Filing suit against AvCanada.

[greenwich]

You know the old sayings: "It's a free country" and "freedom of speech".

Well, how come any time 'certain' companies are mentioned in threads on AvCanada OR when peoples names come-up in threads on AvCanada, they threaten to file a suit???

I'm sure the moderators/owners of this site have talked to lawyers, and I'm sure they have an answers, but I think it's total B.S.

Look all around the internet and you'll find HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Chat-Sites where people openly debate and discuss every issue imaginable. Politics, sex, sports, hollywood, race, religion...it's all there!!

So how come AvCanada is different...or should I say...how come aviation in Canada is different?

Those of you who know me know that I'm not an advocate of 'bashing' companies or people on this site, in fact I'm outright against it.

BUT if company 'A' is mentioned in a negative light on a thread on AvCanada, what the hell gives them the right to threaten legal action? And on what legal ground would they stand on?

I have a few family friends that are lawyers...I think I'm going to do a bit more research.

G

[marktheone]

Grenwich I do agree with you. Here's maybe another way of looking at it though. Could our thoughts and opinions not be conveyed the same way without identifying companies? We all know which companies are slime and which are not.

If company "a" is mass marketing PPC's then it is the same thoughts and opinions down the road at company "b" that is also doing it. I agree with you, but someone somewhere must have said there is a liability issue so here we sit.

[ice ice baby]

Maybe Joe (Avcanada) needs to set up a company to "own" avcanada in some foreign country with really loose laws (Paul Martin style) about that sort libel / slander / defamation or whatever you want to call it etc.

[. .]

it's not whether or not avcanada stands on legal ground. It does. It's the amount of time and money that would be wasted to prove that everything is legal.

Anyone who'd like to sue Avcanada can take the following steps:

1: Punch yourself in the face
2: Repeat step 1 until you cause brain damage

[Johnny]

BUT if company 'A' is mentioned in a negative light on a thread on AvCanada, what the hell gives them the right to threaten legal action? And on what legal ground would they stand on?

In the legal world, the suing body would be pursuing AvCanada for libel and/or slander.

In order for something to be considered as libel, it must be published and it must be untrue. Two problems arise here for guys like Joe (AvCan). First, he would require incredible resources to establish the veracity of a lot of the statements/claims made on this website (e.g. not worthwhile).

The second issue is that as a publishing entity, AvCanada is responsible, beit personally or corporately held.

Then comes the issue of slander. If it can be determined that the information being shared is true and completely accurate, but is being disseminated in a manner that misrepresents the truth or is attempting to unjustly burden its target, the legal system can decide this behaviour is slanderous and penalties may be assessed.

Since AvCanada (and the internet, in general) is an anonymous organization, it would be very difficult for Management to defer any legal costs on to the offending person(s). Even if you use your real name or you have announced your true identity on the board, there is still little or no proof of who you are in the real (legal) world.

In the real world, legal penalties and civil damages have to be paid by the parties against whom they are levied. Since the web owner most likely has neither the desire, the time, nor the means to chase down anonymous internet posters or their sources, it's easier just to "nip them in the bud" and cut the threads off early.

To sum it up, this place is all about open exchange, but not in a manner that endangers people's careers or their livelihoods. There are other people whose job it is to police the aviation world. Whether they do that job effectively or not is a subject for another day, but it's not up to us.

In essence, what the moderators are trying to say when they remove certain threads is that libel or slander have no place here, in any form. If a thread is started that they feel is going down that path, they're going to pull it for review. I think, with respect to these types of posts, the moderators have been quite fair in their actions.

[shitdisturber]

The other issue that Johnny doesn't mention is an interesting quirk of our legal system. You know that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing? It doesn't apply in civil cases; the reverse is true in fact. Meaning Joe would have to spend a great deal of time and money proving his innocence, hardly worth the hassle.

[grouchy]

Imagine having a hobby and trying to give something back like Joe is and then having to constantly worry about guys who can't think for themselves or at least think before they post.
Lots of guys have been hacking the moderators here lately but I would think there would be no need for moderators if people could consider the other side of the equation before they post. Use your heads or at least for anyone who has been around here long enough you have seen the same responses many times to nasty statements, it should come as no surprise that the owner has to cover his ass.
I remember Totavia, anyone else? We lost a good resource in that website but this one is even greater.

[hazatude]

So there is legal precedent on internet messageboard lawsuits?

Please give me some details...

[EI-EIO]

Haz

even preparing to defend yourself against a lawsuit costs money even if it never goes to court. Why should avcanada take that heat especially when they don't charge for people to post?

since you asked:
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provid ... ID=5168561

[Jet Dog]

Can't avcanada have a waiver, something along the lines of not responsible for personal information from individuals.. really the person who should be sued is the person doing the slandering, not avcanada... butthe legal system is filled with loop holes so who knows

[No more BS]

Forget all this legality stuff.

Here lies the solution:

Post whatever you have to say against any company, but change the name of the company you are referring to just enough so people can recognize it (remember aviation is a small world), but that it's not the real name of that company.

You just cut the legality of it all because you "aren't really" referring to the said company.

Example: Air Canada could be "Air Red Maple"
Ministic could be Molistic, Bearskin could be "Bearclaw" and so on...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody can even touch you with that...

Now, let's hear it all...

[godsrcrazy]

I think Avcanada is held in the same regard as a news paper. Papers will not post or print anything anonymous. That being said if they have a legitimate source they well step forward to sell a paper and pay the legal department. If you wish to pay for an add they will post it if they have a legitamite trail to the source. I doubt their would be any threats towards Avcanada if people were forced to use there own name when they want to bad mouth someone. I personaly think if you have something bad to say have the balls to use your real name or keep it to yourself. Lets not kid our selfs here when most people post something it's not for the betterment of others. It is personal satisfaction. How long do you think it would take to get a call from a lawyer if companies start posting names of them of us that have screw up. I know one thing when I got let go from my last job many years ago It would have not taken 2 seconds calling a lawyer if my last employer would have posted my name some were our called someone saying stay away from this screw up he cost me $$$$$. Thankfully I found an employer that was willing to give me a second chance. If Avcanada was around years ago I would have posted $hit about that company even though I deserved getting the axe. It only took me years to realise that I did deserve it. However after years of growing up it was probably the best thing that ever happened to me. Lets just say I needed knocked down a peg or 2. Face it we all live in glass houses here. There is nothing wrong with asking questions our discussing problems without devolging any names. Yes there are some slime for employers but face it there is also some pretty slimy pilots out here should we post there names as well

[Canus Chinookus]

if Avcanada were a 'private' forum... would that not make it all better?

[LH]

A few notes:

1) "Libel" is written......."slander" is spoken. Ergo, "libel" is the only issue to be addressed here.

2) The statement that "in civil court you are guilty and must prove your innocence" is factually and legally incorrect. The courts are hearing the case of both sides and are neutral because they don't care yet and haven't seen the so-called evidence from both sides presented yet. Therefore, BOTH sides present their evidence and argue their cases. The side with the best and therefore normally the most expensive legal counsel usually wins. You therefore get the amount of justice that you can afford. If you can't afford much justice, then "button your lip" or be deemed stupid. NEVER confuse the word "justice" with the word "truth". The amount of truth that is allowed to be presented in a courtroom depends largely on the ability of both legal counsels. The resultant decision of a judge, based on the amount of "truth" he has been allowed to see, is what is termed "justice".

[hazatude]

We are breaking new ground here and making history with every post. I'm so excited!

[No more BS]

Here's 2 other names I thought could be useful:


Airsprint => Airsprout

Perimeter => Merrymeter


(I might have taken too much omega 3)

TGIF

[oldncold]

[EI-EIO]

to answer the original question (what happened to it's a free country) - those freedoms such as the American First Amendment only apply to government action. No such thing as free speech where private citizens are concerned, the laws of libel, slander etc. apply.

Remember while all of you are hiding behind usernames, the site owner is the first person to get served because their ISP will give up their name - they don't take cash from "Mr I P Freely"

[hazatude]

The fact is that Avcanada(site owner) is the only one on the line here. Every poster to Avcanada could be rolling through Russian proxies and thus remain truly anonymous. That's why we have the rules.

[Dust Devil]

Can't avcanada have a waiver, something along the lines of not responsible for personal information from individuals.. really the person who should be sued is the person doing the slandering, not avcanada... butthe legal system is filled with loop holes so who knows

Just because someone states that they are not responsible does not make it so. If I told you I'm not responsible for sh****** on your lawn then I go ahead and Sh** on your lawn I'm sure I could still be held responsible for the said Sh**

[i aint gettin rich]

I think that this is all stupid. I do agree of the ideas mentioned, but am so disappointed that we should have to change the names, screen what we say. THe company(s) that are wanting to sue, man give your head a shake. Your running multi-million dollar airplanes.. thousands of peoples lives in your care and you want to sue avcanada for what disgruntled workers say about you. Maybe your lucky the pilots you treat like S$&@ aren't suing you. Maybe Im going to sue you after you sue avcanada, for ruining the site I used to voice my opinions. Hold old are these CEO's and management. Anyway I cant write anymore on this.. making me sick to my stomach.
Keep on trucking everybody. We'll wake up form the nightmare on day.

[hazatude]

I think that this is all stupid. I do agree of the ideas mentioned, but am so disappointed that we should have to change the names, screen what we say. THe company(s) that are wanting to sue, man give your head a shake. Your running multi-million dollar airplanes.. thousands of peoples lives in your care and you want to sue avcanada for what disgruntled workers say about you. Maybe your lucky the pilots you treat like S$&@ aren't suing you. Maybe Im going to sue you after you sue avcanada, for ruining the site I used to voice my opinions. Hold old are these CEO's and management. Anyway I cant write anymore on this.. making me sick to my stomach.
Keep on trucking everybody. We'll wake up form the nightmare on day.

TRUTH SPEAKER!

[Jet Dog]

Dust Devil you missed my point, its NOT avcanada itself making the statements or the owner of avcanada, but the USERS posting the comments that who should and only should be prositcuted..... so yes if YOU shat on my lawn you would get sued not avcanada cause YOU said YOU shat on my lawn on an avcanada post. And please clean it up... the stench is really bothersome, thanks!

[Right Seat Captain]

Dust Devil you missed my point, its NOT avcanada itself making the statements or the owner of avcanada, but the USERS posting the comments that who should and only should be prositcuted..... so yes if YOU shat on my lawn you would get sued not avcanada cause YOU said YOU shat on my lawn on an avcanada post. And please clean it up... the stench is really bothersome, thanks!

So what shoould AvCanada say when the lawyers come a knockin'?
Give them your IP info?

[Dust Devil]

Dust Devil you missed my point, its NOT avcanada itself making the statements or the owner of avcanada, but the USERS posting the comments that who should and only should be prositcuted..... so yes if YOU shat on my lawn you would get sued not avcanada cause YOU said YOU shat on my lawn on an avcanada post. And please clean it up... the stench is really bothersome, thanks!

"should" is a great word. however the law doesn't recognize "should" And I doubt the law is gonna change just so people can wine and bitch on avcanada. Fact is avcanada can do what he wants. It's his board. Suck it up.