Flight Instructor Rating Costs, Pros and Cons

[CaptainKirk]

Hi friends, in this video I talk about the Cost to get your Class 4 flight instructor rating in Canada.

This rating is labelled different in to USA where they call the rating a CFI (flight instructor) and CFII (flight instructor instrument).

In Canada, the rating in order is a Class 4 (entry level), Class 3 (have 3 first solo students), Class 2, and Class 1 (able to teach other instructors).

[YouTube] https://youtu.be/DRFiE_NAR48[/YouTube]

[the-minister31]

Nice accurate info on the rating, but I don't get it, you say you can't be a career flight instructor and that after 1500 hrs you should move to the regionals.

But someone has to teach new instructors, someone has to be the chief flight instructor. A lot of people like the lifestyle of a flight instructor and the standard pay for a class 1 is really decent. In fact, a class 1/2 is way more in demand than airline pilots, even before COVID. Also a few retired airline pilots are teaching for fun and can climb up the ranks fairly easily.

As Obi-Wan said, only a sith deals in absolutes!

[CaptainKirk]

Flight instructing in Cessna is an entry level job unless you own the flight school. Most people in any industry don’t stay in an entry position. They naturally want better opportunities. And no there is nothing decent about making 30k-40k/year.

[the-minister31]

Flight instructing in Cessna is an entry level job unless you own the flight school. Most people in any industry don’t stay in an entry position. They naturally want better opportunities. And no there is nothing decent about making 30k-40k/year.

Who said a class 1 earns 40k? Who said you have to teach in a cessna, or even a single for that matter? I understand your videos are about sharing your experience, but your experience may definitely vary from others. For my part, I made quite a decent salary (more than you describe) as a class 3 instructor and I enjoyed everyday of it and could definitely see someone sticking there for their whole career as a class 1.

Class 4/3 is an entry level job. Usually when you get to class 2/1 and/or become chief flight instructor, you can definitely make a living out of it.

And don't get me wrong, for the most part you are right. CPL, FI, 750 hrs or so with some twin you progress to FO 703/704 than at 1500 hrs you jump to 705 is probably the most common career progression in Canada. But to whoever is reading this, if you love teaching and want to make a career out of it, go for it! Same for someone who wants to fly floats for a career.

[Conflicting Traffic]

Flight instructing in Cessna is an entry level job unless you own the flight school. Most people in any industry don’t stay in an entry position.

Being an entry level instructor is an entry level position. Being a professional instructor is potentially a career role.

They naturally want better opportunities.

How do you define "better"? "Here's more money, but you can forget about having a life." is not objectively better.

And no there is nothing decent about making 30k-40k/year.

I thought you said instructing was an entry level job? Making $30-40k.yr might suck, but in an entry level position, it's not terrible. Right seat regional airline pilots don't make much more than that. Further to that, any instructor who is making $40k or less isn't working very hard. A full time instructor should be able to bill at least 1500 hours a year (maybe not during COVID, I don't know about that, but in normal times). Is there anyone paying Class IV's less than $30/hr? I don't know the answer to that either, but if they're out there, I would recommend not working for them. So the lowest paid instructor on the payscale should have no problem making at least $45k/yr. Nobody's going to get rich making that, but for an apprentice role with room to grow, it's not a bad start.

The question is what happens to your compensation as you progress. The vast majority of instructors can't answer that question because by the time they have enough experience to be of any real value, they've moved on to something else.

In the last line-instructor role I held (no supervisory duties), I made $80k/yr plus a good benefits package. I was home every night and didn't work weekends. Now I'm building a freelance business, and while it takes some effort to do the marketing, I'm on track to build it to a $120-140k/yr income after all the COVID mess settles down. I guess I could just stay where I am as a regional captain and let the job consume my entire life while I make $110-130k/yr, but that really doesn't seem like a good trade to me (and I'm certainly not the only one).

But you keep on spreading the myth that instructors can't make money. That way, fewer people will do it, and I'll be in higher demand:).

[the-minister31]

Flight instructing in Cessna is an entry level job unless you own the flight school. Most people in any industry don’t stay in an entry position.

Being an entry level instructor is an entry level position. Being a professional instructor is potentially a career role.

They naturally want better opportunities.

How do you define "better"? "Here's more money, but you can forget about having a life." is not objectively better.

And no there is nothing decent about making 30k-40k/year.

I thought you said instructing was an entry level job? Making $30-40k.yr might suck, but in an entry level position, it's not terrible. Right seat regional airline pilots don't make much more than that. Further to that, any instructor who is making $40k or less isn't working very hard. A full time instructor should be able to bill at least 1500 hours a year (maybe not during COVID, I don't know about that, but in normal times). Is there anyone paying Class IV's less than $30/hr? I don't know the answer to that either, but if they're out there, I would recommend not working for them. So the lowest paid instructor on the payscale should have no problem making at least $45k/yr. Nobody's going to get rich making that, but for an apprentice role with room to grow, it's not a bad start.

The question is what happens to your compensation as you progress. The vast majority of instructors can't answer that question because by the time they have enough experience to be of any real value, they've moved on to something else.

In the last line-instructor role I held (no supervisory duties), I made $80k/yr plus a good benefits package. I was home every night and didn't work weekends. Now I'm building a freelance business, and while it takes some effort to do the marketing, I'm on track to build it to a $120-140k/yr income after all the COVID mess settles down. I guess I could just stay where I am as a regional captain and let the job consume my entire life while I make $110-130k/yr, but that really doesn't seem like a good trade to me (and I'm certainly not the only one).

But you keep on spreading the myth that instructors can't make money. That way, fewer people will do it, and I'll be in higher demand:).

Couldn't have said it better myself, except that most flight school (in Quebec at least) pay around 25$/h for a class 3/4. So 35-40k/y seems about right. But most 702/703 pay around 30-35k/y for a first year FO!

[airway]

A full time instructor should be able to bill at least 1500 hours a year (maybe not during COVID, I don't know about that, but in normal times).

In the last line-instructor role I held (no supervisory duties), I made $80k/yr plus a good benefits package. I was home every night and didn't work weekends. Now I'm building a freelance business, and while it takes some effort to do the marketing, I'm on track to build it to a $120-140k/yr income after all the COVID mess settles down. I guess I could just stay where I am as a regional captain and let the job consume my entire life while I make $110-130k/yr, but that really doesn't seem like a good trade to me (and I'm certainly not the only one).

But you keep on spreading the myth that instructors can't make money. That way, fewer people will do it, and I'll be in higher demand:).

​I don't know how much your hourly rate is but most schools in Canada charge about $70/hour for an instructor.

1500 hours/year X $70/hour = $105,000 minus overhead

$130,000/year as a regional Capt. with pension, benefits, 6 weeks paid vacation, 15-18 days/month working (not sure how that consumes your entire life), not thinking about your job on your time off, seems like a good trade to me.

[the-minister31]

A full time instructor should be able to bill at least 1500 hours a year (maybe not during COVID, I don't know about that, but in normal times).

In the last line-instructor role I held (no supervisory duties), I made $80k/yr plus a good benefits package. I was home every night and didn't work weekends. Now I'm building a freelance business, and while it takes some effort to do the marketing, I'm on track to build it to a $120-140k/yr income after all the COVID mess settles down. I guess I could just stay where I am as a regional captain and let the job consume my entire life while I make $110-130k/yr, but that really doesn't seem like a good trade to me (and I'm certainly not the only one).

But you keep on spreading the myth that instructors can't make money. That way, fewer people will do it, and I'll be in higher demand:).

​I don't know how much your hourly rate is but most schools in Canada charge about $70/hour for an instructor.

1500 hours/year X $70/hour = $105,000 minus overhead

$130,000/year as a regional Capt. with pension, benefits, 6 weeks paid vacation, 15-18 days/month working (not sure how that consumes your entire life), not thinking about your job on your time off, seems like a good trade to me.

You forget that the 70$/h goes to the flight school, not the instructor.

A class 4/3 makes around 25$ an hour. Class 2/1 makes around 35$/h.

[airway]

A full time instructor should be able to bill at least 1500 hours a year (maybe not during COVID, I don't know about that, but in normal times).

In the last line-instructor role I held (no supervisory duties), I made $80k/yr plus a good benefits package. I was home every night and didn't work weekends. Now I'm building a freelance business, and while it takes some effort to do the marketing, I'm on track to build it to a $120-140k/yr income after all the COVID mess settles down. I guess I could just stay where I am as a regional captain and let the job consume my entire life while I make $110-130k/yr, but that really doesn't seem like a good trade to me (and I'm certainly not the only one).

But you keep on spreading the myth that instructors can't make money. That way, fewer people will do it, and I'll be in higher demand:).

​I don't know how much your hourly rate is but most schools in Canada charge about $70/hour for an instructor.

1500 hours/year X $70/hour = $105,000 minus overhead

$130,000/year as a regional Capt. with pension, benefits, 6 weeks paid vacation, 15-18 days/month working (not sure how that consumes your entire life), not thinking about your job on your time off, seems like a good trade to me.

You forget that the 70$/h goes to the flight school, not the instructor.

A class 4/3 makes around 25$ an hour. Class 2/1 makes around 35$/h.

I was talking about a freelancer working full time.

[Conflicting Traffic]

Couldn't have said it better myself, except that most flight school (in Quebec at least) pay around 25$/h for a class 3/4. So 35-40k/y seems about right. But most 702/703 pay around 30-35k/y for a first year FO!

I really hope those pay rates are a COVID anomaly. Of course, the whole "I gotta get my hours so I can get a 'real' job" attitude does a lot to depress wages. In 2008 as an hourly-rate Class 1 I was getting $40/hr, and I considered that the very bottom of the acceptable range then. In 1995 as an hourly-rate 250-hour-wonder Class IV, I was getting $15/hr, which I think was pretty reasonable. If you adjust that for inflation, even at a lowball 3% rate, that should be over $32/hr in today's dollars.

[Conflicting Traffic]

​I don't know how much your hourly rate is but most schools in Canada charge about $70/hour for an instructor.

1500 hours/year X $70/hour = $105,000 minus overhead

My rate right now is $70/hr plus a group instruction surcharge. That puts me at the low end of freelancers, which I find acceptable because I'm new to the freelancing world and I expect to be able to increase the rate in the not-too-distant future. In practice, overhead costs are unimportant. This is because freelance income is taxed differently than employee income. Among other differences, overhead costs are tax-deductible. If you make an apples-to-apples comparison between a freelancer and an employee at the same pay rate, the freelancer will usually be better off -- even accounting for the value of the benefits package the employee may have.

Most freelancers figure out a way to generate additional income -- being a freelancer is inherently entrepreneurial. I have two additional income streams, one is significant but cuts into my ability to bill as an instructor (it's still in the flight training industry), the other not so significant, but that doesn't interfere with my ability to bill. As I said, I'm on track to build a business that generates an income in the 120-140k range. If I'm lucky, there's potential to do quite a bit better than that, but that depends significantly on luck.

Freelancing aside, it's absolutely possible to make a six-figure income as an instructor at an FTU. Adjusted for inflation, I've done it. And there are plenty of others who have as well.

​$130,000/year as a regional Capt. with pension, benefits, 6 weeks paid vacation, 15-18 days/month working (not sure how that consumes your entire life)

Regional captains don't work 15-18 days a month. They work 18 days a month. Which is exactly how much full time office drones work. Except the office drones sleep in their own bed at night and don't work weekends or Christmas. Now I confess that I'm a commuter, and that plays a significant role in my assessment of the airline quality of life. But about half of airline pilots are commuters, so my experience is not unusual. Non-commuters can take advantage of single-day pairings and reserve to get time at home. But those pilots aren't making $130k.

​not thinking about your job on your time off

When I'm working as an employee at a flight school, I'm not thinking about my job on my time off. Do people do that?

​seems like a good trade to me.

Then you should continue. I didn't say that the airline choice is bad. I said that it isn't objectively good. And I stand by that. Every choice is a tradeoff. Whether the tradeoff is good or bad depends largely on personal preferences and circumstances. If your personal preferences and circumstances mean that the airline choice is a good choice, then you should pursue that career.

The OP's position is that instructing is not a "real" job (only implied in this thread, but stated verbatim in another thread), and that you should only instruct to timebuild and move on. The get-your-hours-and-move-on attitude is poison to this entire industry -- not just to the training side of things. Anyone who's trying to build a social media brand on the philosophy of "airline pilots are real pilots and everyone else is a timebuilder wannabe" should be called out as the hack that they are.

His position is that you can't make money as an instructor, which is demonstrably false, and that you can't have a career as an instructor, which is also demonstrably false. Further, he's pushing his audience (what little of it there is) to instruct for hours with no consideration given to the quality of instruction provided -- which is heavily influenced by ones desire to actually teach. As I've noted, this approach is poison to this industry.

[Bede]

Conflicting Traffic,
Good job.

I think you’re under charging though. What other profession, trade, etc works for $70? Not mechanics, not barbers, not plumbers. I think you’ll find that the price demand curve maybe be backwards. You charge more you’ll get more business. People with their own planes have money. They want the best instructor money can buy.

[Conflicting Traffic]

I think you’re under charging though. What other profession, trade, etc works for $70? Not mechanics, not barbers, not plumbers.

You're right. But my take is that 1) I'm an unknown quantity to the local GA community, 2) I'm new to freelancing, and 3) I'm (temporarily) doing this part-time, which means my students have to tolerate scheduling difficulties for now. So, while I get that $70 is low, it's not you-must-be-outa-your-mind low. Once I've built a local client base and reputation, I can start increasing it to something more reasonable/sustainable.

I think you’ll find that the price demand curve maybe be backwards. You charge more you’ll get more business. People with their own planes have money. They want the best instructor money can buy.

This is an excellent point. And while I've given it some consideration, I'm a little gun-shy about pricing myself out of the market before I even get started. This is probably just my lack of (freelancing) experience speaking.

[photofly]

I think you’re under charging though. What other profession, trade, etc works for $70? Not mechanics, not barbers, not plumbers.

If the average plumber took 72 hours to fix your sink you’d play them a lot less than $70 per hour.

People with their own planes have money. They want the best instructor money can buy.

Charging a lot doesn’t make you the best instructor money can buy. It makes you the most expensive instructor money can buy.

[Aviatard]

People with their own planes have money. They want the best instructor money can buy.

You’d think so but that has not been my experience. Rather, people want Walmart flight training, as cheap as possible. I’ve had a guy with a brand new 182 try to knock my rates down because they were within $5 per hour of a local FTU.

[rookiepilot]

I think you’re under charging though. What other profession, trade, etc works for $70? Not mechanics, not barbers, not plumbers.

You're right. But my take is that 1) I'm an unknown quantity to the local GA community, 2) I'm new to freelancing, and 3) I'm (temporarily) doing this part-time, which means my students have to tolerate scheduling difficulties for now. So, while I get that $70 is low, it's not you-must-be-outa-your-mind low. Once I've built a local client base and reputation, I can start increasing it to something more reasonable/sustainable.

I think you’ll find that the price demand curve maybe be backwards. You charge more you’ll get more business. People with their own planes have money. They want the best instructor money can buy.

This is an excellent point. And while I've given it some consideration, I'm a little gun-shy about pricing myself out of the market before I even get started. This is probably just my lack of (freelancing) experience speaking.

Conflicting in my OP you're doing it exactly right. Build the business, reputation, then raise rates. Kudos.

I for one will happily pay good bucks for good instruction, but I want, and got for my IFR/CPL, someone with line experience. That’s real value brought to the table.

It’s absolutely nuts to me that instructors who’ve never seen the inside of a cloud can teach IFR, and really stupid for a private owner - pilot to accept such instruction, without an extensive mentoring plan afterwards. (Which I also was fortunate to receive from another pilot)

[Bede]

If the average plumber took 72 hours to fix your sink you’d play them a lot less than $70 per hour.

It takes them that long to plumb a house and install the boiler and the infloor heating.

Charging a lot doesn’t make you the best instructor money can buy. It makes you the most expensive instructor money can buy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

[digits_]

People with their own planes have money. They want the best instructor money can buy.

You’d think so but that has not been my experience. Rather, people want Walmart flight training, as cheap as possible. I’ve had a guy with a brand new 182 try to knock my rates down because they were within $5 per hour of a local FTU.

From my limited samples I would say that people who need instructing due to 3rd party requirements (insurance, currency) often want it as cheap as possible. People learning a new skill (eg tail wheel flying, ifr, floats) are a bit more open to paying more for quality.

But I am sure that also varies wildly depending on the individual.

[airway]

​I don't know how much your hourly rate is but most schools in Canada charge about $70/hour for an instructor.

1500 hours/year X $70/hour = $105,000 minus overhead

My rate right now is $70/hr plus a group instruction surcharge. That puts me at the low end of freelancers, which I find acceptable because I'm new to the freelancing world and I expect to be able to increase the rate in the not-too-distant future. In practice, overhead costs are unimportant. This is because freelance income is taxed differently than employee income. Among other differences, overhead costs are tax-deductible. If you make an apples-to-apples comparison between a freelancer and an employee at the same pay rate, the freelancer will usually be better off -- even accounting for the value of the benefits package the employee may have.

Most freelancers figure out a way to generate additional income -- being a freelancer is inherently entrepreneurial. I have two additional income streams, one is significant but cuts into my ability to bill as an instructor (it's still in the flight training industry), the other not so significant, but that doesn't interfere with my ability to bill. As I said, I'm on track to build a business that generates an income in the 120-140k range. If I'm lucky, there's potential to do quite a bit better than that, but that depends significantly on luck.

Freelancing aside, it's absolutely possible to make a six-figure income as an instructor at an FTU. Adjusted for inflation, I've done it. And there are plenty of others who have as well.

​$130,000/year as a regional Capt. with pension, benefits, 6 weeks paid vacation, 15-18 days/month working (not sure how that consumes your entire life)

Regional captains don't work 15-18 days a month. They work 18 days a month. Which is exactly how much full time office drones work. Except the office drones sleep in their own bed at night and don't work weekends or Christmas. Now I confess that I'm a commuter, and that plays a significant role in my assessment of the airline quality of life. But about half of airline pilots are commuters, so my experience is not unusual. Non-commuters can take advantage of single-day pairings and reserve to get time at home. But those pilots aren't making $130k.

​not thinking about your job on your time off

When I'm working as an employee at a flight school, I'm not thinking about my job on my time off. Do people do that?

​seems like a good trade to me.

Then you should continue. I didn't say that the airline choice is bad. I said that it isn't objectively good. And I stand by that. Every choice is a tradeoff. Whether the tradeoff is good or bad depends largely on personal preferences and circumstances. If your personal preferences and circumstances mean that the airline choice is a good choice, then you should pursue that career.

The OP's position is that instructing is not a "real" job (only implied in this thread, but stated verbatim in another thread), and that you should only instruct to timebuild and move on. The get-your-hours-and-move-on attitude is poison to this entire industry -- not just to the training side of things. Anyone who's trying to build a social media brand on the philosophy of "airline pilots are real pilots and everyone else is a timebuilder wannabe" should be called out as the hack that they are.

His position is that you can't make money as an instructor, which is demonstrably false, and that you can't have a career as an instructor, which is also demonstrably false. Further, he's pushing his audience (what little of it there is) to instruct for hours with no consideration given to the quality of instruction provided -- which is heavily influenced by ones desire to actually teach. As I've noted, this approach is poison to this industry.

Ok, fair enough. We obviously have different things that are important to us regarding our employment. Still, there are a couple of things that I want to say.

In 2019, regular, full flying block holding, Jazz captains worked between 13-19 days per month. It depends if the equipment/base you are on has high credit pairings, and if you are senior enough to hold them. Hopefully we will be back to that in the next couple of years.

I suppose the percentage of commuters depends on which company you are at, but I would say the average is more like 25% or less.


.

[photofly]

If the average plumber took 72 hours to fix your sink you’d play them a lot less than $70 per hour.

It takes them that long to plumb a house and install the boiler and the infloor heating.

Charging a lot doesn’t make you the best instructor money can buy. It makes you the most expensive instructor money can buy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

There are already flight instructors you can get for $70 per hour (from an FTU) which anchors the price as does the fact that everyone knows the instructor is clearly willing to work for his or her share which is one third of that or less. And making yourself expensive doesn’t turn you into a Veblen good. That takes both a lot of marketing and a superior level of quality to begin with.

[CaptainKirk]

Actually, I have to clarify that being a Flight Instructor was one of the most rewarding aspects of my career. I've personally sent dozens of students solo. And sent many more for a successful flight test. Unfortunately I couldn't afford to be one for very long and left as a class 2.

Captain Kirk

[YouTube] https://youtu.be/DRFiE_NAR48 [/YouTube]

[the-minister31]

Actually, I have to clarify that being a Flight Instructor was one of the most rewarding aspects of my career. I've personally sent dozens of students solo. And sent many more for a successful flight test. Unfortunately I couldn't afford to be one for very long and left as a class 2.

You made more money as an FO up north than as a class 2 FI? If that is the case, I am sorry you had that experience, but it is not the norm.

If someone's end goal is the airlines, you actually have some very valid points regarding experience and low-time instructor wages. If someone's end goal is teaching, I wouldn't discourage it at all solely based on what you experienced. As you say, it is a very rewarding career and you can easily make more than 50-60k/year as a class 2-1 FI.