SAR contact required on flight plan?

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digits_
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SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by digits_ »

So, today I got an earful from the local FSS because I was filing a flight plan and I could not provide a SAR contact. The reason for this? The two people I usually use were with me in the airplane. I was told this is not appropriate and I should rethink the way I fly. Apparently there is always someone on the ground who needs to know when I am flying. I told the gentleman that this was the reason I was filing a flight plan (and not a flight note or a flight itinerary with a responsible person). He told me that was only part of the reason one should file a flightplan.


Questions:

1) What is the purpose of a SAR contact? I thought it was a next of kin kind of thing that would be informed that "hey, XXX is missing, my condolences".
2) If my SAR contact doesn't answer the phone (or I don't provide one), will this affect a herc or heli showing up to save me if I crash?
3) Did I, legally speaking, do anything wrong?
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photofly
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Re: SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by photofly »

A look through the AIM suggests fairly clearly that it’s not required. If there’s nobody to notify if search and rescue action is initiated, then there’s nobody to notify. You’re still allowed to fly even if nobody on the ground likes you or cares about you.
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Re: SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

photofly wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:04 pm A look through the AIM suggests fairly clearly that it’s not required. If there’s nobody to notify if search and rescue action is initiated, then there’s nobody to notify. You’re still allowed to fly even if nobody on the ground likes you or cares about you.
Actually, a notification person is required as per the AIM if filing a Canadian flight plan (Departure and arrival within Canada or the U.S.):

3.14.2 A Canadian flight plan or flight itinerary shall contain such information as is specified in the CFS, including:
(a) aircraft identification
(b) flight rules
(c) type of flight
(d) number of aircraft (if more than one)
(e) type of aircraft
(f) wake turbulence category
(g) equipment
(h) departure aerodrome
(i) time of departure (UTC)—proposed/actual
(j) cruising speed
(k) altitude/level
(l) route
(m) destination aerodrome
(n) EET en-route
(o) SAR time*
(p) destination alternate aerodrome
(q) endurance (flight time in hours and minutes)
(r) total number of persons on board
(s) type of ELT*
(t) survival equipment (type, jackets, dinghies)
(u) aircraft colour and markings
(v) remarks (regarding other survival equipment)
(w) arrival report—where it will be filed*
(x) name and number or address of person or company to be notified if SAR action is initiated*
(y) pilot’s name
(z) pilot’s licence number (Canadian pilot licence only)*

* Not required for an ICAO flight plan

So, based on the above, unless you're filing a flight plan to an international destination other than the U.S. where an ICAO flight plan is required, it is in fact required to list a "name and number or address of person or company to be notified if SAR action is initiated" if filing a flight plan within Canada.
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Re: SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by photofly »

I don’t agree with your interpretation. If there is such a person or company, you must insert their details. I don’t see that it forbids you to fly unless you have such a person. Give the details as “none”, if you must.
I was told this is not appropriate and I should rethink the way I fly.
…and this is the obviously defective result of this incorrect interpretation of the regulation.
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Re: SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by SAR_YQQ »

If you are overdue - your SAR contact will be one of the first people contacted by Nav Canada during their comm search, If you are flying with your two friends - put down the owner of the plane you are renting, or your boss, or the guy who is looking after your dog. Someone who might know a little more about you and your habits than what we have on file (which isn’t much). If we get your file (aka you are truly missing) then the JRCC controller will also use this contact to start to build a list of people to talk to. If you have nobody listed, we have to rely on the local cops to figure out who you are.

It does not slow down SAR response - as an operator, I don’t care about your SAR contact, I care about your LKP and your detailed flight plan.
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Re: SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by Bede »

On a similar note, does anyone know how to put a non standard route in the Route section on plan.navcanada.ca? For example, I'm going YQT-YKF, I'd want my route to read "North Shore Lk Superior YAM". I get an error for the route when I submit.
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Re: SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by digits_ »

SAR_YQQ wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:56 pm If you are overdue - your SAR contact will be one of the first people contacted by Nav Canada during their comm search, If you are flying with your two friends - put down the owner of the plane you are renting, or your boss, or the guy who is looking after your dog. Someone who might know a little more about you and your habits than what we have on file (which isn’t much). If we get your file (aka you are truly missing) then the JRCC controller will also use this contact to start to build a list of people to talk to. If you have nobody listed, we have to rely on the local cops to figure out who you are.

It does not slow down SAR response - as an operator, I don’t care about your SAR contact, I care about your LKP and your detailed flight plan.
I was the owner, and it was a private flight, so no boss. Sure, there are multiple people I know who would take care of my dog, but none of those have any clue about aviation, and would have no valuable information when called. They would likely also decline to be mentioned on a flight plan, nor would I want them on there, as they have no idea what it is. Living in a remote area, it's also a bit of a burden on people to stay within cell phone reception. And if they don't, what's the point of mentioning them on the plan anyway.

Thanks for the info by the way, nice to know how it works from your point of view. If I may ask, what kind of information have you gotten from the SAR contact that was helpful in a search? I can understand how that might be helpful for local flights where one might not bother to put every sight seeing point on the flight plan, but if you fly longer distances from A to B in a somewhat straight line, then what more info could a person on the ground give you?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:27 pm I don’t agree with your interpretation. If there is such a person or company, you must insert their details. I don’t see that it forbids you to fly unless you have such a person. Give the details as “none”, if you must.
That's what ended up happening, albeit with quite some resistance from the FSS guy. Which made me believe that it was legal, as otherwise he likely wouldn't have accepted that option. Filing a flight plan without an ident or a destination for example would never get accepted. But a 'no SAR contact' did in the end get accepted.

"I'll put 'none' then, but it's really not a good idea"
- "ok"
"You should really come up with a different approach"
- "ok"
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
photofly
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Re: SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by photofly »

Having a contact there helped me out of a bad situation once - I'd filed a flight plan the night before for a trip to the US, and did the flight plan form right after the EAPIS notification. I put the local time (from the EAPIS) on the flight plan instead of Zulu time, and I gotten woken by my mother in law wanting to know who Lockheed Martin Flight Services were, and why they were bothering her from the USA in early hours of the morning, hours before I'd even planned to depart (I guess my own cellphone was turned off overnight or something). Waking her was way better than causing the launch of a cross-border SAR mission for a flight that wasn't due to depart for three hours.
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Re: SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

photofly wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:27 pm I don’t agree with your interpretation.
I don't see how these regulations can be interpreted differently. It literally says in the AIM that for a Canadian flight plan, a SAR contact is required. The asterisk saying that this information isn't required for an ICAO (international) flight plan also implies that it IS therefore required for a Canadian flight plan. Seems pretty black and white when a SAR contact is and isn't required.

If you can explain to me how you interpret the paragraph I quoted as NOT requiring a SAR contact, I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.
photofly wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:27 pm I don’t see that it forbids you to fly unless you have such a person.
Flying isn't forbidden in many cases if you don't list a SAR contact (flying circuits, staying within 25 NM of the airport, etc), but if you want to file a FLIGHT PLAN, it is required.
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Re: SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by digits_ »

DHC-1 Jockey wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:35 pm
photofly wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:27 pm I don’t agree with your interpretation.
I don't see how these regulations can be interpreted differently. It literally says in the AIM that for a Canadian flight plan, a SAR contact is required. The asterisk saying that this information isn't required for an ICAO (international) flight plan also implies that it IS therefore required for a Canadian flight plan. Seems pretty black and white when a SAR contact is and isn't required.

If you can explain to me how you interpret the paragraph I quoted as NOT requiring a SAR contact, I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.
photofly wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:27 pm I don’t see that it forbids you to fly unless you have such a person.
Flying isn't forbidden in many cases if you don't list a SAR contact (flying circuits, staying within 25 NM of the airport, etc), but if you want to file a FLIGHT PLAN, it is required.
Good points. Your list also gives the option to give an address instead of a number for a SAR contact. I guess that implies they don't expect instant 2 way communication from this particular contact.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by photofly »

DHC-1 Jockey wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:35 pm
photofly wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:27 pm I don’t agree with your interpretation.
I don't see how these regulations can be interpreted differently. It literally says in the AIM that for a Canadian flight plan, a SAR contact is required. The asterisk saying that this information isn't required for an ICAO (international) flight plan also implies that it IS therefore required for a Canadian flight plan. Seems pretty black and white when a SAR contact is and isn't required.

If you can explain to me how you interpret the paragraph I quoted as NOT requiring a SAR contact, I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.
It doesn’t literally say an SAR contact is required. It says the name of a person (etc) is required. That’s different. If there’s no person then there’s no name (etc) to give, and a name cannot be given.

You’re required to give the information honestly, but it’s not required for the information to exist in the first place.

Think of it like a form with a space to give your middle name. If you have a middle name you have to write it there. But the existence of a space on the form doesn’t require you to invent a middle name to write if you don’t have one.

This is even more obvious when you consider there is no guidance whatsoever as to who to choose as an SAR contact, or what their purpose on the flight plan form is. If your interpretation of the rule is satisfied by entering “The head keeper” and giving the number for the switchboard at Toronto Zoo I’d look at interpreting the rule differently.

You can also look at regulation 602.74 that says “A flight plan or flight itinerary shall contain such information as is specified by the Minister in the Canada Flight Supplement.”

It says “such information as” - not “all the information”, or even “the information”. The words “such as” are indicative and exemplary, not comprehensive.
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Re: SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

photofly wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:53 pm You’re required to give the information honestly, but it’s not required for the information to exist in the first place.

Think of it like a form with a space to give your middle name. If you have a middle name you have to write it there. But the existence of a space on the form doesn’t require you to invent a middle name to write if you don’t have one.
Thank you for proving my point. In your example, the OPTION to put a middle name is not required just because they made a space available on a form. That's why online forms often have an asterisk beside FIRST NAME and LAST NAME stating that they are required, but a middle name is not required. If you want to put a middle name, that's optional.

The AIM on the other hand states "shall contain such information as is specified in the CFS, including:
(x) name and number or address of person or company to be notified if SAR action is initiated"

The requirement for a name is obvious as is a phone number for notification, but if a phone number is not available, at least an address is required for authorities to attend to inform the SAR contact.
photofly wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:53 pm This is even more obvious when you consider there is no guidance whatsoever as to who to choose as an SAR contact, or what their purpose on the flight plan form is. If your interpretation of the rule is satisfied by entering “The head keeper” and giving the number for the switchboard at Toronto Zoo I’d look at interpreting the rule differently.
Now you're just being unreasonable. I'm sure the intent of the rule is to list a person who may have some information about your whereabouts, not listing some random name to satisfy "filling in the box."
photofly wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:53 pm You can also look at regulation 602.74 that says “A flight plan or flight itinerary shall contain such information as is specified by the Minister in the Canada Flight Supplement.”

It says “such information as” - not “all the information”, or even “the information”. The words “such as” are indicative and exemplary, not comprehensive.
Here is my answer to that:

From the AIM: The TC AIM provides flight crews with reference material useful for aircraft operation in Canadian airspace. It includes those sections of the CARs that are of interest to pilots. The TC AIM supplements the rules of the air and procedures for aircraft operation in Canadian airspace found in AIP Canada (ICAO) (see MAP 2.1). Throughout the TC AIM, The term “shall” implies that the applicable procedure is mandatory because it is supported by regulations.

So there you have it in black and white: The AIM says "SHALL contain the name and number or address of person or company to be notified if SAR action is initiated". This is supported by the regulations which is authorized by the minister.

It can't get any clearer than that and no "interpretation" is necessary or required. The box is there, and it SHALL be filled in.
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Re: SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by photofly »

Double post
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Last edited by photofly on Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: SAR contact required on flight plan?

Post by photofly »

For such reasons as I stated, I don’t agree.
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