Maybe some day this issue will be put to rest

[Sharklasers]

I don’t have a strong opinion either way on this issue anymore.
But I do believe that if the door opened to fly past 65 a majority of guys would stay until the new limit.
I don’t have enough appendages to count how many guys said things like “I would retire at 60 if it wasn’t for the pension hit!” Pre-covid.
Suddenly when the company is removing the pension hit AND paying out guys pensions as if they had stayed to 65 all but a slim minority of those gentlemen had a change of heart and decided that the pension hit wasn’t the reason they were sticking around after all.

Will is affect our career progression? Absolutely. Is there a single thing any line pilot can do to stop it? No. One day the stars will align and right judge or arbitrator will catch this case, icao will change its rules and we will have fly til you die.

Life not fair and if at the end of the day someone jr now has to work 5 more years to reach the top spots because some boomers decided they wanted a few more bonus years at the head of the trough well that’s how it will be.

Ever heard of the saying "puppies grow old and die"? Well, that concept works with pilots too.

One day we are going to be 65. If we don't start standing up for the senior pilots in our industry, we are going to be in that situation at some point too.

Well now that you put it that way let me crack out the worlds tiniest violin.

I would give my left nut to be in the ‘situation’ these boys are in, staring down the barrel of a DB pension (which you likely are aware is ~144000 per year if you retire in 2021 and your fully funded or a paltry ~100000 per year with 20 years of service).

Edited to add:
If you can’t make a go of it on 100k plus after 20 years of being an Air Canada pilot, 2 more years aren’t going to help you a whole lot.

[Raymond Hall]

As with many of these threads on this Forum and others dealing with sensitive issues, there are usually two streams—first, a substantive stream where contributors engage in substantive discussion with respect to the issue(s) raised; second, a facetious, somewhat juvenile stream where those apparently incapable of raising themselves out of the mud engage in personal attacks, based largely upon their own over-riding self-interest. Often that latter stream overtakes the former, robbing those interested in maintaining a higher level of discussion and positive contribution from informed, controversial dialogue.

Candidly, may I suggest that I have endured more than my fair share of slagging and contemptuous allegations about my own motivations and performance. So be it.

With all areas of social change that affect legislation and regulations, there are dynamic aspects and legitimate adjustments that seriously impact people's lives. Age discrimination laws and practice fall into that category, and, as we have seen, not only change from time to time, but have real impact on real jobs.

Two years from now, my tenure practising law in dozens of courts and tribunals in the land up to and including the Supreme Court of Canada, will exceed my tenure at Air Canada (36 years). I offer my insights here in order to give others who have not been so fortunate or who have not had the opportunity to experience other professional engagement, a little perspective of some of that combined experience.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

I don’t have a strong opinion either way on this issue anymore.
But I do believe that if the door opened to fly past 65 a majority of guys would stay until the new limit.
I don’t have enough appendages to count how many guys said things like “I would retire at 60 if it wasn’t for the pension hit!” Pre-covid.
Suddenly when the company is removing the pension hit AND paying out guys pensions as if they had stayed to 65 all but a slim minority of those gentlemen had a change of heart and decided that the pension hit wasn’t the reason they were sticking around after all.

Will is affect our career progression? Absolutely. Is there a single thing any line pilot can do to stop it? No. One day the stars will align and right judge or arbitrator will catch this case, icao will change its rules and we will have fly til you die.

Life not fair and if at the end of the day someone jr now has to work 5 more years to reach the top spots because some boomers decided they wanted a few more bonus years at the head of the trough well that’s how it will be.

Ever heard of the saying "puppies grow old and die"? Well, that concept works with pilots too.

One day we are going to be 65. If we don't start standing up for the senior pilots in our industry, we are going to be in that situation at some point too.

One day we are going to be 65?

LOL What? I would have rather it stayed at 60. Am I the only one who has ZERO intention to fly until I am old, grey and half in the casket? I realize flying is a lot of people's identity, but FFS... get some hobbies and enjoy your old age.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

As with many of these threads on this Forum and others dealing with sensitive issues, there are usually two streams—first, a substantive stream where contributors engage in substantive discussion with respect to the issue(s) raised; second, a facetious, somewhat juvenile stream where those apparently incapable of raising themselves out of the mud engage in personal attacks, based largely upon their own over-riding self-interest. Often that latter stream overtakes the former, robbing those interested in maintaining a higher level of discussion and positive contribution from informed, controversial dialogue.

Candidly, may I suggest that I have endured more than my fair share of slagging and contemptuous allegations about my own motivations and performance. So be it.

With all areas of social change that affect legislation and regulations, there are dynamic aspects and legitimate adjustments that seriously impact people's lives. Age discrimination laws and practice fall into that category, and, as we have seen, not only change from time to time, but have real impact on real jobs.

Two years from now, my tenure practising law in dozens of courts and tribunals in the land up to and including the Supreme Court of Canada, will exceed my tenure at Air Canada (36 years). I offer my insights here in order to give others who have not been so fortunate or who have not had the opportunity to experience other professional engagement, a little perspective of some of that combined experience.

Do you feel extra smart?

[Raymond Hall]

Do you feel extra smart?

I am not sure of the objective of your question, given your prior posts. As I understand wisdom, there is a huge difference between smarts and intelligence. Intelligence is the ability to effectively process information and to reason, while smarts reflects the ability to use one's intelligence combined with one's experiences to take actions that are timely, effective and beneficial. Big difference. So many people have intelligence but not smarts. And vice versa.

To a degree, I would put myself more in the latter category—not so intelligent, but able to undertake useful analysis resulting in effective action, based on knowledge and experience.

I know that I have a different perspective than many, largely based upon my varied experiences combined with my formal education. But do I feel extra smart? No. In many respects, ignorance truly is bliss. I often reflect honestly on the Bob Seger line, "I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then."

There is still a lot of life that is not pleasant for so many. I have a pension. You have a job. Many have neither.

I devote a huge portion of my law practice to working pro bono helping those who have serious legal issues and virtually no financial ability to overcome those problems without help. I am not talking about aviation people there. Real people who have never had the advantages that you or I have had, including a steady job of any kind.

Smarts? I now do much more decision-making analysis than I did in my earlier days, prior to making significant decisions. And I benefit from a much expanded tool set, given my experiences working through truly tough conflicts for my clients.

Nevertheless, before too long, I too will be leaving this world. And I truly hope that when I do, I will have made it just a little bit better for others than it was for me, but more importantly, than it was for my present clients.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

Do you feel extra smart?

I am not sure of the objective of your question, given your prior posts. As I understand wisdom, there is a huge difference between smarts and intelligence. Intelligence is the ability to effectively process information and to reason, while smarts reflects the ability to use one's intelligence combined with one's experiences to take actions that are timely, effective and beneficial. Big difference. So many people have intelligence but not smarts. And vice versa.

To a degree, I would put myself more in the latter category—not so intelligent, but able to undertake useful analysis resulting in effective action, based on knowledge and experience.

I know that I have a different perspective than many, largely based upon my varied experiences combined with my formal education. But do I feel extra smart? No. In many respects, ignorance truly is bliss. I often reflect honestly on the Bob Seger line, "I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then."

There is still a lot of life that is not pleasant for so many. I have a pension. You have a job. Many have neither.

I devote a huge portion of my law practice to working pro bono helping those who have serious legal issues and virtually no financial ability to overcome those problems without help. I am not talking about aviation people there. Real people who have never had the advantages that you or I have had, including a steady job of any kind.

Smarts? I now do much more decision-making analysis than I did in my earlier days, prior to making significant decisions. And I benefit from a much expanded tool set, given my experiences working through truly tough conflicts for my clients.

Nevertheless, before too long, I too will be leaving this world. And I truly hope that when I do, I will have made it just a little bit better for others than it was for me, but more importantly, than it was for my present clients.

[ayseven]

Hard to watch people being miserable at the top of the food chain. Is there anybody who is thankful for their health and life in general, no matter what chronological age?

[imjustlurking]

One day we are going to be 65?

LOL What? I would have rather it stayed at 60. Am I the only one who has ZERO intention to fly until I am old, grey and half in the casket? I realize flying is a lot of people's identity, but FFS... get some hobbies and enjoy your old age.

Great! That's your choice.

Don't force your choice on others.

[tbaylx]

Actually what it says is I don't care about people trying to keep their jobs after 65 and effecting the career progression of 4000 pilots below them. Not just myself.

But keep trying.

Who are you to tell someone when to stop working? You or anyone else aren't' entitled to another pilot's job at any time and certainly not because you think they've made enough money. By that logic lets make everyone over 50 retire so we can hire even more pilots. Your sense of entitlement is spectacular.

You should have that van paid off by the time you’re 72.

About 2 decades sooner than a house in Southern Ontario

[altiplano]

You or anyone else aren't' entitled to another pilot's job at any time

IIRC you didn't always feel that way...

[tbaylx]

You or anyone else aren't' entitled to another pilot's job at any time

IIRC you didn't always feel that way...

You don't recall correctly.

[imjustlurking]

About 2 decades sooner than a house in Southern Ontario

Just spent my years savings at Costco grocery shopping today.

Two decades out of infinite years of debt doesn't sound too bad...

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

You or anyone else aren't' entitled to another pilot's job at any time

IIRC you didn't always feel that way...

You don't recall correctly.

Says the scab who went to fly WestJet metal and routes in fancy paint at bargain basement rates. People like you are the ones who drag this industry down. Enjoy the van life .

[imjustlurking]

Says the scab who went to fly WestJet metal and routes in fancy paint at bargain basement rates. People like you are the ones who drag this industry down. Enjoy the van life .

I don't understand the hate for WestJet.

Last I checked, the WJ forums are free from the incessant bitching and complaining. Think about it for a minute... maybe it's not about the extra $100/day. Sometimes lifestyle plays a big roll in someone's happiness.

[Hangry]

You or anyone else aren't' entitled to another pilot's job at any time

IIRC you didn't always feel that way...

You don't recall correctly.

The scarlet S endures.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

Says the scab who went to fly WestJet metal and routes in fancy paint at bargain basement rates. People like you are the ones who drag this industry down. Enjoy the van life .

I don't understand the hate for WestJet.

Last I checked, the WJ forums are free from the incessant bitching and complaining. Think about it for a minute... maybe it's not about the extra $100/day. Sometimes lifestyle plays a big roll in someone's happiness.

Lol. Yeah that great swoop lifestyle. You know a bunch of swoop pilots including captains left for AC right? 18-20 days a month flying from what I heard. Sounds like a great lifestyle. And guys like that are partly to blame for these working conditions.

Had scabs like him never taken the job in the first place, good chance those fins would be flying around at ML WestJet rates.

[imjustlurking]

Says the scab who went to fly WestJet metal and routes in fancy paint at bargain basement rates. People like you are the ones who drag this industry down. Enjoy the van life .

I don't understand the hate for WestJet.

Last I checked, the WJ forums are free from the incessant bitching and complaining. Think about it for a minute... maybe it's not about the extra $100/day. Sometimes lifestyle plays a big roll in someone's happiness.

Lol. Yeah that great swoop lifestyle. You know a bunch of swoop pilots including captains left for AC right? 18-20 days a month flying from what I heard. Sounds like a great lifestyle. And guys like that are partly to blame for these working conditions.

Had scabs like him never taken the job in the first place, good chance those fins would be flying around at ML WestJet rates.

No, no, I said WestJet, not Poop.

We all have things we're ashamed of [cough][cough] Rouge [cough] Zip [cough] Tango

[altiplano]

I don't understand the hate for WestJet.

Last I checked, the WJ forums are free from the incessant bitching and complaining. Think about it for a minute... maybe it's not about the extra $100/day. Sometimes lifestyle plays a big roll in someone's happiness.

Lol. Yeah that great swoop lifestyle. You know a bunch of swoop pilots including captains left for AC right? 18-20 days a month flying from what I heard. Sounds like a great lifestyle. And guys like that are partly to blame for these working conditions.

Had scabs like him never taken the job in the first place, good chance those fins would be flying around at ML WestJet rates.

No, no, I said WestJet, not Poop.

We all have things we're ashamed of [cough][cough] Rouge [cough] Zip [cough] Tango

In my experience, when you don't know what people are talking about, sometimes it's a good idea to just not post.

[imjustlurking]

Lol. Yeah that great swoop lifestyle. You know a bunch of swoop pilots including captains left for AC right? 18-20 days a month flying from what I heard. Sounds like a great lifestyle. And guys like that are partly to blame for these working conditions.

Had scabs like him never taken the job in the first place, good chance those fins would be flying around at ML WestJet rates.

No, no, I said WestJet, not Poop.

We all have things we're ashamed of [cough][cough] Rouge [cough] Zip [cough] Tango

In my experience, when you don't know what people are talking about, sometimes it's a good idea to just not post.

Says Altiplano, the AvCanada resident anti-vaxxer.

[altiplano]

Yawn... Hardly.

Grow up.

You don't know what we were talking about, get over it.

[Raymond Hall]

I could be mistaken, but I had the impression that this thread was about the arbitration decision regarding alleged discrimination on the basis of termination of employment based on acquiring the age of 65...

[imjustlurking]

I could be mistaken, but I had the impression that this thread was about the arbitration decision regarding alleged discrimination on the basis of termination of employment based on acquiring the age of 65...

Welcome to AvCanada. On this forum, every thread that is longer than one page will inevitably hit at least one of the following topics:

• WestJet/Encore/Swoop Sucks
• Air Canada/Rouge/Jazz sucks
• COVID

[Raymond Hall]

Welcome to AvCanada. On this forum, every thread that is longer than one page will inevitably hit at least one of the following topics:

• WestJet/Encore/Swoop Sucks
• Air Canada/Rouge/Jazz sucks
• COVID

You didn't add (and should have added) bullet point #4: Avoiding the facts and issues by engaging in slander of those who post on-issue...