Encore Hiring 250 hrs

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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
Agreed!
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Can Pilot »

Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
+1

It would be a great thing to see in Canada.
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digits_
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by digits_ »

Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
But it's terrible for the pilots working at the smaller operators... Even less leverage for safety or wage improvements...
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by JeppsOnFire »

digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:00 pm
Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
But it's terrible for the pilots working at the smaller operators... Even less leverage for safety or wage improvements...
Possibly. Although I don’t think there has ever been a time when a 250hr pilot had any leverage. Ever.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by OneYonge »

Can Pilot wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:58 am
Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
+1

It would be a great thing to see in Canada.
That's just artificially creating a shortage.

If you have more airplanes/flights than there are viable pilots around, you'd just have to get rid of some planes...because the pilots have priced themselves out of the market. Less revenue and opportunity for everyone.

Basic demand/supply and free market already controls all of this already, unless there is a good reason for the regulators to come in.
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digits_
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by digits_ »

JeppsOnFire wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:03 pm
digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:00 pm
Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
But it's terrible for the pilots working at the smaller operators... Even less leverage for safety or wage improvements...
Possibly. Although I don’t think there has ever been a time when a 250hr pilot had any leverage. Ever.
No, but 1000 hour pilots sure did the last couple of years before covid.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Bede »

OneYonge wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:17 pm
That's just artificially creating a shortage.
Well yes, but with the protection of the public in mind.

Why do you think that the CCFP and RCPSC won't accredit private medical schools? Same goes for law schools. It's in their interest to ensure that only the best get to play.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Float_lover »

In Europe, there barely have any regional business as we know, most of the pilots start on 320 and they don't have more accidents than us.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by goldeneagle »

Cavalier44 wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:55 pm
marlakai wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:44 pm
Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
:roll:
Why are you rolling your eyes? He's right. As long as airlines are able to take 250-hour pilots out of flight schools and put them into the right seat of transport category aircraft, wages and working conditions will remain suppressed in this country.
Ah yes, free market is good, government intervention / control is bad, except it would be good to have some form of artificial government regulation that increases pilot wages. Even better if you can somehow wrap it up disguised as a 'safety' thing.

Wages in the industry will go up just as soon as folks stop taking jobs at the offered rate. As long as there are more willing applicants than there are jobs, there is absolutely no reason for the wage to increase.

If you think the wages are to low, but you took the job anyways, you ARE the problem, not the solution.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

The barrier to entry in the US is hours. The barrier to entry in Europe is money to pay for the very expensive training ( approximately $200,000 CAD for zero to airline hire) mandated by the regulators. Either way government policy has created the situation.

The incident/accident rate in the EU is definitely a bit higher in the EU but it is hard to get an apples to apples comparison. Personally I believe that you can't train experience, particularly when you have to make inflight decisions without anybody else in the airplane to help you, so I think requiring ATPL hours is a good thing.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by twa22 »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:20 am The barrier to entry in the US is hours. The barrier to entry in Europe is money to pay for the very expensive training ( approximately $200,000 CAD for zero to airline hire) mandated by the regulators. Either way government policy has created the situation.

The incident/accident rate in the EU is definitely a bit higher in the EU but it is hard to get an apples to apples comparison. Personally I believe that you can't train experience, particularly when you have to make inflight decisions without anybody else in the airplane to help you, so I think requiring ATPL hours is a good thing.
The European Union has a much lower accident rate compared to Canada, per 1 million departures for schecudeled commerical services with aircraft over 5.7 tons

https://www.icao.int/safety/iStars/Page ... stics.aspx

All you need to do is select European Union and Canada in the drop down menu to get the graphs

So no, Europe DEFINIETLY DOES NOT have a higher accident rate...

Also, Canada has a higher accident rate then the world, on average, in the last 11 years according to ICAO stats
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Cavalier44 »

goldeneagle wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:38 am Wages in the industry will go up just as soon as folks stop taking jobs at the offered rate. As long as there are more willing applicants than there are jobs, there is absolutely no reason for the wage to increase.
Never going to happen in this country, unfortunately. There are too few barriers to entry. Even with the costs of obtaining a CPL + MIFR going up sharply, financing is readily available, and "puppy mill" flight schools will continually churn out 250-hour pilots as it's good business for them to do so. The number of potential candidates being trained is not tied to the actual demand for new pilots - a surplus has always existed of fresh graduates seeking entry-level jobs, even in 2019 when we were at peak "pilot shortage".

There are two issues with the scenario you're depicting:

The first issue is human nature - many people get into this job because they're passionate about aviation and they love to fly. Unfortunately, for many, their priorities rank "flying airplanes" higher than "earning a living wage". This allows entry-level airlines to offer rock bottom wages because, for every job posting that is created, they receive hundreds if not thousands of applications. Prior to the "pilot shortage", these were northern airlines flying Twin Otters, King Airs, and Metroliners.

Now we have major regional airlines like Encore and Jazz realizing that they can tap into the same pool of ultra-cheap labour by giving new pilots the opportunity to skip that experience entirely. If you have the option of moving to Yellowknife and flying a King Air for $40k/year, or staying at home in Toronto and living in mom and dad's basement flying a Q400 for the same wage, which are you going to pick?

The second issue is economic - it's supply and demand. Demand for experienced pilots will always exist; even during COVID, it hasn't been impossible to find a job if you have the right combination of experience (i.e. transport-category jet PIC) and desirable type ratings (Airbus or Boeing). Demand for inexperienced pilots is low, and you have a large number of 250-hour pilots fighting over a small number of entry-level positions. They can't stop taking jobs at the offered rate even if they wanted to, regardless of whether it's a Q400 or a King Air, because if their peers continue to do so, they'll be the ones out of a job.
goldeneagle wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:38 am Ah yes, free market is good, government intervention / control is bad, except it would be good to have some form of artificial government regulation that increases pilot wages. Even better if you can somehow wrap it up disguised as a 'safety' thing.
I don't necessarily buy the argument that government intervention or regulation is, by default, a bad thing - especially given the nature of our industry. With that being said, if it works to pilots' advantage in this country in terms of tipping the supply and demand scale to our advantage, we should seize the opportunity. If wrapping it in the disguise of safety makes it a more appealing sell to the bureaucrats who create the regulations then so be it.
goldeneagle wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:38 am If you think the wages are too low, but you took the job anyways, you ARE the problem, not the solution.
Ah, so we agree with each other then. What I'm saying is that people are compelled to take these jobs despite knowing that the wages are too low. Creating new regulations is the simplest way to prevent that from happening.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

twa22 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:12 am
Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:20 am The barrier to entry in the US is hours. The barrier to entry in Europe is money to pay for the very expensive training ( approximately $200,000 CAD for zero to airline hire) mandated by the regulators. Either way government policy has created the situation.

The incident/accident rate in the EU is definitely a bit higher in the EU Personally I believe that you can't train experience, particularly when you have to make inflight decisions without anybody else in the airplane to help you, so I think requiring ATPL hours is a good thing.
The European Union has a much lower accident rate compared to Canada, per 1 million departures for schecudeled commerical services with aircraft over 5.7 tons

https://www.icao.int/safety/iStars/Page ... stics.aspx

All you need to do is select European Union and Canada in the drop down menu to get the graphs

So no, Europe DEFINIETLY DOES NOT have a higher accident rate...

Also, Canada has a higher accident rate then the world, on average, in the last 11 years according to ICAO stats
but it is hard to get an apples to apples comparison.
I learned in my 3rd year University statistics course you can get statistics to show any pretty much any result you want. However I stand by my contention. First I specified accidents and incidents. The only data that matters is the rate per 100,000 hours of flying, not the absolute number. Also only one year of data is not definitive as the overall rate of accidents and incidents by Western airlines is still quite low. The five year trend is a better indication.

From what I can see the data does suggest that EU carriers have a higher rate of tail strikes and heavy landings. This suggests but of course does not prove that pilot skills, or more properly the lack of same, are more prevalent in EU carriers which of course can have very inexperienced FO's.

But again the overall rate for incidents is still low so causation is difficult to prove. On a purely personal subjective observation, my experience is that flight hours does corelate with overall competence and the ability to assess and adapt to what is happening in the airplane. I have also had informal conversations with regional airline Captains who say they have had to fly both sides of the cockpit with very junior FO's, something that did not usually happen in the past when new hires had 4 figure hours

In any case the EU has no choice but to train zero to hero 250 hr guys/gals because the GA 406 and commercial 702/703 sector effectively doesn't exist anymore so there is no way for a new CPL to gain experience in smaller aircraft as is the case in North America
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Launchpad1 »

Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
I totally agree with you.

My only concern though would be are there enough low time Pilot jobs in Canada to enable enough Pilots to get to 1500 hours to fill the industries needs?

That was a long sentence ^
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by scdriver »

Launchpad1 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:25 pm
Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
I totally agree with you.

My only concern though would be are there enough low time Pilot jobs in Canada to enable enough Pilots to get to 1500 hours to fill the industries needs?

That was a long sentence ^
I think a 1500 hr rule would certainly be better for regional pilots, but I think any low time pilots would get boned even harder than they do now. In non covid times there would be more pilots that would’ve been at jazz/encore/etc at smaller operators waiting for that 1500, so even less spots for low timers still with the same supply. Flight schools sure as shit aren’t gonna give out less cpls… And I’d bet wages for 250 hour wonders would go down (if that’s even possible). It’d be a real bottleneck situation long term with regionals desperate for pilots, a shitload of new cpls wanting a job, but only a few seats to build those 1500. No doubt would result in a loooot of 1500 hr instructors in a q400
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Skyfoxal »

Experience doesn’t pay in Canadian 705, hopefully the border opens for the US carriers and the 250 wonders can run jazz/encore
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by goldeneagle »

Bede wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:30 am
OneYonge wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:17 pm
That's just artificially creating a shortage.
Well yes, but with the protection of the public in mind.
Bullshit. You are just trying to create an artificial constraint that would increase wages for pilots, then wrap it up and sell it as some sort of 'safety' thing, solving an apparent problem which in reality doesn't exist.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Admiral Benson »

Bullshit. You are just trying to create an artificial constraint that would increase wages for pilots, then wrap it up and sell it as some sort of 'safety' thing, solving an apparent problem which in reality doesn't exist.
[/quote]

Well said. I never understood the people that preach the 1500 hour rule as some beacon of safety, and they usually quote their famous Colgan air example where the first officer had.....wait for it....over 2200 hours....so what does a 1500 hour rule solve again?
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by link821 »

It’s been neat to see a few regional carriers in the states offering sizeable bonuses to new hires with previous operating experience outside of instructing or fresh out of school. Might be a bit to much of a pipe dream for aviation in Canada to do something as forward thinking or progressive as paying new hires an extra bit more for having previous 703/4/5 experience instead of the same as 250hr or 1500hr instructor. Heck might even motivate a few more pilots a year to go out and get their feet wet..or maybe it won’t, either way starting wages in this industry need a big bump.

Even wages at the top are falling behind inflation I’d add.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by sullecpt »

Well said. I never understood the people that preach the 1500 hour rule as some beacon of safety, and they usually quote their famous Colgan air example where the first officer had.....wait for it....over 2200 hours....so what does a 1500 hour rule solve again?
A US National Transport Safety Board (NTSB) investigation into the crash of Continental connecting flight 3407 in February 2009 has heard that the co-pilot was not adequately rested before commencing duty.

Investigators have cited fatigue as a likely contributor to the crash of the Dash 8 aircraft, operated by Colgan Air, which took place near Buffalo, New York, killing 50 people.

Co-pilot, Rebecca Shaw spent the previous night commuting from her Seattle home to her duty base at Newark International Airport in the jumpseat of two FedEx flights.

On February 11, Shaw woke between 09:00 and 10:00 PST. She left Seattle at around 8pm PST and flew to Memphis before flying to Newark where she arrived at approximately 06:30 EST.

Shaw, 24, had been living with her parents in Seattle and commuting to Newark for the 13 months she was employed by Colgan. Investigators have suggested that her low wages precluded her from living in the New York area.

It is claimed that Shaw often slept overnight on the crew room couch, despite this being against company policy.

Flight Captain, Marvin Renslow, had also commuted to Newark from his home near Tampa, Florida, prior to the flight. Login records from Colgan’s scheduling computer indicate that he accessed the system at 3 am and 7.30 am on the morning of the accident.

According to NTSB investigators, 93 of Colgan’s 137 Newark-based pilots commute to work by air. Colgan Air representatives have stated that it is the responsibility of crew to be fit for duty.

The crew were scheduled to report at 1 pm on February 12 but the first two flights of the day were cancelled due to high winds. Flight 3407 was readied for its scheduled 7.45 pm take-off time but did not receive clearance until 9:18 pm. The accident occurred at approximately 10:16pm.

Investigators have also pointed to shortfalls in Captain Renslow’s training as possibly contributing to the crash, which came after an aircraft stall. Renslow had not received hands-on training in the Dash 8’s stick pusher, a safety device activated when the craft stalls. He had, however, been trained in stick pusher operation for other aircraft.

sources: Associated Press, CNN, Seattle Times
http://www.clockworkresearch.com/fatigu ... air-crash/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the pilots had been paid enough to not have to commute from mom and dads and sleep on couches, perhaps fatigue may not have been the underlying cause. That's the point of the 1500 hr rule. Weed out the operators who cant pay a living wage. Sound familiar? How many kids these days leave flight school in Canada with massive debt and as adults live with their parents? I personally know a bunch, and a few others who sleep on couches. You have to be blind to not see this as an issue. We are way behind the USA, this rule made live so much better for all the guys I've talked to south of the border. But hey, if you cant see that I dont know what to tell you.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by sullecpt »

Encore pays well enough for a 250 hr wonder imo. There are way worse jobs. I really think the 1500 hour rule was awesome for pilots in the US, but that's a whole other thread.

I'm more interested in the fact Encore thinks there is a shortage coming again. Wages and conditions across the board will surely improve. Its a good sign. We can debate a 250 hr pilots experience all day long, bottom line is that its the new norm.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Launchpad1 »

I think a 1500 hr rule would certainly be better for regional pilots, but I think any low time pilots would get boned even harder than they do now. In non covid times there would be more pilots that would’ve been at jazz/encore/etc at smaller operators waiting for that 1500, so even less spots for low timers still with the same supply. Flight schools sure as shit aren’t gonna give out less cpls… And I’d bet wages for 250 hour wonders would go down (if that’s even possible). It’d be a real bottleneck situation long term with regionals desperate for pilots, a shitload of new cpls wanting a job, but only a few seats to build those 1500. No doubt would result in a loooot of 1500 hr instructors in a q400
True and if the conditions get even worse then there will probably be less people willing to put up with all the harsh conditions.

The US just has more ways to get that 1500 hours and even they struggle with having to stick to that rule.

There just needs to be a genuine serious demand vs supply scenario in order to push up wages. I do believe that is coming. The next couple of years there will probably be a huge Pilot shortage.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by kiaszceski »

sullecpt wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:28 pm Encore pays well enough for a 250 hr wonder imo. There are way worse jobs. I really think the 1500 hour rule was awesome for pilots in the US, but that's a whole other thread.

I'm more interested in the fact Encore thinks there is a shortage coming again. Wages and conditions across the board will surely improve. It's a good sign. We can debate a 250 hr pilots experience all day long, bottom line is that its the new norm.
Right, then is the pay enough for a 3000 hr wonder?
Nobody says there will be a shortage. Do you really think a 250hr pilot will be hired over a 2500 or 3500 hr 703 captain or a 1500hrs 704 FO?
There is no shortage unless the wages improve more than the inflation, there.is.no.shortage. Period.

So the question is, are the regionals paying enough for those profiles?
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by co-joe »

Big ups to Dave P, for being here year after year to give his real world, down to earth replies about WJ. We all respect him, but for me, a 705 airline actively recruiting 250 hour pilots is a move with one purpose and one purpose only. To keep wages and working conditions low. The more competitive the market is, the more wages should go up just as a natural progression. That's not happening, so lowering the hiring bar is the only way forward. Jazz has a big head start because of their connection to the big College programs, Encore is just playing catch up.

For a 250 hour grad, it's a way better option than literally any of the companies I worked for over the 15 years between graduating and getting a 705 job. Not one of hem can hold a candle to the lifestyle of an Encore pilot, and new grads would be stupid not to go.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by pitottubey »

co-joe wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:40 pm Big ups to Dave P, for being here year after year to give his real world, down to earth replies about WJ. We all respect him, but for me, a 705 airline actively recruiting 250 hour pilots is a move with one purpose and one purpose only. To keep wages and working conditions low. The more competitive the market is, the more wages should go up just as a natural progression. That's not happening, so lowering the hiring bar is the only way forward. Jazz has a big head start because of their connection to the big College programs, Encore is just playing catch up.

For a 250 hour grad, it's a way better option than literally any of the companies I worked for over the 15 years between graduating and getting a 705 job. Not one of hem can hold a candle to the lifestyle of an Encore pilot, and new grads would be stupid not to go.
I feel like everything you said makes perfect sense. Encore I'm sure would rather lower exp. requirements then have operating costs rise. It's a win for pilots either way, that they don't have to languish working bottom tier jobs for 15 years like yourself until they get a 705 job. They can almost go straight to encore from flight training, or maybe work like 6 months as an instructor and then go. And if WJ or AC mainline does the same thing, were really shortening wait times to get that good salary, pensions ect.
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