Hmmmmmm

[PitchLink]

I sure pissed off my 737 captain friend back in the early 80’s when I made the same money as him- didn’t get ahead of me until he stepped up to the 767 ; his income doubled mine when he went to the 747-400.
I am happy sleeping in my own bed every night & many want to talk to me about owning my own Cessna 185 at 23,which I still own 38 years later.

Daryl

That’s definitely important. I worked on the road for years but I made sure I was paid for it. This $20/hr business is laughable in 2021. Any employer offering that is part of the problem with this industry. Doesn’t matter if it’s $2/hr someone will do it, and they f’n well know it. It sets the bar that much higher for anyone wanting to do this for an honest living. This industry is its own worst enemy.

[PitchLink]

They could offer 2$ per hour and get plenty of resumes.

You’re right too , and there are people in this forum that will defend this logic too.

[dhc#]

Appears to be a shift in the type of flying at Voyageur these days (at least on the turboprop side), heard they currently only have 1 overseas contract for the Dash 8s (from 4 in the recent past), but they are getting more into domestic freight work with their recent Purolator deal to operate 2 Dashes (second life for those ex-Jazz machines). Working the UN contracts overseas was the lifestyle/schedule and financial draw to being at Voyageur ...night freight for less money, not so much.

[PitchLink]

I’ll just leave this here lol

[ayseven]

Want the type rating and the experience? Want to go to Air Canada? Then fucking do it and smile the whole time. Don't "want to"? Someone else gets your seat at Jazz etc etc
It is a sorry state of affairs but that is the industry. Low margins, lots of staff available. What do people want? Respect? Good pay on your way to the top? Ain't gonna happen.

[PitchLink]

Want the type rating and the experience? Want to go to Air Canada? Then fucking do it and smile the whole time. Don't "want to"? Someone else gets your seat at Jazz etc etc
It is a sorry state of affairs but that is the industry. Low margins, lots of staff available. What do people want? Respect? Good pay on your way to the top? Ain't gonna happen.

Sore knees and soft lips approach eh? Ya no thanks. Another validation of how f’d the industry is.

[imjustlurking]

I’ll just leave this here lol

That's 21 Freedom Dollars... equivalent to 26 loons.

[scdriver]

Want the type rating and the experience? Want to go to Air Canada? Then fucking do it and smile the whole time. Don't "want to"? Someone else gets your seat at Jazz etc etc
It is a sorry state of affairs but that is the industry. Low margins, lots of staff available. What do people want? Respect? Good pay on your way to the top? Ain't gonna happen.

As true as all of that is given the f'ed state of the industry, nothing will change until people don't take this shit. I hope they just hear crickets

[ayseven]

Too many pilots. Not enough good paying jobs. I don't think people should have to put up with it either, but it is still dog eat dog, and if there is one person more ambitious than you, your career is stuffed and he goes to Air Canada.

And another thing... Is this job in North Bay or some other metropolis and not Armstrong ON or Pickle Lake etc? If so, bonus. There is so much worse out there, and I don't want to slight the hunting and fishing crowd but those places are not life but jail to me.

[Ash Ketchum]

Too many pilots. Not enough good paying jobs. I don't think people should have to put up with it either, but it is still dog eat dog, and if there is one person more ambitious than you, your career is stuffed and he goes to Air Canada.

And another thing... Is this job in North Bay or some other metropolis and not Armstrong ON or Pickle Lake etc? If so, bonus. There is so much worse out there, and I don't want to slight the hunting and fishing crowd but those places are not life but jail to me.

Very true. It's a passion driven industry not unlike acting or becoming a pro athlete so supply will always exceed demand and wages will remain low for the majority.

[PitchLink]

Want the type rating and the experience? Want to go to Air Canada? Then fucking do it and smile the whole time. Don't "want to"? Someone else gets your seat at Jazz etc etc
It is a sorry state of affairs but that is the industry. Low margins, lots of staff available. What do people want? Respect? Good pay on your way to the top? Ain't gonna happen.

As true as all of that is given the f'ed state of the industry, nothing will change until people don't take this shit. I hope they just hear crickets

There will always be that one idiot that will bend over and take it. There needs to be regulation on all rates in this industry, this is insanity what’s happening these days.

[PitchLink]

Too many pilots. Not enough good paying jobs. I don't think people should have to put up with it either, but it is still dog eat dog, and if there is one person more ambitious than you, your career is stuffed and he goes to Air Canada.

And another thing... Is this job in North Bay or some other metropolis and not Armstrong ON or Pickle Lake etc? If so, bonus. There is so much worse out there, and I don't want to slight the hunting and fishing crowd but those places are not life but jail to me.

Very true. It's a passion driven industry not unlike acting or becoming a pro athlete so supply will always exceed demand and wages will remain low for the majority.

That’s exactly why this “pilot shortage” issue pre and post pandemic is such a farce, there’s never been a shortage and never will be.

[ayseven]

The career is a tough one and anybody who says it was easy on the way up is not telling you the truth. Personally I quit to pursue more money and stability and now it is too late. I have no regrets and neither should the kid who sucks it up and gets on with it.

[PitchLink]

The career is a tough one and anybody who says it was easy on the way up is not telling you the truth. Personally I quit to pursue more money and stability and now it is too late. I have no regrets and neither should the kid who sucks it up and gets on with it.

“Sucks it up” about sums it up. And that kid like most will regret it

[goldeneagle]

There needs to be regulation on all rates in this industry, this is insanity what’s happening these days.

There are regulations, they are called employment standards and apply across the board, to everybody in all industries. Some industries are subject to the federal standards, others to provincial, which can vary somewhat from province to province.

I'm curious, are you suggesting that this industry is somehow special, and should get preferential treatment over all others for some reason ? I'd be real curious to know what the reason is. What makes these folks so special that they need rules over and above what applies to the rest of the population ?

[PitchLink]

There needs to be regulation on all rates in this industry, this is insanity what’s happening these days.

There are regulations, they are called employment standards and apply across the board, to everybody in all industries. Some industries are subject to the federal standards, others to provincial, which can vary somewhat from province to province.

I'm curious, are you suggesting that this industry is somehow special, and should get preferential treatment over all others for some reason ? I'd be real curious to know what the reason is. What makes these folks so special that they need rules over and above what applies to the rest of the population ?

Well if you read earlier in the thread, provincially regulated trades have wage protection unlike this industry. A couple bucks more than minimum wage is grossly low, and the fact that someone would defend that metric is concerning. I’m
Well aware of labour law, there is no special treatment being suggested in anything posted. The fact is simple, supply and demand, and right now it’s an employers market as usual. You won’t see any other profession starting wage that low with comparable training. It’ll hit closer to minimum wage I’m sure as this market continues. It’s legal, but it’s not ethical, that’s what I think, and I’m sure I’m not alone.

[ayseven]

More than unethical, it is immoral. But that is this industry and at least people are openly talking about it.

[PitchLink]

More than unethical, it is immoral. But that is this industry and at least people are openly talking about it.

As they should. And yes I agree, it’s abhorrent.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

What do you expect, it's an entry level job.

You paid for your CPL and now you need a job to gain experience. How much should we pay a zero timer with no skills?

It's like this everywhere now with most industries, everyone wants top dollar for nothing, entitled whiners. That's not how the world actually works, you need to earn a living, get experience and prove yourself valuable.

So obtaining a CPL is zero time and zero skill? I think TC and several others with the aforementioned license and training would disagree with you. I don’t think anyone speaking out against these obviously low (bordering on insulting) wages are wanting “top dollar” as you put it, I think they’re concerned with how wages in Canada are not only stagnating, but retracting as time goes on (I can confirm that fact with my time and experience in Canada).
Yes people need to slug it out in any profession and “prove yourself valuable”, that’s life, but as others have pointed out, the starting wages are “grossly low”, I don’t remember flying a comparable position for that rate 20 plus years ago…

[Bug_Stomper_01]

What do you expect, it's an entry level job.

You paid for your CPL and now you need a job to gain experience. How much should we pay a zero timer with no skills?

This.

I don’t get why this is so hard for anyone to understand. Having a freshly minted pilots license doesn’t make one a pilot, just places one in a (disgusting) larvae like state between a student and a fully productive individual, much like new MBA’s.

New mba’s make a hare more than $20/hr in a non safety sensitive environment

Quite a bit more actually, and good point!

[Bug_Stomper_01]

[/quote]

As always, there's plenty of other work out there if you don't like it. Heck, live on the dole the rest of your life, that's a real moneymaker

[/quote]

The old it’s better than welfare argument, I love that argument, really looks good on Canada's industry, real feather in the cap I must say. I wonder if any other trade makes that assertion, wait I’ll check…. NOPE! But, YOU GET TO FLY!!!

[FlightInstructionGTA]

As always, there's plenty of other work out there if you don't like it. Heck, live on the dole the rest of your life, that's a real moneymaker

At least we can see than the majority of pilots agree that wages in Canada are low. And for the one who are saying that we are a bunch of whiners. It is partly because of this kind of mentality that wages are not increasing because you are devaluating our work.

You say it is easy. I dont know where you worked. But the job I have done in aviation were not "easy" I did some not related aviation job way easier than Piloting an Aircraft. Or maybe you did not work up north. Where you re on call and it is - 40 or less. I am not saying I did not like it. I am saying it is not "easy" as you said.

I know a bunch of people who are not in the aviation field and who will never do that for anything in the world.

Also the level of responsability as a Captain is far more than an heavy machinerie enginneer.

To come back on devaluating our profession. A good example is the ex VP of Air Canada who is now at Air France. As he was a VP at Air Canada he created Air Canada Rouge. Lower the FA wages. As the Airline industry hit profit records. We kept the 4 years flat pay at AC, Give some shitty contract to Sky Reg and jazz etc. As they were recording profit record!!
When he came to Air France, Pilots, FA and AME had demands to improve their working conditions. If he was not able to meet them, they were all going on strike. Ben Smith did his maths and saw the company would lose more money if they go on strike than accepting their demand. So He decided to accept them all. To avoid a strike.
He clearly state that Pilot were very respected and he recognized their skills as technical Personnal Inflight. I m not sure he ever say that about Air Canada pilots...

2 Differents company, Same leader but different unions and Coworkers who sticked together to get what they wanted because they value their work.

When you think your job does not worth that much. The Management takes a good note on this. Even as A FO when you start your carreer.
If you begin at 20$/an hour as a green FO it is stilll way too low because when you will be on your years 4th you will not be a young FO anymore. You would be a legitimate senior FO ready to go left seat but the wages would still be way too low because you started super low.
you would get paid 35 - 40$/ hour for a 4 years Dash 8 FO. It is very low. So this wages, even as a starter is way too low because their is no increases with experiences.

As an industry we need to stick together and not have this poor mentality. We need to value our work as a pilot, as a flight instructor, as FA and AME.
Saying that in the old days you had to pay for your own ppc and paid a shitty wages for years so we should stopped whinning and suck it up is not an argument. And I Have 2 questions for you. Did you enjoy your past situation? did you enjoy paying for your ppc and earning a low wages? And because you suffer from it, Why would other would have to suffer from the same things?
Your logic is completly flawed and is not making us progress on better conditions.

Fly safe! Cheers

[PitchLink]

As always, there's plenty of other work out there if you don't like it. Heck, live on the dole the rest of your life, that's a real moneymaker

At least we can see than the majority of pilots agree that wages in Canada are low. And for the one who are saying that we are a bunch of whiners. It is partly because of this kind of mentality that wages are not increasing because you are devaluating our work.

You say it is easy. I dont know where you worked. But the job I have done in aviation were not "easy" I did some not related aviation job way easier than Piloting an Aircraft. Or maybe you did not work up north. Where you re on call and it is - 40 or less. I am not saying I did not like it. I am saying it is not "easy" as you said.

I know a bunch of people who are not in the aviation field and who will never do that for anything in the world.

Also the level of responsability as a Captain is far more than an heavy machinerie enginneer.

To come back on devaluating our profession. A good example is the ex VP of Air Canada who is now at Air France. As he was a VP at Air Canada he created Air Canada Rouge. Lower the FA wages. As the Airline industry hit profit records. We kept the 4 years flat pay at AC, Give some shitty contract to Sky Reg and jazz etc. As they were recording profit record!!
When he came to Air France, Pilots, FA and AME had demands to improve their working conditions. If he was not able to meet them, they were all going on strike. Ben Smith did his maths and saw the company would lose more money if they go on strike than accepting their demand. So He decided to accept them all. To avoid a strike.
He clearly state that Pilot were very respected and he recognized their skills as technical Personnal Inflight. I m not sure he ever say that about Air Canada pilots...

2 Differents company, Same leader but different unions and Coworkers who sticked together to get what they wanted because they value their work.

When you think your job does not worth that much. The Management takes a good note on this. Even as A FO when you start your carreer.
If you begin at 20$/an hour as a green FO it is stilll way too low because when you will be on your years 4th you will not be a young FO anymore. You would be a legitimate senior FO ready to go left seat but the wages would still be way too low because you started super low.
you would get paid 35 - 40$/ hour for a 4 years Dash 8 FO. It is very low. So this wages, even as a starter is way too low because their is no increases with experiences.

As an industry we need to stick together and not have this poor mentality. We need to value our work as a pilot, as a flight instructor, as FA and AME.
Saying that in the old days you had to pay for your own ppc and paid a shitty wages for years so we should stopped whinning and suck it up is not an argument. And I Have 2 questions for you. Did you enjoy your past situation? did you enjoy paying for your ppc and earning a low wages? And because you suffer from it, Why would other would have to suffer from the same things?
Your logic is completly flawed and is not making us progress on better conditions.

Fly safe! Cheers

I think the person that said “what do you expect it’s an entry level job” is probably an AME. Probably a partner or part owner for some flight school / operator in western Canada. This person’s “logic” isn’t flawed, it’s diseased like the rest of the older aerosexuals in Canada keeping things as crap as they are and making things exponentially worse every day they’re still involved.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

As always, there's plenty of other work out there if you don't like it. Heck, live on the dole the rest of your life, that's a real moneymaker

At least we can see than the majority of pilots agree that wages in Canada are low. And for the one who are saying that we are a bunch of whiners. It is partly because of this kind of mentality that wages are not increasing because you are devaluating our work.

You say it is easy. I dont know where you worked. But the job I have done in aviation were not "easy" I did some not related aviation job way easier than Piloting an Aircraft. Or maybe you did not work up north. Where you re on call and it is - 40 or less. I am not saying I did not like it. I am saying it is not "easy" as you said.

I know a bunch of people who are not in the aviation field and who will never do that for anything in the world.

Also the level of responsability as a Captain is far more than an heavy machinerie enginneer.

To come back on devaluating our profession. A good example is the ex VP of Air Canada who is now at Air France. As he was a VP at Air Canada he created Air Canada Rouge. Lower the FA wages. As the Airline industry hit profit records. We kept the 4 years flat pay at AC, Give some shitty contract to Sky Reg and jazz etc. As they were recording profit record!!
When he came to Air France, Pilots, FA and AME had demands to improve their working conditions. If he was not able to meet them, they were all going on strike. Ben Smith did his maths and saw the company would lose more money if they go on strike than accepting their demand. So He decided to accept them all. To avoid a strike.
He clearly state that Pilot were very respected and he recognized their skills as technical Personnal Inflight. I m not sure he ever say that about Air Canada pilots...

2 Differents company, Same leader but different unions and Coworkers who sticked together to get what they wanted because they value their work.

When you think your job does not worth that much. The Management takes a good note on this. Even as A FO when you start your carreer.
If you begin at 20$/an hour as a green FO it is stilll way too low because when you will be on your years 4th you will not be a young FO anymore. You would be a legitimate senior FO ready to go left seat but the wages would still be way too low because you started super low.
you would get paid 35 - 40$/ hour for a 4 years Dash 8 FO. It is very low. So this wages, even as a starter is way too low because their is no increases with experiences.

As an industry we need to stick together and not have this poor mentality. We need to value our work as a pilot, as a flight instructor, as FA and AME.
Saying that in the old days you had to pay for your own ppc and paid a shitty wages for years so we should stopped whinning and suck it up is not an argument. And I Have 2 questions for you. Did you enjoy your past situation? did you enjoy paying for your ppc and earning a low wages? And because you suffer from it, Why would other would have to suffer from the same things?
Your logic is completly flawed and is not making us progress on better conditions.

Fly safe! Cheers

I think the person that said “what do you expect it’s an entry level job” is probably an AME. Probably a partner or part owner for some flight school / operator in western Canada. This person’s “logic” isn’t flawed, it’s diseased like the rest of the older aerosexuals in Canada keeping things as crap as they are and making things exponentially worse every day they’re still involved.

Oh come on things aren’t that bad

[PitchLink]

As always, there's plenty of other work out there if you don't like it. Heck, live on the dole the rest of your life, that's a real moneymaker

At least we can see than the majority of pilots agree that wages in Canada are low. And for the one who are saying that we are a bunch of whiners. It is partly because of this kind of mentality that wages are not increasing because you are devaluating our work.

You say it is easy. I dont know where you worked. But the job I have done in aviation were not "easy" I did some not related aviation job way easier than Piloting an Aircraft. Or maybe you did not work up north. Where you re on call and it is - 40 or less. I am not saying I did not like it. I am saying it is not "easy" as you said.

I know a bunch of people who are not in the aviation field and who will never do that for anything in the world.

Also the level of responsability as a Captain is far more than an heavy machinerie enginneer.

To come back on devaluating our profession. A good example is the ex VP of Air Canada who is now at Air France. As he was a VP at Air Canada he created Air Canada Rouge. Lower the FA wages. As the Airline industry hit profit records. We kept the 4 years flat pay at AC, Give some shitty contract to Sky Reg and jazz etc. As they were recording profit record!!
When he came to Air France, Pilots, FA and AME had demands to improve their working conditions. If he was not able to meet them, they were all going on strike. Ben Smith did his maths and saw the company would lose more money if they go on strike than accepting their demand. So He decided to accept them all. To avoid a strike.
He clearly state that Pilot were very respected and he recognized their skills as technical Personnal Inflight. I m not sure he ever say that about Air Canada pilots...

2 Differents company, Same leader but different unions and Coworkers who sticked together to get what they wanted because they value their work.

When you think your job does not worth that much. The Management takes a good note on this. Even as A FO when you start your carreer.
If you begin at 20$/an hour as a green FO it is stilll way too low because when you will be on your years 4th you will not be a young FO anymore. You would be a legitimate senior FO ready to go left seat but the wages would still be way too low because you started super low.
you would get paid 35 - 40$/ hour for a 4 years Dash 8 FO. It is very low. So this wages, even as a starter is way too low because their is no increases with experiences.

As an industry we need to stick together and not have this poor mentality. We need to value our work as a pilot, as a flight instructor, as FA and AME.
Saying that in the old days you had to pay for your own ppc and paid a shitty wages for years so we should stopped whinning and suck it up is not an argument. And I Have 2 questions for you. Did you enjoy your past situation? did you enjoy paying for your ppc and earning a low wages? And because you suffer from it, Why would other would have to suffer from the same things?
Your logic is completly flawed and is not making us progress on better conditions.

Fly safe! Cheers

I think the person that said “what do you expect it’s an entry level job” is probably an AME. Probably a partner or part owner for some flight school / operator in western Canada. This person’s “logic” isn’t flawed, it’s diseased like the rest of the older aerosexuals in Canada keeping things as crap as they are and making things exponentially worse every day they’re still involved.

Oh come on things aren’t that bad

I’m sure I know who this guy is.