinated. But non of those modest expectations are terribly burdensome on an individual, and if they choose to not adopt an established protective measure, I think they should also voluntarily remove themselves from an environment which seeks such protective measures without protest.

Government is "the people" (the American constitution uses this as their first three words). It's not the government directing vaccine use, its the people - in this case medical people consulted by leaders we elected, who know zero about communicable diseases. "The government is just the person/people accepted as in change for that place and time. If the Captain and Copilot direct that seatbelts be used for landing, it's about the same thing -they are directing the use of a protective measure. If you choose not to wear a seatbelt in life, don't board a commercial airplane!

This should not be viewed as a "making you do something" situation, it's an attempt to harmonize society to be just a bit more safe. No one told me to get vaccinated, I just did. If I had not, certain things I do would have no longer been opened to me. I'm entirely content with that.

[digits_]

and a tiny risk of feeling ill because of it

The younger you are, the more guaranteed you will be ill of it. 1-3 days seems to be common. The younger you are, the less chance you have to be really sick of covid.


As food for thought: with 2 vaccines, I've wasted 6 vacation days on getting the shot (I really should have gotten the shots during work days, guess I'm too nice ). If I actually got covid, realistic chances are I would only have been sick for 4 days or less. A tiny chance I would have died, just as with anything in life.

This balance will be different for everyone, but allowing people to have a real choice (not by blackmailing them into getting it) would be fair.

[rigpiggy]

Sorry, I don't give a rat's arse about the feelings of greater society. I won't force my thoughts upon others. Providing they don't force there beliefs upon me.

[Aviatard]

Sorry, I don't give a rat's arse about the feelings of greater society.

Then can you please pay back any and all health care benefits you’ve received to date?

[porcsord]

This.

I am happy to have been vaccinated to provide just a little more assurance for those around me that I am less likely to infect them. Sure, nothing in life is certain, but for a couple of needles, and a tiny risk of feeling ill because of it, I'm happy to both create a little more assurance, and to be seen to promote a pro community attitude.

Sure, a person should not be forced to do things in life, wear seat belts, wear life jackets, wear helmets, wear safety glasses, get vaccinated. But non of those modest expectations are terribly burdensome on an individual, and if they choose to not adopt an established protective measure, I think they should also voluntarily remove themselves from an environment which seeks such protective measures without protest.

Government is "the people" (the American constitution uses this as their first three words). It's not the government directing vaccine use, its the people - in this case medical people consulted by leaders we elected, who know zero about communicable diseases. "The government is just the person/people accepted as in change for that place and time. If the Captain and Copilot direct that seatbelts be used for landing, it's about the same thing -they are directing the use of a protective measure. If you choose not to wear a seatbelt in life, don't board a commercial airplane!

This should not be viewed as a "making you do something" situation, it's an attempt to harmonize society to be just a bit more safe. No one told me to get vaccinated, I just did. If I had not, certain things I do would have no longer been opened to me. I'm entirely content with that.

I agree that everybody should have the right to decide if they get vaccinated, that does not mean however that you have the right to be a pilot. You have the right to seek employment, but it is not your right to have a specific job.

[Arnie Pye]

I just flew with a guy like this the other day. You know the kind, "you'd have to put a bullet in my head before you put a needle in my arm" type of guy.
We were flying when the PM announced mandatory vaccines.

While we were flying, I actually asked him what he would do if he was painted into a corner and vaccines became like RAIC's, necessary to remain employed. He pronounced from the top of his soapbox that he would rather be fired than get a vaccine. He openly welcomed it.

I'm going to guess that every one of these guys are all flash and no bang. I'd be willing to bet that these self absorbed people will [begrudgingly] get a vaccine and carry on preaching to anyone that will listen, and many who won't, that the only reason they got poison injected into their arm was to maintain employment. I'm betting almost no one falls on their sward.

The unvaccinated don’t seem to understand that their personal choice and freedom has consequences beyond themselves. It literally puts others in society at risk (yes, I know, you've already said you don't care about the greater society).

If you believe that you are generally healthy and don’t need the vaccine then by the same token you are also healthy enough to withstand any side-effects of the vaccine of which there have been relatively few in the long term.

[rigpiggy]

Sorry, I don't give a rat's arse about the feelings of greater society.

Then can you please pay back any and all health care benefits you’ve received to date?

Sure would you be fine with paying back all the taxes I've paid for 50 years first